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JCloughie

Wheel Detachment!

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Yes its a known phenomenon on the near side to do with the direction of rotation.

 

The direction of the wheel rotation on the nearside, would have the effect of tightening the bolts, not loosening them.

 

In 45 years as a professional mechanic, I have never seen a wheel come lose on a car or lorry unless it had been interfered with.

 

I torque the wheels on my own car and van 50 miles after refitting on the annual service, then I forget about them, never had a wheel come lose on either the van or car, must have travelled 80,000 mile towing in the last 12 years without any problems.

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Update

 

Axle has to be made to order. 4 weeks!

 

Alko got very cagey when I asked who makes the desision re which bolts to fit but admitted that it was a joint desision between them and the caravan manufacturer.

 

When I pushed the matter he said the service centre will need to investigate the cause.

 

Devitt insurance said it was all too common.

 

Why don't insurance companies put pressure on the industry to get it right?

 

Why don't manufacturers and service centres ensure customers are fully informed and equipped to check the security. (I know that some centres do but I guess they are in the minority, mine certenly did not).

 

John

It maybe on CT somewhere.

One guy was going through a tunnel in France/Italy when the wheel detached from his Pegasus.

Luckily no one was hurt, the van was eventually repaired and his insurance paid the bill.

The Dealer did not want to know and neither did Bailey. The guy took his Dealer to the small claims court and won. The Dealer had to pay plus the court said that Bailey should be brought into the problem. Down in Somerset I think.

So there is legal precedent for sorting this out in the small claims courts, just a thought once the dust has settled.

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Yes its a known phenomenon on the near side to do with the direction of rotation.

 

The direction of the wheel rotation on the nearside, would have the effect of tightening the bolts, not loosening them.

 

In 45 years as a professional mechanic, I have never seen a wheel come lose on a car or lorry unless it had been interfered with.

 

I torque the wheels on my own car and van 50 miles after refitting on the annual service, then I forget about them, never had a wheel come lose on either the van or car, must have travelled 80,000 mile towing in the last 12 years without any problems.

Which is why I asked if there was any chance that the brake had overheated. That causes the bolts to expand and the torque setting is lost, and they can come loose.

 

That is the only time I have seen an otherwise safely fitted wheel come off.

Edited by Trevor Marron

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Which is why I asked if there was any chance that the brake had overheated. That causes the bolts to expand and the torque setting is lost, and they can come loose. That is the only time I have seen an otherwise safely fitted wheel come off.

Nevertheless it is well documented that nearside wheels come detached, just search on this site. Definitely not the brakes. If the direction of rotation is clockwise then inersia may make the nuts or bolts stand still in relation to the wheel therefore causing the wheel to loosen.

 

Sorry Steve77 this is the way it has been reported for years. At one time there was a call to put left hand threads on the nearside, why do you think it should tighten them?

 

See this link which supports the above. http://www. meaforensic. com/wheel-separation-investigation-metallurgical-expert-mark-bailey-mea-forensic/

Just today I reported to the insurance and the said bet it was the nearside.

 

Of course the nearside became the offside in France but luckily no one was coming the other way.

 

John

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Sorry Steve77 this is the way it has been reported for years. At one time there was a call to put left hand threads on the nearside, why do you think it should tighten them?

 

At one point there was consideration to putting left hand thread studs and nuts on the nearside of lorries and trailers, but instead spigot mount wheels became the norm. Since then all the wheels I have seen that have come off are those with the wrong wheel on (yes, I know!) and where brakes have overheated.

 

It is surely the lack of spigot mounting that is the problem.

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At one point there was consideration to putting left hand thread studs and nuts on the nearside of lorries and trailers, but instead spigot mount wheels became the norm. Since then all the wheels I have seen that have come off are those with the wrong wheel on (yes, I know!) and where brakes have overheated. It is surely the lack of spigot mounting that is the problem.

If spigot mount became the norm why aren't they on caravans?

 

Spigots are only to locate when fitting.

 

I don't doubt you are correct about the brakes, I am just saying it definitely was not in my case.

 

John

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It maybe on CT somewhere.

One guy was going through a tunnel in France/Italy when the wheel detached from his Pegasus.

Luckily no one was hurt, the van was eventually repaired and his insurance paid the bill.

The Dealer did not want to know and neither did Bailey. The guy took his Dealer to the small claims court and won. The Dealer had to pay plus the court said that Bailey should be brought into the problem. Down in Somerset I think.

So there is legal precedent for sorting this out in the small claims courts, just a thought once the dust has settled.

As I understand it, legal precedents are not available in the County Courts of England and Wales, which is where the so-called small claims are made.

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If spigot mount became the norm why aren't they on caravans?

 

Spigots are only to locate when fitting.

 

I don't doubt you are correct about the brakes, I am just saying it definitely was not in my case.

 

John

No John, it was just a thought. And I guess that caravan makers do not insist on spigot mounts on a cost basis, it would mean an extra dimension to consider when sourcing wheels.

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The change from wheel studs & nuts to bolts is the no. one reason, the removal of the location spigot is the second, for loose wheels as there is now, in comparison, very little centralising or restraining effect. This was done many years ago simply as a penny-pinching cost-saving exercise, it adds nothing whatsoever towards safety. Any imbalance is therefore free to wreck havoc.

 

Add to this the, IMHO, unsuitable use of alloy wheels that are carrying approx. twice the load of a car & you have a recipe for disaster. Compound this with the physical fact that steel wheels (because of their inherent design) act as springs thereby holding the nuts, or bolts, tighter & alloy wheels do not (& also are more susceptible to loosening due to transferred heat) & we have an increasing list of features that tend to counter safety. This is not to say steel wheels don't ever come loose, but it's much less likely.

 

On top of all this we have the poor education of the public re safety of wheels, which the manufacturers should address with all haste if they have any serious intensions towards safety. Saying 'torque the wheels before every journey' is just a cop-out, & merely disguises the issue.

 

Hence my previous emphasis on the correct methodology when fitting as this is the only way we can possibly tip the balance back towards safety. Relying on service personnel to do the job right, without a further check, is simply a gamble.

 

I've said it all before & it's just as true as it always was.

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The change from wheel studs & nuts to bolts is the no. one reason, the removal of the location spigot is the second, for loose wheels as there is now, in comparison, very little centralising or restraining effect. This was done many years ago simply as a penny-pinching cost-saving exercise, it adds nothing whatsoever towards safety. Any imbalance is therefore free to wreck havoc.

 

Add to this the, IMHO, unsuitable use of alloy wheels that are carrying approx. twice the load of a car & you have a recipe for disaster. Compound this with the physical fact that steel wheels (because of their inherent design) act as springs thereby holding the nuts, or bolts, tighter & alloy wheels do not (& also are more susceptible to loosening due to transferred heat) & we have an increasing list of features that tend to counter safety. This is not to say steel wheels don't ever come loose, but it's much less likely.

 

On top of all this we have the poor education of the public re safety of wheels, which the manufacturers should address with all haste if they have any serious intensions towards safety. Saying 'torque the wheels before every journey' is just a cop-out, & merely disguises the issue.

 

Hence my previous emphasis on the correct methodology when fitting as this is the only way we can possibly tip the balance back towards safety. Relying on service personnel to do the job right, without a further check, is simply a gamble.

 

I've said it all before & it's just as true as it always was.

A bolt will hold things just as tight as a stud and nut. Only about 30% of the torque is transmitted via the bolts the rest is by the friction force between the hub and the rim. A spigot has no effect on wheel tightness that is why the bolts are conical, to align the wheel and allow friction force between hub and rim.

Regards the alloy wheels carrying twice the load, makes no difference if the alloy wheel is larger dimensioned and it isn't a drive wheel. The alloy wheel is also lighter.

If steel wheels were springing all the time then the bolts could well become stressed and fail.

Bailey increased the effective torque by a considerable margin when they changed the bolts and used the one shot lubricant during initial fitting.

Still very strange they should fail like this again.

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The change from wheel studs & nuts to bolts is the no. one reason, the removal of the location spigot is the second, for loose wheels as there is now, in comparison, very little centralising or restraining effect. This was done many years ago simply as a penny-pinching cost-saving exercise, it adds nothing whatsoever towards safety. Any imbalance is therefore free to wreck havoc.

 

 

 

I've said it all before & it's just as true as it always was.

 

The underlying logic here will struggle to explain why simply replacing the bolts with WSL supplied bolts but still retaining the bolts and spigotless mountings that you claim are the design failings, is all that is needed, along with an initial retorque, to mitigate the problem.

 

Your claim never was and still is not true, but is a frequent made assertion.

 

I don't doubt that manufacturers embrace not machining spigots and using studs as they cost them more, but also because they know they don't add anything to the product but that cost.

Edited by JTQ
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Nevertheless it is well documented that nearside wheels come detached, just search on this site. Definitely not the brakes. If the direction of rotation is clockwise then inersia may make the nuts or bolts stand still in relation to the wheel therefore causing the wheel to loosen.

 

Sorry Steve77 this is the way it has been reported for years. At one time there was a call to put left hand threads on the nearside, why do you think it should tighten them?

 

See this link which supports the above. http://www. meaforensic. com/wheel-separation-investigation-metallurgical-expert-mark-bailey-mea-forensic/

Just today I reported to the insurance and the said bet it was the nearside.

 

Of course the nearside became the offside in France but luckily no one was coming the other way.

 

John

 

 

I think you will find that the nearside wheel rotates anticlockwise when traveling forwards, which is when I presume that these wheels come off.

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Which is why I asked if there was any chance that the brake had overheated. That causes the bolts to expand and the torque setting is lost, and they can come loose.

 

That is the only time I have seen an otherwise safely fitted wheel come off.

There was a batch of hubs from Alko that the paint was thick and when the hub got hot the paint melted and allowed the nuts/bolts to become loose as the wheel sinks into the soft paint.

 

Dave

Edited by CommanderDave

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Where I work, we use a shake table, to replicate actual life vibrations in the product. You would be suprised how many bolts come loose, even when they are in a properley designed joint, and how many components fail due to fatigue.

 

Often the solution is to change the washer, to a much thicker hardened one, as many failures are due to the material yielding under fatigue and hence removing the torque.

 

As been mentioned in another thread just above this one, over tightening can be just as bad, as this causes the bolt to sit in the yield condition of the material, rather than the elastic region, which causes stress relaxation due to the bolt stretching.

 

I have been thinking of why the WSL bolts are now being used, and perhaps this system allows the correct torque to be applied to the bolt without losses in friction of the bolt/wheel conical interface, which in normal bolts, will be a % of the overall torque applied. Does this make sense or am I having a senior moment.

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No, its a well known and documented fault with early Alutech vans, especially the single axle Unicorn as it uses bigger wheels.

 

Baileys official line I believe is -->

 

From the 1st September 2011all Bailey Caravans wheel bolts changed to the new type

Delta Protekt VH301 GZ low friction coating, however the torque value for all Orion's, Olympus,

Pegasus and Unicorn Seville, Barcelona and Pamplona fitted with these wheel bolts is 120NM/88lb ft. .

* The original wheel bolts and the new Delta Protekt VH301GZ low friction coated bolts can be

used on all ALU-TECH steel spare wheels and should be torqued to 120NM/88lb ft.

* All ALU-TECH caravans built prior to September 2011 and Series built caravans with OE fitted

alloy wheels as standard should be torqued to 110NM/81lb ft again the same wheel bolts should be used

on the steel spare wheel and torqued to a value of 110NM/81ft lb.

* All Series and pre Series built caravans fitted with OE steel wheels should be torqued to a value of 88NM/65lb ft

All Bailey Unicorn Madrid, Valencia, Almeria & Cabrera models

should be fitted with Delta Protekt (grey) bolts and torqued to a value of 160Nm

 

However, Since replacing the original bolts Bailey started to use the WSL bolts and I have never heard of an issue using these bolts with detachment or even loosening.

It is only my personal belief that the replacement bolts for the Series 1 Unicorn are probably just as useless as the original type but are likely not being 'officially' recalled due to cost.

 

See --> http://www. caravantimes. co. uk/news/makes/bailey/unicorn/bailey-caravans-offers-further-advice-on-unicorn-wheel-detachments-$21379948. htm

 

See --> http://www. baileyofbristol. co. uk/whats-new/latest-news/newsitem. php?recordid=228

 

I would suggest letting the NCC aware of your issue and that you did follow the correct procedures.

 

 

Please can anyone explain why the the Seville, Barcelona & Pamplona should be torqued to 120NM but the Madrid, Valencia, Almeria & Cabrera should be torqued to 160 NM?

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Weight ? twin axles ?

 

 

Dave

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I think you will find that the nearside wheel rotates anticlockwise when traveling forwards, which is when I presume that these wheels come off.

Caravan wheels are no driven so they are made to rotate by the motion of the vehicle. Thus, on a nearside wheel, the force is anti-clockwise. The main force will occur under braking.

 

The contact area between the nut or bolt and the wheel is conical and the weight will be transferred through the lower side of the nut. This will tend to rotate the nut anticlockwise. Once the nut starts to loosen the gap between the wheel and nut will increase so that the only contact will tend to be at the bottom. This will cause the loosen effect to increase rapidly and then the wheel can come off.

 

When the nut is properly tightened there should be the conical contact area will centre the nut in the hole and provide friction around the whole circumference, sufficient to prevent the nut from loosening.

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Nuts and bolt loosen due to vibration and the difference between caravans and cars is balancing to stop vibration .

 

 

 

 

 

Dave

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Weight ? twin axles ?

 

 

Dave

The thing that puzzles me is that the Seville is the smallest, lightest single-axle caravan in the range whereas the Barcelona and the Pamplona are both heavy twin-axle vans.

 

When Bailey introduced the new coated wheel bolts I had a Madrid and I was told to torque the bolts to 160 NM, but in 2012 I exchanged it for the Seville that I have now. No one said anything about a lower torque for the wheel bolts so I have continued to torque the bolts to 160 NM as per the advice for the Madrid.

 

The MTPLM for the Seville is 1440 Kg and the Madrid was 1596 Kg

Both caravans are single-axle models

The Seville is 6. 5 metres long and the Madrid was 7. 2 metres.

The alloy wheels on the Seville and the Madrid are identical as far as I can see.

 

So, I'm a bit puzzled, but my question is this - Is there anything wrong in the wheels being torqued to 160 NM instead of 120 NM and will I have done any damage to the wheels or hubs?

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The thing that puzzles me is that the Seville is the smallest, lightest single-axle caravan in the range whereas the Barcelona and the Pamplona are both heavy twin-axle vans.

 

When Bailey introduced the new coated wheel bolts I had a Madrid and I was told to torque the bolts to 160 NM, but in 2012 I exchanged it for the Seville that I have now. No one said anything about a lower torque for the wheel bolts so I have continued to torque the bolts to 160 NM as per the advice for the Madrid.

 

The MTPLM for the Seville is 1440 Kg and the Madrid was 1596 Kg

Both caravans are single-axle models

The Seville is 6. 5 metres long and the Madrid was 7. 2 metres.

The alloy wheels on the Seville and the Madrid are identical as far as I can see.

 

So, I'm a bit puzzled, but my question is this - Is there anything wrong in the wheels being torqued to 160 NM instead of 120 NM and will I have done any damage to the wheels or hubs?

 

Twin axles and light caravan like the seville have a small axle weight . Twins share the weight between the two axles giving low axle weight .

 

 

Dave

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Re #43:

 

Now that is interesting Dave. I had terrible troubles with vibration with my Madrid which caused some of the furniture to shake itself loose. At the time everyone said it was unecessary to balance the wheels but I went ahead and had it done anyway. Lo and behold - no more problems with vibration or loose furniture and the caravan was more stable on tow as well. The first thing I did when I bought the Seville was to have the wheels balanced. Since then I've heard that all Bailey caravans are coming out of the factory with their wheels already balanced.

 

Could lack of balancing be the cause of the OP's problem?


 

Twin axles and light caravan like the seville have a small axle weight . Twins share the weight between the two axles giving low axle weight .

 

 

Dave

Ah - I didn't think of that Dave but it seems plausible.

 

Thanks.

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Could lack of balancing be the cause of the OP's problem?

 

I think that wheel balancing has a great deal to do with the problem of wheels coming off.

 

I have never fitted a tyre to a wheel without balancing and fitting a new valve. Maybe this is why I have never experienced the loose wheel syndrome.

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The thing that puzzles me is that the Seville is the smallest, lightest single-axle caravan in the range whereas the Barcelona and the Pamplona are both heavy twin-axle vans.

 

When Bailey introduced the new coated wheel bolts I had a Madrid and I was told to torque the bolts to 160 NM, but in 2012 I exchanged it for the Seville that I have now. No one said anything about a lower torque for the wheel bolts so I have continued to torque the bolts to 160 NM as per the advice for the Madrid.

 

The MTPLM for the Seville is 1440 Kg and the Madrid was 1596 Kg

Both caravans are single-axle models

The Seville is 6. 5 metres long and the Madrid was 7. 2 metres.

The alloy wheels on the Seville and the Madrid are identical as far as I can see.

 

So, I'm a bit puzzled, but my question is this - Is there anything wrong in the wheels being torqued to 160 NM instead of 120 NM and will I have done any damage to the wheels or hubs?

You have put 30% over torque on your bolts.(Maybe)

What did your dealer have the bolts torqued at when you bought the van? What does your instruction manual say they should be torqued at?

When you first torqued the bolts did the bolts turn very much?

Does the plate, at the outside of the van entrance door, have torque settings on it?

Edited by SuperJock

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Although my Seville was first registered in 2012 it is actually a 2011 model, which is how I managed to get a good deal when I changed from the Madrid, so there is no information in the manual and nothing on the plate. I don't know what the wheels were torqued at when I took delivery and the first thing I did when I got home was to take them off when I took all three round to Kwik-Fit to have them balanced. When I put them back on the van I torqued them up to 160 NM based on the only advice I had, which was for the Madrid. I've towed for something around 4,000 miles with them at that torque with no sign of anything amiss, but I'm now a little worried that I may have over-stressed either the bolts or the alloy wheels.

 

What would be the best advice?

1) leave well alone?

2 loosen the bolts and re-torque them to 120 NM?

3) shell out for a new set of bolts and torque them at 120 NM?

 

When I think about it the caravan has been serviced by the dealer in 2013 and 2014 and the wheels were torqued by them at 160 NM, so maybe I'd better have a word with them (and maybe Baileys as well) before doing anything.

Edited by Highlandman

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4. Ask the dealer and if he isn't sure ask Bailey.

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