I Know This Is Legal, But Does It Make Sense?

[milkymarsh]

Wanted to put a little discussion point out there. None of whether this is legal or not, and not one of minding my own business due to others on a site in France, but just wanted to canvas opinion over whether this combination makes sense or not.

 

Car in question is a 2007 for galaxy Tdci (assume 2. 0tdci and manual - because it was smoking a lot when reversing). Towing Load limits are 2000kg, with kerbweight 1733kg.

Caravan is a swift challenger se 590 TA with an mtplm of 1850kg

 

Outfit arrived yesterday, with 6 people in the car, 2 bikes on the roof plus roof box. Full awning and the usual etc.

 

So, technically its legal. 85% rule is out of the window, but it does call into question the fact that you are likely to be towing at more than 100% of the kerbweight. No idea whether the gtw of the vehicle would be breached.

 

Just wanted to canvas views as its not a combo that I would consider or even put together.

[phil1041]

With all that weight in the vehicle he won't be towing at 100% of the kerb weight I wouldn't have thought.

 

Phil

[Ich]

So, technically its legal. 85% rule is out of the window,

 

A bit of advice that even the NCC doesn't know the origin of that is aimed at novice towers so probably irrelevant in this case

[DeadMeatUK]

It would surely be close to the train weight?

As for ratios I don't see how theoretical values are relevant? My outfit is something like car=1450 and 'van=1568Kg but the reality is quite different. My car, just like the one in your example is close to its maximum, while the 'van May or may not be so heavily loaded. ..

[springtime]

128bhp 6 up towing all that weight - must be a nightmare to drive

[Lutz]

With all that weight in the vehicle he won't be towing at 100% of the kerb weight I wouldn't have thought.

 

Phil

 

He would still be towing at 100% of the kerbweight even if the was fully laden to its GVW.

 

If he feels comfortable with all that load, so long as he really is within limits of both towing and loading capacity, it's not unreasonable if appropriate due care and attention is taken. I started towing at 100% and towed like that for years and never felt at unease.

[Guest]

The kerb weight is the weight of the tow car when empty (within the confines of what kerb weight means).

 

What is more of an issue is the individual axle loads of the tow car and the GrossTrain weight of the outfit.

[Gaz40]

The kerb weight is the weight of the tow car when empty (within the confines of what kerb weight means).

 

What is more of an issue is the individual axle loads of the tow car and the GrossTrain weight of the outfit.

 

 

The kerb weight also includes all vehicle fluids and can also take into the equation a quarter tank of fuel.

 

Your right, its the manufactures stated gross train weight of the vehicle that matters whilst not exceeding the gross vehicle weight or the caravans MTPLM.

 

Its all really gross !

[xtrailman]

I've towed with cars rated to tow at least 2000kg for the last 14 years, but I would never tow anything like 1850kg.

IMO none of them had or have sufficient power for a relaxing tow, for that sort of weight I would be looking at 3L diesels, and I mean modern 3L engines and probably auto.

X3 for example

Edited August 11, 2014 by xtrailman

[Black Grouse]

 

 

The kerb weight also includes all vehicle fluids and can also take into the equation a quarter tank of fuel.

 

Your right, its the manufactures stated gross train weight of the vehicle that matters whilst not exceeding the gross vehicle weight or the caravans MTPLM.

 

Its all really gross !

Kerbweight has never use 1/4 tank of fuel in it's calculation - depending on when the definition was done it's either - 0, 90 or 100% full.

[Lee21]

Does it not also include the weight of a passenger too. I think 75kg comes to mind but not sure where it came from.

I think I remember reading it when I was doing some research into getting a Navara and speed limits with respect to it being a dual purpose vehicle

Edited August 12, 2014 by Lee21

[Durbanite]

The 85% guideline may be better used if the loaded weight instead of kerbweight was used. For example MIRO is 1500kg maximum gross weight is 2200kg, therefore when fully loaded they could probably safely tow a 1870kg caravan as it would be 85% of the car's weight. That is if the combination is less than the car's maximum gross train weight.

[Gaz40]

Does it not also include the weight of a passenger too. I think 75kg comes to mind but not sure where it came from.

I think I remember reading it when I was doing some research into getting a Navara and speed limits with respect to it being a dual purpose vehicle

The Ministry of Transport recommend avoiding EC manufactures listed weights because it lists a notional weight for the drivers. Always best to calculate your actual body weight, even though it may be embassrassing.

[CommanderDave]

Driver 68 kg + 7 Kg tools = 75 kg . Usually measured with a 90% / or full tank of Fuel = Kerbweight .

 

Possibly over weight as MPVs are built to carry passengers or a load not both .

 

 

 

Dave

Edited August 12, 2014 by CommanderDave

[Lee21]

Hi Gaz,
The only weight I could find for Navaras was the kerb weight and needed to know the unladen weight to determine if the V6 Outlaw was under the 2040Kgs an unladen vehicle to comply with the 'dual purpose vehicle requirements and yes I am way over the 75kgs if that is what is used 1. 96m tall and 105Kgs so way beyond.

[Gone]

Seen this before, and lots worse. This morning I saw a mondeo estate tugging a big bailey twin axle. .......seems if you get away with it, they'll do it, with the lack of enforcement the only time it comes to light is when things go wrong. Sad but true.

[david 1220]

HMMM,-- Fine on the M2 perhaps-- just hope they stay away from ( big ) hills !

[Lutz]

Driver 68 kg + 7 Kg tools = 75 kg . Usually measured with a 90% / or full tank of Fuel = Kerbweight .

 

Possibly over weight as MPVs are built to carry passengers or a load not both .

 

 

 

Dave

 

Driver 68 kg + 7 Kg tools = 75 kg and a 90% full tank of Fuel = MIRO (or Mass in Service, as the V5c calls it)

 

Less driver and tools, but a 100% full tank of Fuel = Kerbweight .

Edited August 12, 2014 by Lutz

[Durbanite]

How many drivers weigh 70kg. Probably not many male drivers. My correct weight is 79kg for a start or are manufactures becoming sexist with weights?

[Gaz40]

Hi Gaz,

The only weight I could find for Navaras was the kerb weight and needed to know the unladen weight to determine if the V6 Outlaw was under the 2040Kgs an unladen vehicle to comply with the 'dual purpose vehicle requirements and yes I am way over the 75kgs if that is what is used 1. 96m tall and 105Kgs so way beyond.

Your Outlaw drops in at a kerb weight of 2150kg listed without driver, above your required unladen weight.

[Lee21]

2012 edition D40 Navara is 1920kgs un-laden according to Nissan. I was going to cancel my order after doing the speed awareness course as the instructor said to look at he tax disc and that will tell you what your limits are. Checked with the dealer and it is an LGV. .

 

I wanted to cancel the order there and then as I was not willing to spend £36K on a vehicle with restricted use.

 

Un-laden - no fuel or fluids and I think there is about 85kgs of fuel alone in it when full if I remember the sg of petrol being about 0. 7 is correct. 11 litres of oil,17 litres gearbox oil plus the diffs and transfer box and the coolant, brake fluid.

 

I was told this by Nissan however since they were in the business of selling me a car I called SY police for verification as I did not want to get nicked again through ignorance.

 

As I said I was in a bit of a flap as I had ordered this to replace our written off D4 and it was due to be delivered. To tow the horse box as well as the caravan

 

The confusion is because of different pieces of legislation.

 

The Road Vehicle Construction and Use Regulations define what is a dual purpose vehicle. This is the legislation that any speed is regulated through.

 

The Vehicle Excise Act, is responsible for setting the taxation class and has no connection with setting speed limits for vehicles.

 

Kerb weight of all but the 2. 5Dci manual Navara are above 2040Kgs and it would be difficult to determine the legality of a vehicle on the motorway doing 70mph if one variant was legal and the other two were not, one of them being say a de-badged Outlaw V6 like mine. .( came from the factory like it )

 

This has been discussed to death on the Navara forum

[OWOMW]

The 85% advice for novices relates to the kerbweight of the tow vehicle, and is only a guide.

Chucking a couple of 2 cwt. anvils in the boot doesn't change the kerbweight, and certainly won't make the combination any safer.

[DeadMeatUK]

The 85% advice for novices relates to the kerbweight of the tow vehicle, and is only a guide.

Chucking a couple of 2 cwt. anvils in the boot doesn't change the kerbweight, and certainly won't make the combination any safer.

I agree that loading up the boot doesn't change the kerb weight but that weight in the car instead of the 'van would deffently make it a safer combination!

[OWOMW]

I think people are deluding themselves when trying to adhere to a notional 85% figure by loading stuff into the car to get a better ratio. Don't bother making this calculation - the advice for novices is van MTPLM should be less than 85% of the KERBWEIGHT of the car. This advice allows for the fact that people will chuck loads of people and stuff in the car and thereby improve the ratio.

If you are experienced and confident enough then you can ignore the 85% advice, and lots do.

[Ich]

From: -

 

http://www. thencc. org. uk/downloads/Caravan_Towing_Guide_amended. pdf

 

 

Mass of vehicle in running order (MRO)

(Kerbweight, kerbside weight)

The weight of the car as defined by the car manufacturer.

 

Normally, this includes: 90% full tank of fuel; an adequate supply of other liquids incidental to the vehicle’s propulsion;the driver but without any passengers; without any load,except tools and equipment with which the car is normally provided; but without the towing bracket. You should add about 25kg for the towbar and ball.

 

Note:

Some definitions used by car manufacturers do not include the driver. If you do not know the MRO for your car, add about 100kg to the driverless kerbweight of the car to allow for the driver, towing bracket, ball and additional wiring.

Does that settle the discussion?