More Weigh-In Woes

[Pecksniff]

Thanks to all who helped on my weighbridge thread a couple of weeks ago - I can confirm that weighing-in at Kirkstall council weighbridge in Leeds is very straightforward, the lady behind the glass is extremely helpful, but it was very busy when we went and it did feel a bit as though we were holding things up when we wanted to unhitch to weight the caravan alone.

 

However. ....

 

Our caravan was what I would consider to be pretty lightly loaded, almost ready for a weekend away but nowhere near as comprehensively full as it would usually be for a fortnight in France. The beds were already made up, with a couple of small bags of clothes, usual basics box of food in the cupboard (half a dozen tins of beans/tuna/ tomatoes, cereal, squash, ketchup/tea/coffee, half a dozen bottles of water), aqua roll, wastemaster, deckchairs, rotary airer

 

No battery (as we'd forgotten to take it out of the garage), no awning, no fold up table, no kids bikes, no swimming stuff, no BBQ. We do have a motormover fitted though.

 

Our MTPLM is 1550 kg

 

Much to my surprise (despite the number of times I've read people having the same experience on here) the caravan weighed in at 1580kg :-(

 

We need a bit of a rethink! Especially as this wreaks havoc with our usual tradition of bringing cases of wine back from France!

 

We can take out the extra bunk and the front table as we never use them. We usually load the big awning in the car but I don't want to load everything in there as the rear axle will be heavily laden. The car/caravan combination is lovely to tow, it's about 90% match, absolutely stable and the car doesn't struggle at all - but I'm still amazed we don't have any spare payload.

[CommanderDave]

Your not alone everyone thinks my weight is nowhere near my MTPLM . Its surprising how much items start to add up in lockers and drawers .

 

 

Sounds like you need to put the caravan on a diet and loose some weight . Might be worth checking your train weight so you know how much you have in the car with passengers and big awning. People forget a cars payload allowance is made up of passengers or luggage not both . You see a number of cars and the car is full of passengers and every inch of the rear is packed to the roof and the back of the car is nearly touching the road .

 

Can you upgrade the weight plate to increase the MTPLM . ?

 

 

Dave

[OWOMW]

Disregarding the issue of tow car's rear axle limits, this raises the age old question of - can I deduct the noseweight from the van's standalone weight ?

[Pecksniff]

Yes, I think we do need a caravan diet - I genuinely didn't think we travel very heavily, but I guess I need to be aware how much little things add up. The cupboard with the children's games and colouring books is probably a good place to start, and we could maybe slim down some of the kitchen stuff . .. I wish now we had emptied the caravan out totally and weighed it, but I was so sure we were well inside our limits that I'd viewed it as just a bit of an academic exercise! had a spreadsheet at one point with the various weights of basic items . ..

 

I wonder what proportion of caravanners have never weighed their outfits? We did weigh car and caravan together and the total weight was absolutely fine, so thankfully we have no worries on that score.

[Towtug]

The regulation defining these terms is clear enough. The Technically permissable maximum laden mass includes the static mass transferred to the tow vehicle.
Reg 1230/2012 EU (art2 (7)).

If the caravan is type approved it will have the following figures defined:

Mass in running order (MRO). Ie ex factory mass including gas bottle, battery, water (but not waste water), spare wheel and electric hook up.

There will also be a payload allowance (PM) which is at least
10×(The body length in m + the number of berths)

When adding the Payload to the MRO the figure you get will be at or below the Max permissable MTPLM, this will be the higher figure on the VIN plate.

So if you have a 4m body 3 berth caravan with a MRO of 1400 kg, the payload will be at least 70 kg.
So MRO + payload is 1470. The MTPLM may be shown as 1500 this is the absolute max and cannot be surpassed.

Secondly the VIN plate will show 0 - The max allowable static load on the coupler and 1 - the max allowable static load on the axle, neither of these figures can be surpassed either.

 

 

 

As I am sat at an airport doing nothing and because I am nosey, I just checked out your vans spec with the brochure and their figures are right on the money.

 

For a Sterling Eccles Sport 586

 

The MRO listed is 1367kg

 

The Pay Mass (PM) by calculation as above should >10( l + IE >10(6m + 6 berths)

therefore at least 120 kg

 

The User pay load total shown is 183 kg

 

The Max Permissable (MTPLM) is then 1550kg (1367 + 183 = 1550)

 

If your Motor mover was factory fitted by the way it should be within the MRO, if it was fitted afterwards by yourself or a dealer, unless the van has been re-plated by them, the mass of that option is deducted from the Pay Mass.

 

So if a Motor Mover is around 50 - 60 kg you would only have a useable Pay Mass of around 120 kg.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Towtug

[OWOMW]

The regulation defining these terms is clear enough. The Technically permissable maximum laden mass includes the static mass transferred to the tow vehicle.

Reg 1230/2012 EU (art2 (7)).

 

Any chance of a link to "the regulation" ?

[Towtug]

 

Any chance of a link to "the regulation" ?

Sure, you are a glutton for punishment.

 

http://eur-lex. europa. EU/LexUriServ/LexUriServ. do?uri=OJ:L:2012:353:0031:0079:EN:PDF

 

To avoid "Cherry picking" snapshots from within the regs, which can often lead to mis-interpretation unless you are used to the way they are drafted, you may also have to refer to the other Framework directives and regulations referred to. They are all available from the same source.

[sunshinetours]

Shows how much payload a retro fit motor mover can use I guess. People often forget that this can be part of payload (and a large chunk of it I would add)

 

Good luck on the diet! My OH thinks I'm mad for being paranoid about the weight

 

Scary how it adds up - I would say your half a doz bottle of water plus same of tins will be 6kg plus just for that

[CommanderDave]

First time I checked mine I was 160 kg over and i thought i was under weight . Now everything goes in the car and nothing but lightweight items like a few garden chairs and Sat dish goes in caravan .

 

 

 

Dave

[Towtug]

At the risk of Hi Jacking this thread, you may find these definitions for commonly used terms useful, when working out your "weighbridge woes"

All the terms used are contemporary within the EWVTA in particular REG 1230/2012/EU, where possible I have cross referenced them to the terms used on documents such as the . gov website, The NCC tow guide and the vehicle V5C

 

Mass in running order (MRO) (aka Kerbweight or Kerbside weight)

 

For a Motor vehicle this is defined as:

 

the mass of the vehicle, with its fuel tank(s) filled to at least 90 % of its or their capacity/ies, including the mass of the driver (75Kg), of the fuel and liquids, fitted with the standard equipment in accordance with the manufacturer’s specifications and, when they are fitted, the mass of the bodywork, the cabin, the coupling and the spare wheel(s) as well as the tools

 

So picking your new car up from the dealer and filling the tank up to 90% and sitting in it whilst on the weighbridge would give you the MRO

 

For a trailer this is defined as:

 

the mass of the vehicle including the fuel and liquids, fitted with the standard equipment in accordance with the manufacturer’s specifications, and, when they are fitted, the mass of the bodywork, additional coupling(s), the spare wheel(s) and the tools.

 

 

So if you took an Ex works Caravan and filled the heating system and Water tanks, placed just it on a Weighbridge this is the weight you would record.

 

Mass of the optional equipment

 

Is defined as:

the mass of the equipment which may be fitted to the vehicle in addition to the standard equipment, in accordance with the manufacturer’s specifications.

 

So this could be Items made available by the manufacturer or dealer over and above the standard such as awnings or movers

Actual mass of the vehicle

means the mass in running order plus the mass of the optional equipment fitted to an individual vehicle.

IE Actual Mass = MRO + Optional Equipment

So again if you added your Motor mover to the caravan and parked just it on the weighbridge the mass recorded would be higher than the MRO and known as the actual mass. If this is done in the aftermarket it eats into the allowable Payload.

Technically permissible maximum laden mass (M) aka Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) and Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW)

For a Motor vehicle or trailer this is defined as:

the maximum mass allocated to a vehicle on the basis of its construction features and its design performances; the technically permissible laden mass of a trailer or of a semi-trailer includes the static mass transferred to the towing vehicle when coupled

So for a vehicle on its own this is the max it can be IE Base vehicle, Options, Payload and any contingency allowance.

Technically permissible maximum laden mass of the combination (MC)

aka Gross Train Weight (GTW)

means the maximum mass allocated to the combination of a motor vehicle and one or more trailers on the basis of its construction features and its design performances or the maximum mass allocated to the combination of a tractor unit and a semi-trailer

 

So for a vehicle coupled to a trailer and loaded to their respective Payloads, this is the figure the combination cannot exceed

 

Technically permissible maximum towable mass

aka Towing Load Limit in the UK

means the maximum mass of one or more trailers that may be towed by a towing vehicle which corresponds to the total load transmitted to the ground by the wheels of an axle or a group of axles on any trailer coupled to the towing vehicle

So for a trailer coupled to a tow vehicle this is the mass delivered through the axles to the road, in other words it does not count the load of the drawbar (noseweight) imposed on the tow vehicle. The "noseweight" load is added to the payload of the tow vehicle.

Technically permissible maximum mass on the axle (m_i)

means the mass corresponding to the maximum permissible static vertical load transmitted to the ground by the wheels of the axle, on the basis of the construction features of the axle and of the vehicle and their design performances

On a trailer this will be shown on the plate as 1 - ???? Kg, 2 - ???? Kg

Technically permissible maximum mass at the coupling point (m_c)

(a) in the case of a towing vehicle, the mass, corresponding to the maximum permissible static vertical load on the coupling point (‘S’ value) of a towing vehicle, on the basis of the construction features of the coupling and of the towing vehicle.

 

b} in the case of a semi-trailer, a centre-axle trailer or a rigid drawbar trailer, the mass corresponding to the maximum permissible static vertical load (‘S’ value) to be transferred by the trailer to the towing vehicle at the coupling point, on the basis of the construction features of the coupling and of the trailer

On a trailer this will be shown on the plate as 0 - ???? Kg

Edited July 30, 2014 by Towtug

[Roger3596]

Having seen the amount of stuff that comes out on sites lately I think there is a high percentage of overloaded outfits on the road.

 

The worst was on our last trip away. .........I would say what it was that caught my eye but it was so unique the owner would know if on here.

 

But one day some will get an on the spot fine (up to a couple of thousand pounds for being over weight) and prohibition notice served, not to forget if the over weight is a factor in an accident.

 

So well done to the OP for sorting his out.

[OWOMW]

Towtug's stuff on definitions of terms relates to "type approval" and confirms that a van's MTPLM will be the van weighed on it's own, detached from the tow vehicle.

 

My understanding is that when you get pulled over by VOSA for a weigh-in they will not detach the caravan and merely focus on axle weights.

[beejay]

Disregarding the issue of tow car's rear axle limits, this raises the age old question of - can I deduct the noseweight from the van's standalone weight ?

 

 

Yes. The outfit would be weighed coupled up one axle at a time.

 

A caravan or trailer cannot be used without a towing vehicle.

 

Edit: our posts crossed.

 

Just to add that the hitch load will go onto the vehicle rear axle load so if this is close to its plated weight before hitching up it could be overloaded

Edited July 30, 2014 by beejay

[Durbanite]

Thanks to all who helped on my weighbridge thread a couple of weeks ago - I can confirm that weighing-in at Kirkstall council weighbridge in Leeds is very straightforward, the lady behind the glass is extremely helpful, but it was very busy when we went and it did feel a bit as though we were holding things up when we wanted to unhitch to weight the caravan alone.

 

However. ....

 

Our caravan was what I would consider to be pretty lightly loaded, almost ready for a weekend away but nowhere near as comprehensively full as it would usually be for a fortnight in France. The beds were already made up, with a couple of small bags of clothes, usual basics box of food in the cupboard (half a dozen tins of beans/tuna/ tomatoes, cereal, squash, ketchup/tea/coffee, half a dozen bottles of water), aqua roll, wastemaster, deckchairs, rotary airer

 

No battery (as we'd forgotten to take it out of the garage), no awning, no fold up table, no kids bikes, no swimming stuff, no BBQ. We do have a motormover fitted though.

 

Our MTPLM is 1550 kg

 

Much to my surprise (despite the number of times I've read people having the same experience on here) the caravan weighed in at 1580kg :-(

 

We need a bit of a rethink! Especially as this wreaks havoc with our usual tradition of bringing cases of wine back from France!

 

We can take out the extra bunk and the front table as we never use them. We usually load the big awning in the car but I don't want to load everything in there as the rear axle will be heavily laden. The car/caravan combination is lovely to tow, it's about 90% match, absolutely stable and the car doesn't struggle at all - but I'm still amazed we don't have any spare payload.

Remember that 70-100kg is transferred onto the car hitch so you are actually under your MTPLM. The MTPLM is a guideline and is not a legal representation and you cannot get a ticket for exceeding it however if it exceeds the load rating of the tyres or the maximum gross train weight then a ticket is in order.

Towtug's stuff on definitions of terms relates to "type approval" and confirms that a van's MTPLM will be the van weighed on it's own, detached from the tow vehicle.

 

My understanding is that when you get pulled over by VOSA for a weigh-in they will not detach the caravan and merely focus on axle weights.

This is correct so OP would n ot have an issue and as the MTPLM plate has no legal standing, VOSA or the police would look at the maximum load rating of the tyres to determine if the caravan or trailer is a hazard or not.

[JTQ]

Looking simply at the tyres in no way confirms the axle etc is not overloaded; some people even recommend fitting 10% over capacity tyres to caravans.

 

The biggest issue I have found is the near mythical quoted MIRO of vans. This is often a base figure for a model not the model configured with the features you might be buying. Then things are set to go really wrong in that MIRO figure often has a plus or minus 5% tolerance, however by definition the maximum total mass has zero positive tolerance!!

 

5% of a 1300 odd kg MIRO is a massive 65 kgs, a hell of a big chunk out of say even a 200 kg payload.

I have had measuring the as delivered MIRO, a contractural requirement in my last two vans and you guessed it both were to within a few kgs, the full 5% tolerance over the quoted value.

Edited July 30, 2014 by JTQ

[CommanderDave]

This MTPLM has no standing in law is a myth any plated weight can be used as evidence the manufacturers weight limit is a declared weight .

 

 

So the upgrade certificate issued by the caravan manufacture can be thrown in the bin.

 

I think a police officer would laugh if you told him a plated weight has no meaning.

 

 

Dave

[Towtug]

Remember that 70-100kg is transferred onto the car hitch so you are actually under your MTPLM. The MTPLM is a guideline and is not a legal representation and you cannot get a ticket for exceeding it however if it exceeds the load rating of the tyres or the maximum gross train weight then a ticket is in order.

This is correct so OP would n ot have an issue and as the MTPLM plate has no legal standing, VOSA or the police would look at the maximum load rating of the tyres to determine if the caravan or trailer is a hazard or not.

 

The MTPLM for the Whole Vehicle and for the Hitch and each axle all appear on the VIN plate. All are legally enforceable. However It is true that VOSA would not detach a van, but they don't need to. If they weigh an axle and it is higher than that shown on the plate it is a C and U offence. In most cases (and I have been present when they do this) they will look at the plate on the Towing vehicle and weigh the front axle, they then weigh the rear axle, if either of the MTPLM for these has been exceeded that is one offence. they then weigh the first axle of the trailer, then the second and so on. if any of the loads on those axles are exceeded that is a second offence. In reality as I understand it the offence is committed when any axle or the whole combination exceeds the mass what is on the plates.

This MTPLM has no standing in law is a myth any plated weight can be used as evidence the manufacturers weight limit is a declared weight .

 

 

So the upgrade certificate issued by the caravan manufacture can be thrown in the bin.

 

I think a police officer would laugh if you told him a plated weight has no meaning.

 

 

Dave

For a Type approved vehicle, a manufacturer can list what is known as in service or registration weights, if these weights are in the approval they can issue a New certificate of Conformity and a New Plate and either Up or Down Plate it. A certificate on its own is no good.

 

 

As for the comment about MRO, manufacturers are allowed a tolerance of +/- 3% (not 5%).

Looking simply at the tyres in no way confirms the axle etc is not overloaded; some people even recommend fitting 10% over capacity tyres to caravans.

 

The biggest issue I have found is the near mythical quoted MIRO of vans. This is often a base figure for a model not the model configured with the features you might be buying. Then things are set to go really wrong in that MIRO figure often has a plus or minus 5% tolerance, however by definition the maximum total mass has zero positive tolerance!!

 

5% of a 1300 odd kg MIRO is a massive 65 kgs, a hell of a big chunk out of say even a 200 kg payload.

I have had measuring the as delivered MIRO, a contractural requirement in my last two vans and you guessed it both were to within a few kgs, the full 5% tolerance over the quoted value.

This has been recognised and for any vehicle since February this year the certificate of conformity must specify an Actual Mass aswell as the MRO etc, so as the limit is 3% they could still be seen as being incorrect.

 

Thankfully VOSA in this country have got bigger fish to fry and aren't too concerned. I can see it being more of an issue when we get the change to roadside testing and MOT style testing.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Towtug

[CommanderDave]

I think your find under 5% usually a word . 5-10% chance to remove offending weight . Over 10% and your exceeding the C&U built in safety margins and have a mechanical failure and possible ticket.

 

Stopped in EU overweight you will be stopped from proceeding.

 

Trailers have required a plate giving the MAM since 1982 .

 

Stopped in France no plate is a 50 euro fine.

 

Dave

Edited July 30, 2014 by CommanderDave

[Towtug]

I think your find under 5% usually a word . 5-10% chance to remove offending weight . Over 10% and your exceeding the C&U built in safety margins and have a mechanical failure and possible ticket.

 

Stopped in EU overweight you will be stopped from proceeding.

 

Trailers have required a plate giving the MAM since 1982 .

 

Stopped in France no plate is a 50 euro fine.

 

Dave

 

 

You are right Dave, that's for payload etc at the Roadside. But for manufacturers they are only allowed 3%. In other words if you declare a MRO at a certain figure the actual vehicle has to be within 3% of it.

[beejay]

I think your find under 5% usually a word . 5-10% chance to remove offending weight . or stopped from proceeding

 

Stopped in EU overweight you will be stopped from proceeding. ..... as in the UK

 

Trailers have required a plate giving the MAM since 1982 .

 

• Since 1982 all trailers, including unbraked ones, must be clearly marked with their maximum gross weight in kilograms.
• Department of Transport Code of Practice states that it is desirable for trailers less than 3,500kg gross vehicle to carry a manufacturer's plate clearly showing manufacturer's name and address, chassis or serial number, model number, number of axles, maximum weight per axle, nose weight or coupling, maximum gross weight and date of manufacturer.

 

Stopped in France no plate is a 50 euro fine.

 

If a plate is not required in the UK ( see above) there is no French offence committed

 

 

 

 

Care is needed to differentiate between pre-Type Approval and post-Type Approval

[Steamdrivenandy]

Looking down my weights spreadsheet and to sdpark some thoughts, the big items might be:

 

Options for an Eriba:

Battery & charger 30kg

Spare Wheel & Carrier 20kg

Sprung benches 10kg

Carpet 8kg

Omnistor Sunshade 18kg

Boiler 6kg

Mover 30kg

Caravan contents:

Awning 25kg

Clothes 10kg per person

Food 10kg

Bedding 5kg per person

Awning Peg Box 5kg

Fridge contents 5kg

Plates & cutlery 2kg per person

CADAC 4kg

Wine 1. 4kg per litre (incl. glass bottle)

Footwear 1kg per pair average.

Aquaroll 6kg

Wastemaster 6kg

Car Contents:

Towbar & towball 25kg

Dog crates 4kg each

Tool bag 4kg

Dog grooming bag 3kg

[Towtug]

My biggest problem when working with manufacturers is determining the what the MRO should actually be as without this it is difficult to peg the required paymass and MTPLM.

 

The manufacturer has to declare an MRO max and min for each version of each variant of each type approved. As you can imagine that can run to dozens in some circumstances. For example you may produce an identical van but if factory options are selected such as a spare wheel and carrier or an integral battery charger, it will effectively have a different MRO. From a manufacturer viewpoint this additional weight cannot eat into the user payload and of course cannot exceed the MTPLM which is usually determined by the axles used or the chassis etc.

Some manufacturers ensure the difference between the MRO and MTPLM is greater than the user payload to cover this.

 

Another point which is difficult to control is the mass of individual components as supplied. Tyres and rims from different suppliers can vary by a couple of kg, and recently one manufacturer was forced due to a restricted supply to use thicker materials for the caravan base adding about 15 kg.

 

Any items added by a dealer but before the van is with an end user should result in the van being replated either in accordance with the manufacturers original approval, or by a seperate approval or IVA done by the dealer as a second stage manufacturer. This rarely if ever happens because there is no adequate control over caravans as they do not require registration.

 

If items are added after sale the mass has to be deducted from the paymass unless the manufacturer will replate it.

 

Some manufacturers will declare a range of masses which will allow a van to be plated to match the tow car.

[Lutz]

When I was still working in the car industry we found out that the weight of a typical 'body-in-white' (i. e. the finished painted sheet metal body assembly without any trim, glass, powertrain, chassis components, etc.) could vary by as much as 35kg due to tolerances in the sheet metal and, paint and spray-on insulation thicknesses. There is no reason to assume that the tolerances in caravan build are any less. In fact, it would be fairly safe to assume that they would be more.

 

On top of that the insulation itself can absorb well over 15kg humidity after a long rainy spell, especially on larger caravans. This has nothing to do with damp. It's just the moisture in the air.

[Towtug]

I just audited a Twin axle six berth van the other day as part of the normal external approval process. The manufacturer had allowed the customer to specify certain custom modifications which had been incorporated during the build. This included a folding wheel chair ramp, a wider door, thicker cushions and bedding. The total additional mass was a massive 140kg meaning that there was no user payload. Because of this the vehicle could not be issued with a Certificate of conformity as it would contravene the manufacturers Conformity.

[Steamdrivenandy]

Now I understand why Kia quote a minimum kerbweight of 1426kg and a maximum kerbweight of 1509kg for my car and why the V5 Mass in Service is slap bang in the middle at 1468kg. Kia are covering all the bases in their Type Approval.

 

So how do Skoda get away with quoting a kerbweight without driver and fluids in their latest brochures?

 

I also wondered how my van could have the same MIRO as a standard Quasar 464 when it had:

 

Al-Ko ATC

Heavy Duty steadies

Shock absorbers

Alarm

Larger Heki

Extra lighting

Different roof locker infill panels

External BBQ point

etc.

 

Most of those must add something extra to the MIRO, so I had the MTPLM upgraded by 65kg, just in case.