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Marketing Strategy Effects Kerbweight?


SamD
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It would appear that the way in which car makers market their cars is having a direct effect on the weight shown on the V5 in Mass in Service.

There is another thread (Can I Tow 1500 Kilos With 1430 Kilo Kerb Weight Mpv) discussing Kerb weight, Mass in Service/Running Order but the focus of this is slightly different.

 

Using BMW and Land Rover as examples it can be seen that:

 

  • BMW basically have 2 models (SE and M Sport) across the different Series but those 2 are largely cosmetic differences such as Steering Wheel, different spoiler, alloy wheels etc. They then have a (huge) list of optional extras which can be applied to both BUT because the definition (see below) excludes optional extras, the weight of these items is not included in the V5 i. e. both SE and M Sport show the same weight on the V5 Mass in Service as that shown in the handbook which reads “Kerb weight with 75 kg, tank 90% full, no optional extras”
  • The Freelander 2 has a range of models including the top of range HSE and, because that is a model with standard equipment higher than the base model, LR quite correctly (I think) will include all that equipment in the Mass in Service figure and if my memory serves me correctly, the difference in the ‘from . ....kg’ figure shown in the handbook to the one on the V5 was about 90kg (going back a couple of years).

 

Well so what? Well not a lot really but to show it makes our advice to newbies even harder in trying to apply the 85% guideline when in BMW’s case above they are under selling themselves in terms of that guideline even though they are applying the definitions correctly.

 

 

The Mass in Running order is defined as:

The mass of the vehicle, with its fuel tank(s) filled to at least 90 % of its or their capacity/ies, including the mass of the driver, of the fuel and liquids, fitted with the standard equipment in accordance with the manufacturer’s specifications and, when they are fitted, the mass of the bodywork, the cabin, the coupling and the spare wheel(s) as well as the tools;

 

Sam :beardy:

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IMO kerbweights should never of been adopted as a weight ratio but kept the original Unladen weight as it is true figure and the ratio can only go down as fuel is added. To maintain a ratio on kerbweight you would need to fill up with fuel every garage .

 

 

ratios are only recommendation.

 

 

Dave

Jeep Commander 3. 0 V6 CRD

Isuzu D- Max Utah Auto

Elddis Crusader Storm 2000 Kgs, Unipart Royal Atlas Mover .

 

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But as SamD has pointed out the unladen mass of a vehicle can change from one vehicle to another dependant upon the optional extras that have been added. However, as you say the ratio is only a guideline and providing the person calculating that ratio is not too picky about the number an adequate towing ration can be seen providing that the mass in service on the V5 is used as the basis, the unladen mass is a figure that is almost unable to find for the average person.

Bill

 

Growing old is compulsory, growing up is not.

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It depends what they mean by optional extras. Factory fitted options are included in the mass in running order, but not dealer fitted ones.

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In the case of my car, Lexus have covered themselves by quoting a range, from 2075 to 2115kg as Mass in Running Order in the vehicle registration document.

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It depends what they mean by optional extras. Factory fitted options are included in the mass in running order, but not dealer fitted ones.

 

But not for BMW which was the point of my post and, indeed, the definition of MinRO excludes optional extras.

Sam :beardy:

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But not for BMW which was the point of my post and, indeed, the definition of MinRO excludes optional extras.

 

MIRO includes everything that is fitted ex-works. It would be impossible to differentiate between, for example, optional wheel and tyre equipment, optional automatic transmission and optional engines, to name just a few.

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MIRO includes everything that is fitted ex-works. It would be impossible to differentiate between, for example, optional wheel and tyre equipment, optional automatic transmission and optional engines, to name just a few.

 

Lutz - apologies if I am labouring a point here but you said "Factory fitted options are included in the mass in running order" and I am saying that is not apparently the case for BMW (and others?) and that the definition for MIRO excludes options.

Sam :beardy:

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Both Nissan and Mazda publish kerb weights for each model, which makes things very simple.

 

When I looked at buying a X3 it wasn't really the kerbweight that got me confused, but the endless options they had, by the time I had added my extras the car was around 7K dearer!!, same with the XC60 Volvo.

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MIRO includes everything that is fitted ex-works. It would be impossible to differentiate between, for example, optional wheel and tyre equipment, optional automatic transmission and optional engines, to name just a few.

 

Surely automatic transmission and optional engines are fitted in the works and most manufacturers do quote different weights for those, but optional wheels and tyres, except standard ones for a trim level can't really be expected to be quoted. Mind you if Hymer can quote the weights of flyscreens, sprung as opposed to foam upholstery, Ultraheat, internal water tanks, even mudflaps etc. , I can't see why BMW can't list the extra weight involved, alongside the price.

I've got nothing to do on this hot afternoon

but to settle down and write you a line.

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When I looked at buying a X3 it wasn't really the kerbweight that got me confused, but the endless options they had, by the time I had added my extras the car was around 7K dearer!!, same with the XC60 Volvo.

That brought back memories, when I was at work a long time ago Volvo came onto the list of company cars I could have so I looked at one I can't remember the model but our cars came as the standard models and any extras you paid for youself. I didn't bother in the end as the radio cassette, electric windows etc were all very expensive add ons then and standard on nearly every other make of car.

Edited by dave11a
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Lutz - apologies if I am labouring a point here but you said "Factory fitted options are included in the mass in running order" and I am saying that is not apparently the case for BMW (and others?) and that the definition for MIRO excludes options.

 

It would clearly be nonsense for the MIRO of a car with a optional big 6 cylinder diesel and automatic transmission to be the same as its lesser brother with a standard 4 cylinder petrol and manual transmission.

 

Where in the legislation does it state that factory fitted optional extras are not included?

 

I quote straight out of the EU Directive:

 

No mention of any exclusion of optional extras. The reference to 'standard equipment in accordance with the manufacturer's specifications' does not exclude RPO's (regular production options), which are considered standard, where fitted. It only serves to differentiate between RPO's and SVO's (special vehicle options), such as taxi or police car equipment or factory-fitted LPG conversions, which are not fitted on the production line but modifications to already completed vehicles, which would be excluded.

Obviously, as the car manufacturer supplies the relevant information to the DVLA for inclusion in the V5c, the 'coupling' mentioned above, i. e. the towbar, can only be included if it is factory fitted. If the owner were to insist on including a dealer-fitted towbar it would require the V5c to be amended after the vehicle is first registered.

Edited by Lutz
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IMO kerbweights should never of been adopted as a weight ratio but kept the original Unladen weight as it is true figure and the ratio can only go down as fuel is added. To maintain a ratio on kerbweight you would need to fill up with fuel every garage .

 

 

ratios are only recommendation.

 

 

Dave

 

Unladen weight isn't documented anywhere. You would be pushed to find any source that gives genuine unladen ('dry') weight data. Even if they call it unladen weight, I doubt whether it is genuinely that within the definition of the law.

Besides, how realstic is a weight ratio based on kerbweight/mass in service/mass in running order anyway? I can't imagine that many people tow a fully laden caravan, right up to its MTPLM, with a more or less empty car, just with the driver and nothing else on board.

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Unladen weight isn't documented anywhere. You would be pushed to find any source that gives genuine unladen ('dry') weight data. Even if they call it unladen weight, I doubt whether it is genuinely that within the definition of the law.

Besides, how realstic is a weight ratio based on kerbweight/mass in service/mass in running order anyway? I can't imagine that many people tow a fully laden caravan, right up to its MTPLM, with a more or less empty car, just with the driver and nothing else on board.

Before the introduction of kerbweight the measure was a vehicles unladen weight which makes sense as the ratio can only get better adding load to the vehicle . Kerbweight is a variable based on the weight of fuel and a driver and tools.

 

Even kerbweights can change how it is measured in EU or Far east.

 

Dave

Edited by CommanderDave

Jeep Commander 3. 0 V6 CRD

Isuzu D- Max Utah Auto

Elddis Crusader Storm 2000 Kgs, Unipart Royal Atlas Mover .

 

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Away from the caravanning world lightness means less fuel used, more performance and better handling.

 

Manufacturers now include in press releases of new models how much weight they have shed compared with the previous model.

 

Lightness is becoming a selling point and that's why manufacturers like to quote the lightest figure they can get away with.

 

Not good news for us caravanners but it's only going to get worse. The big players all have major departments dedicated to weight reduction. Even Ford, VAG and BMW are all on record saying engine technology is reaching its economic/efficiency peak and the next big gains for CO2 reductions is weight loss.

Ford have said they wan to cut 250kg from the next gen Mondeo/S-Max/Galaxy/ Kuga platform

 

Cheers

Lee

Yeti 2.0TDi EU6 150 DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Fabia TSi DSG, Swift Challenger.

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post 9 Nissan were one of the brands mentioned by my dealer as giving towing "problems" due to their weight or lack of.

 

Similarly Citroen publish weights for their Picasso Grand 2014.

 

Autocar found their test sample 200 kilos over the spec in their November22nd issue.

 

Makes customers buying to tow tear our hair out-though overweight for us is good news.

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Before the introduction of kerbweight the measure was a vehicles unladen weight which makes sense as the ratio can only get better adding load to the vehicle . Kerbweight is a variable based on the weight of fuel and a driver and tools.

 

Even kerbweights can change how it is measured in EU or Far east.

 

Dave

 

The term 'kerbweight' has been around for as long as there has been a car industry. However, it has never been recognised in UK legislation. You won't find any mention of it in law. On the other hand you won't find details of 'unladen weight', which is the legal term, in any published data either.

 

There is no such thing as an EU kerbweight. In EU terms it is 'Mass in running order'.

 

 

Similarly Citroen publish weights for their Picasso Grand 2014.

 

 

As kerbweight is specific to each and every vehicle, any weight published in brochures, owner's handbooks, databases, etc. can only be regarded as a rough guideline and should not be treated as absolute.

Edited by Lutz
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It would clearly be nonsense for the MIRO of a car with a optional big 6 cylinder diesel and automatic transmission to be the same as its lesser brother with a standard 4 cylinder petrol and manual transmission.

 

 

I never said that nor even hinted at it. In the case of my BMW, weights are given for each engine in the range with no differentiation twixt SE/M Sport (cosmetic anyway) and each weight is clearly labelled "no optional extras” as stated in my first post here. Despite all my factory fitted options, the published 'standard' weight is identical to that in my V5 for Mass in Service.

 

Whatever the rights and wrongs of this are, in comparison with LR as shown in post 1, there are differences in approach.

Sam :beardy:

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As kerbweight is specific to each and every vehicle, any weight published in brochures, owner's handbooks, databases, etc. can only be regarded as a rough guideline and should not be treated as absolute.

 

Unless, of course, you own a BMW where it is absolute if the V5 means anything! But my intention as shown at the end of my first post here was not to outline anything other than this difference in approach further mocks the 85% guideline.

Sam :beardy:

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It would clearly be nonsense for the MIRO of a car with a optional big 6 cylinder diesel and automatic transmission to be the same as its lesser brother with a standard 4 cylinder petrol and manual transmission.

 

Where in the legislation does it state that factory fitted optional extras are not included?

 

I quote straight out of the EU Directive:

 

(4) ‘mass in running order’ means

 

(a) in the case of a motor vehicle:

 

the mass of the vehicle, with its fuel tank(s) filled to at

least 90 % of its or their capacity/ies, including the

mass of the driver, of the fuel and liquids, fitted with

the standard equipment in accordance with the manu

facturer’s specifications and, when they are fitted, the

mass of the bodywork, the cabin, the coupling, and the

spare wheel(s) as well as the tools.

 

No mention of any exclusion of optional extras. The reference to 'standard equipment in accordance with the manufacturer's specifications' does not exclude RPO's (regular production options), which are considered standard, where fitted. It only serves to differentiate between RPO's and SVO's (special vehicle options), such as taxi or police car equipment or factory-fitted LPG conversions, which are not fitted on the production line but modifications to already completed vehicles, which would be excluded.

Obviously, as the car manufacturer supplies the relevant information to the DVLA for inclusion in the V5c, the 'coupling' mentioned above, i. e. the towbar, can only be included if it is factory fitted. If the owner were to insist on including a dealer-fitted towbar it would require the V5c to be amended after the vehicle is first registered.

Equally I think you could argue that by definition the term standard equipment excludes optional extras

In reality I cannot see how a manufacturer can produce an individual figure for each car. Even cars of the same spec will have different weights. I cannot believe they weigh each car as it comes of the production line.

So he either bases it on the standard car or quotes a range.

 

More importantly, I think this argument has become one between pedants trying to prove a point.

In the context of caravans it doesn't really matter. The 85% ratio of kerb weight is only a guideline and it doesn't really matter if the kerb weight or MIRO isn't exact. A difference of 50 kg only varies the ratio by around 3%.

I think we need to keep things in perspective

Poolebob

Honda CRV Diesel Petrol & No caravan now. :angry:

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It would appear that as everyone, including the car manufacturers, know that published kerbweights can only be a rough guideline and kerbweight has no legal significance (at least, not in the UK) such data is not being taken too seriously.

 

Poolebob has made a very valid point that variances of 50kg or so make only about a 3% change to the weight ratio and no-one would be able to detect such a small change in the way an outfit handles.

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The big players all have major departments dedicated to weight reduction. Even Ford, VAG and BMW are all on record saying engine technology is reaching its economic/efficiency peak and the next big gains for CO2 reductions is weight loss.

Ford have said they wan to cut 250kg from the next gen Mondeo/S-Max/Galaxy/ Kuga platform

 

Cheers

Lee

Land rover have shaved approx half a tonne off new range rover and sport by using aluminium which is good for economy but not so good for towing a big twin axle :(

A Vanner without a van due to the demands of DIY and SWMBO - 40 years was a good run though :unsure:

 

Now a Motorhome Learner with a Fiat Toad :o

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Land rover have shaved approx half a tonne off new range rover and sport by using aluminium which is good for economy but not so good for towing a big twin axle :(

 

Too true but note

 

 

"When vehicle emissions assessments are focused solely on what comes out of the tailpipe, this encourages use of low-density, greenhouse gas-intensive materials that may provide lighter weight components to improve tailpipe emissions,"

 

 

Full article at

 

http://www. greenbiz. com/blog/2011/09/20/steel-industry-aluminum-our-green-auto-bodies-can-match-yours

Sam :beardy:

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