Wheel Nut Reminder

[smudgasmiff]

Morning, Just a reminder to check wheel nuts, passed a caravan on the hard shoulder M42 yesterday junction 9/10. Nearside wheel had come off, Driver/Passenger appeared OK, I would imagine a bit shook up, so do check them, a couple of minuets checking can save hours waiting for breakdown service.

[DeeTee]

Morning, Just a reminder to check wheel nuts, passed a caravan on the hard shoulder M42 yesterday junction 9/10. Nearside wheel had come off, Driver/Passenger appeared OK, I would imagine a bit shook up, so do check them, a couple of minuets checking can save hours waiting for breakdown service.

A timely reminder though most caravan wheels do not have wheel nuts. They are bolted to the wheel hub.

[F185]

Well done for pointing that one out DeeTee, but I think we all know what smudgasmiff meant.

[Capricorn12]

Very important job so long as it is done correctly. Just check that the torque wrench clicks when set to the correct torque. Do not release the nuts/bolts as this would mean having to recheck them again in another 50 miles or so, as advised after a service.

[blondchaser]

***** wheel bolts!!! Why on earth did car/van makers change from wheel nuts??????

[DeeTee]

The industry have been recommending and advising for many years now, and certainly before the Alutech range was launched, that users should frequently check the torque of the caravan wheels using a torque wrench. Unfortunately some users choose do as they think fit and ignore the industry advice. A case of I will do as I want not as you say.

[JCloughie]

The industry have been recommending and advising for many years now, and certainly before the Alutech range was launched, that users should frequently check the torque of the caravan wheels using a torque wrench. Unfortunately some users choose do as they think fit and ignore the industry advice. A case of I will do as I want not as you say.

 

 

I promise you, with the exception of a small paragraph in the vans instructions I would not have known had it not been for forums such as this. The Industry did NOTHING to inform me.

 

I am not using it as an excuse and reason for my wheel detachment, because I did know and did do it, but not because the 'industry' made any attempt to inform me.

 

All previous vans that I have had, including new vans came with no recommendation re torqueing, I have treated them in the same manner as my cars. Did a lot of my own servicing. Never a problem, including other vans with alloy wheels.

 

Also, not just the most recent service place who did not mention the need my previous one did not either.

 

Just reading posts on this forum and you will soon gather that there is a high proportion of owners who do not know, though some do know but choose to do nothing about it.

 

As I said before, if they were serious they would supply a wrench and ensure all who purchase new or from a dealer are instructed in its use. But this would not be good for sales.

 

How are you suggesting the industry passed the word onto prospective and existing customers?

 

 

John

Edited January 25, 2015 by JCloughie

[Black Grouse]

The industry have been recommending and advising for many years now, and certainly before the Alutech range was launched, that users should frequently check the torque of the caravan wheels using a torque wrench. Unfortunately some users choose do as they think fit and ignore the industry advice. A case of I will do as I want not as you say.

Standard advice is simply to recheck the torque after 50 miles after wheel refitment/torquing - I've never seen any recommendation for "frequent checks".

 

How often are "frequent checks" - every 50 miles - daily - weekly - monthly - annually ?

Edited January 25, 2015 by Black Grouse

[DeeTee]

JCloughie

 

Your response indicates to me that the so-called widespread problem of wheel detachment may not be as widespread as is being alleged. It seems clear that in many cases of wheel detachment it is down to operator error either through ignorance of the industry's recommended practice, relying on inappropriate wheel bolt tightness indicators or even wilfully ignoring best practice.

 

As I indicated in your wheel detachment topic, there were many postings in various forums about what was described as the Bailey wheel detachment problem and the topic was aired in the CC magazine with, if I recall correctly, the industry recommendations to reduce the possibility of wheel detachment. The recommended protocol for checking wheel tightness is described. on page 16 of the CC caravan tyres and wheels booklet, which is available on line to CC members. As far I am aware that advice has been in the booklet for many years and I believe pre-dates the earlier Bailey wheel detachment saga.

 

DeeTee

Edited January 25, 2015 by DeeTee

[DeeTee]

Standard advice is simply to recheck the torque after 50 miles after wheel refitment/torquing - I've never seen any recommendation for "frequent checks".

 

How often are "frequent checks" - every 50 miles - daily - weekly - monthly - annually ?

With respect I was paraphrasing as recommendations appear to vary in recommended frequency. As shown in the following quote from page 16 of the booklet in my previous post.

 

After a wheel has been refitted, always recheck the torque after 20 -30 miles use or 20 -30 minutes travelling. Even if properly torqued up, it is occasionally possible for fixings to loosen should the wheel „bed in‟ on the hub.

[Black Grouse]

With respect I was paraphrasing as recommendations appear to vary in recommended frequency. As shown in the following quote from page 16 of the booklet in my previous post.

I took "frequency" to mean repeated checks at set intervals.

[The 2 Tops]

John, I understand your criticism about owners, when buying a caravan, not being provided with clear,

unmissable instructions in the need to use a reliable torque wrench when fitting the wheel bolts

because, when on the road, this is one operation where the owner cannot guarantee that he or she will

not at some time have no alternative but to do the job themselves.

For myself it wasn't a problem. Being in engineering development for over 30 years, and one of my

duties being that of training production operatives in the use of torque wrenches, I have to admit

that it had never occurred to me how owners have been kept 'in the dark' when going through the hand

over procedure - that is, until you made the point on here.

Thinking back, the same thing happened when I bought my last two cars (new), the hand over was less

thorough than with our caravans, and torque values were left for the new owner (me) to find out from

the handbook - as was where to find the small pack of kit supplied that represented hand tools.

 

It's all very well for people like myself, but there must be a great number of buyers who really

need good, reliable guidance - not have to wait until being stuck out in the wilderness with all

the disadvantages that weather and terrain can throw at you.

[milton]

I thought this topic was about overloading corner steadies. Instead of hijacking the op's post why not discuss wheel nuts in the topic that is already running on this subject

[JCloughie]

I thought this topic was about overloading corner steadies. Instead of hijacking the op's post why not discuss wheel nuts in the topic that is already running on this subject

Sorry, you are dead right. (In my defence I blame Dee Tee for starting it). (True I should not have replied).

 

Dee Tee, I don't know how you derived that from what I said. I have no idea how widespread or if by make, chassis type or country. I simply mean that I believe both sellers and manufacturers have an obligation to properly instruct customers in the safe use of their product. It is not sufficient to expect knowledge by osmosis.

 

Also, I believe the Bailey handbook says 'before each trip'.

 

A better place to discuss would be. http://www. caravantalk. co. uk/community/topic/96160-wheel-detachment/ where there is lots of discussion already but sadly no conclusions.

 

 

 

John

Edited January 25, 2015 by JCloughie

[DeeTee]

It would appear that some postings from a different topic have been moved to this topic and if my postings in the other topic were the reason for the move I apologise for causing Fred Drift.

 

I have now discovered a previous CT topic such as a this one here from April 2012. I am aware that I contributed to the topic, though I only vaguely remember doing so.

 

It would appear that one County Court judge would appear to support the contention that dealers may be more liable for caravan safety than users.

 

Please note. County Court judgements cannot normally be cited in other cases and do not normally create legal precedents. However the arguments used in the above case may persuade a different judge to find in favour of the claimant in another case.

 

I trust that this contribution will not seen as Fred Drift.

Edited January 26, 2015 by DeeTee

[JCloughie]

I think this topic title has changed again, confusing.

 

John

[DeeTee]

I think this topic title has changed again, confusing.

 

John

What the moderators considered to be Fred Drift in the other topic has been moved postings to this topic.

[JCloughie]

What the moderators considered to be Fred Drift in the other topic has been moved postings to this topic.

Fair enough.

 

John

[The 2 Tops]

Morning, Just a reminder to check wheel nuts, passed a caravan on the hard shoulder M42 yesterday junction 9/10. Nearside wheel had come off, Driver/Passenger appeared OK, I would imagine a bit shook up, so do check them, a couple of minuets checking can save hours waiting for breakdown service.

I have just wondered if this could be referring to the "one shot" nut that retains the whole wheel and brake assembly on the axle.

(one for each wheel). This nut gets removed during to check the brakes during the annual service, and can be refitted once only. For the sake of three or four quid per wheel (ours is only single axle) I have new ones fitted every time.

[Arc Systems]

'One shot nuts', another misnomer confined only to this crazy caravanning malarkey?! They are in actual fact 'semi-elliptical lock nuts' and designed for unlimited reuse??...look it up!

Industry then makes a fortune selling new ones and throwing perfectly reusable ones away

 

Just like Truma getting the blame for 'it's' gas regulator, surely no ones left believing that nonsense anymore? it never was the cause nor the hose and GOK make this excellent reg anyway!

Truma now selling a filter, ninety quid thank you sir!, before that and currently Gaslow selling a cheap regulator and stainless hose as a cure for a bucket load more of you hard earned dosh!

 

So now, not correctly tightening/re-tightening wheel nuts/bolts are to blame for wheels coming off? or indeed same not being up to the job in the first place!! and already up pops someone with some posh new bolts as a cure?!!

 

I hope your getting my drift here? none of these fix the problem, they are work around's at best, or to my mind scams to extract easy money from gullible caravanners!

 

Why? because there are billions of cars out there on same wheels held on by same nuts or bolts as on caravans. Why is it they don't come off with anything like the same frequency?, that despite billions more miles never being checked from one service or tyre change too another. ...and they don't ask you to check them 30miles down the load after the cars serviced either. ..that's passing the buck, plain and simple and when did you last see them use a torque wrench on your cars wheels?

Oh, and it's absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the lack of a central hub, impossible to be so or the location cones on the bolts could not do their job if hindered by it!

 

Which leads me to surmise on the cause, my thoughts are centred on the wheels themselves and their quality or lack there of?

There are other things, wheel balance for certain, over inflated tyres certainly won't help, but the one unknown to me is how well these alloy wheels are made, material? and particularly the accuracy of hole centres and locating and centralising tapers?

 

You see torque on a nut applies clamping pressure between wheel and hub, that's what it's designed to do, if all is true, the design torque applies the correct clamping pressure having overcome the expected resistance of 'dry' threads. (BTW, wet threads for the same torque, would give less friction therefore increase clamp pressure but possibly seriously weaken bolt, wet then have there own torque tables).

Now then, if holes in wheel are not perfectly aligned with holes in hub, some/much of applied torque is dissipated in friction caused by this unexpected misalignment. Result is correct torque, but WRONG lower clamping pressure applied and 'loose' wheel?

 

I don't know, all I'm saying is there is a cause of this to be fixed, rather than working round it trying to fix the symptoms as the caravan industry always seems to excel at?!

[Black Grouse]

[John_b_45]

Well said Arc.

[JTQ]

'One shot nuts', another misnomer confined only to this crazy caravanning malarkey?! They are in actual fact 'semi-elliptical lock nuts' and designed for unlimited reuse??...look it up!

Industry then makes a fortune selling new ones and throwing perfectly reusable ones away

 

 

IMO, it is not a good posting, but a very worrying one from a generally well respected source.

 

Page 7 of the Al-CO manual is very specific that these nuts are just that “One Shot” and “(ie. must only be used once). If removed it must be replaced with a NEW flanged nut - torqued to 290 ± 10 Nm (214 ± 7. 5 lbs/ft).!

 

http://www. al-ko. co. uk/edit/files/handbooks/caravanchassishandbookwhite. pdf

 

Should you lose a hub I will leave it to you to consider whether your insurers, or a court if there is injury, will base their judgements on what the maker says or you read in a forum.

[Arc Systems]

To say that is totally missing my point JTQ, the point being, there is no such thing in engineering terms as one shot nuts, what I simply pointed out was, these fit the description perfectly of semi-elliptical lock nuts which is an engineering term.

 

I'll go a bit further though, these thing are a simple flange nut that's been heat treated and the edge of nut side crimped slightly to make it slightly oval and give resistance to turning. if you then determine the torque to overcome a new nuts resistance, then compare that with the resistance of the old one and they are found to be the same?

 

Then tell me what possible reason to consider it necessary to replace them out of hand?

[JTQ]

I don't think I am missing the technology involved at all, spent too long involved in the field as a designer; stop just for a second to consider what is fundamentally different about a new nut and a pre used one?

Very importantly, set doing its job, one has in its life moved backwards, one has not, it has only moved in the direction that is applying that vital loading. One is "plastically deformed" during that fitting, one is not, it was on another application but not this time.

 

I would not be prepared to be called as an "expert witness" arguing the maker's statement, on the use of their "one shot nuts" is "crazy caravanning malarkey".