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Car Towing Question?


Stu1985
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hi, Going to pick a few brains here

 

 

Example, You have a car of 1200 max towing limit and a caravan with a Mass in Running Order of 1078 and Maximum Technical Permissible Laden Mass of 1326 and its an 83% match how is the laws stance on this, would they just see it as the mtplm being more than towing limit and your in trouble or would they look at mro and just take you to a weigh bridge to see if you have exceeded the weight

thanks

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If it is just a weight issue they look at the plate on your car, check the axle weights and the trailer axle weights, do the sums and if the cars max weight is ok and the caravans weight is ok they wave you or your way. If you have an accident involving injury then they check everything and if you all the plated weights are ok but you are over the 1200kg they may choose to prosecute and use that data as part of the evidence, but they need other evidence as well.

Bill

 

Growing old is compulsory, growing up is not.

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You would need to keep under the 1200kg as the vehicle is only type approved to 1200kg towing limit.

 

Here you would need to exceed a actual weight for the car 1200kg . In EU they look at plated weights so you could be in trouble if you hand over a vehicle reg doc and it declares the vehicles towing limit for the vehicle against the MTPLM of much higher.

 

 

It can effect insurances for the vehicle in a accident exceeding limits.

 

 

Dave

Jeep Commander 3. 0 V6 CRD

Isuzu D- Max Utah Auto

Elddis Crusader Storm 2000 Kgs, Unipart Royal Atlas Mover .

 

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With a MIRO of 1078 and a limit of 1200kg, this gives you 122kg to play with. Put a battery in and one gas cylinder does not leave much weight for anything else and you would struggle to keep the weight down. From a practical point of view it would be a bit of a pain.

Brian

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In EU they look at plated weights so you could be in trouble if you hand over a vehicle reg doc and it declares the vehicles towing limit for the vehicle against the MTPLM of much higher.

 

 

Not so. Actual weights apply and these will be compared with the respective plated limits, same as in the UK.

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The max towing limit is one which the manufacturer recommends with a view to a set number of hill starts on a set incline without causing damage to the towcar and invalidating warranty. It is not a legally enforceable limit.

 

As far as Con and Use regs go, so long as MTPLM of caravan and MAM of towcar do not add up to more than the Train Weight of the towcar it is acceptable.

 

Driving Licence rules differ, and say that if you do not have E then the max train weight for you to drive a normal car and caravan is 3500kg. If you have E then no problem exceeding 3500kg up to train weight of towcar.

 

The insurer could not decline to pay out any third party claim, but if they had a clause in the small print stating that the towcars max tow limit must not be exceeded they could theoretically decline to pay out any claim made by driver of towcar and could reclaim anything paid out to third parties from the driver, but that is not a clause I have ever seen.

Trevor.

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As has been said earlier you've effectively got a payload of 122kg, which is not a lot.

 

A gas cylinder, battery and mover could use up half of that without so much as a pair of socks or a knife and fork on board. Going over the car's towing limit can affect performance i. e. it can be exceeding slow and/or reduce braking capability, it could put more strain on the drivetrain than it was designed to manage and possibly even bend the bits the towbar is attached to. There's also potential for stability issues.

 

So all in all not a sensible thing to do.

I've got nothing to do on this hot afternoon

but to settle down and write you a line.

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A legal example for all the authorities might be useful here . ..

 

Vehicle

GVW 2200

Kerb weight 1600

GTW 3600

Towing capacity 1400

 

Trailer

MAM / MTPLM 1500

Unladen weight / MIRO 1300

 

Load vehicle with 600 and trailer / caravan with 100

 

Total weight of vehicle = 2200

Total weight of trailer = 1400

GTW = 3600

 

B+E licence required because GVW 2200 + MAM/MTPLM 1500 = 3700 which is 200 more than the B licence towing limit of 3500

 

I have not calculated any transfer weight via the hitch from trailer to vehicle in that example

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This comes back to the same old confusion on Actual weight and plated weight argument when towing a plated trailer at 1326kg with a 1200kg towing limit .

 

IMO I still think this "actual weight" used is just a loop hole in our law that has been adopted .

 

The Regulations on the roads used by our Gov quote everything as MAM ( MAX Allowable Mass ) or plated weight .

 

Under the road traffic act it stats a vehicle has to be weighed on a weighbridge for a prosecution .

The B licence is in relationship to the MAM but B+E is actual weight .

I cant see how it can be a two tier system ?

 

But there are websites that still state that it is plated weights .

 

 

REMEMBER, the law does not care whether the trailer is empty or packed to the roof with bricks, what counts is the plated gross vehicle weight of the trailer.

http://www. armitagetrailers. com/trailerlaw. htm

 

 

Dave

Edited by CommanderDave

Jeep Commander 3. 0 V6 CRD

Isuzu D- Max Utah Auto

Elddis Crusader Storm 2000 Kgs, Unipart Royal Atlas Mover .

 

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As far as driving licence restrictions are concerned, and that includes both B and B&E licences, it's the plated weights, not the actual weights that count.

 

As far as the use of the vehicle is concerned, the actual weights must not exceed the plated weights.

Edited by Lutz
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As far as driving licence restrictions are concerned, and that includes both B and B&E licences, it's the plated weights, not the actual weights that count.

 

 

in what way do you mean that? - please give an example

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in what way do you mean that? - please give an example

 

I think you gave a good example yourself in your previous post.

 

Even if the actual weight of the vehicle were 2100kg (max. GVW 2200kg) and the actual weight of the trailer 1300kg (MTPLM 1500kg), making a total of 3400kg, you would still need a B+E licence because the sum of the MAM's is 3700kg, which is 200kg over the limit.

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We still need to know the cars kerb weight, my new car has a braked towing weight of 2,000kg but only has a kerb weight of 1575kg

Paul B

. .......Mondeo Estate & Elddis Avanté 505 (Tobago)

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I think you gave a good example yourself in your previous post.

 

Even if the actual weight of the vehicle were 2100kg (max. GVW 2200kg) and the actual weight of the trailer 1300kg (MTPLM 1500kg), making a total of 3400kg, you would still need a B+E licence because the sum of the MAM's is 3700kg, which is 200kg over the limit.

 

As far as driving licence restrictions are concerned, and that includes both B and B&E licences, it's the plated weights, not the actual weights that count.

For B towing yes but you said its the same for B+E as well so could you give a B+E example of where plated weights over ride actual weights?

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Paul, why would the car's kerbweight be involved as you'd surely be using it with stuff/people on board, so the empty weight wouldn't be relevant, would it?

I've got nothing to do on this hot afternoon

but to settle down and write you a line.

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Even if the actual weight of the vehicle were 2100kg (max. GVW 2200kg) and the actual weight of the trailer 1300kg (MTPLM 1500kg), making a total of 3400kg, you would still need a B+E licence because the sum of the MAM's is 3700kg, which is 200kg over the limit.

 

For B towing yes but you said its the same for B+E as well so could you give a B+E example of where plated weights over ride actual weights?

 

Maybe we have a misunderstanding, but the above example was for a B+E licence where plated weights override actual weights.

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Paul, why would the car's kerbweight be involved as you'd surely be using it with stuff/people on board, so the empty weight wouldn't be relevant, would it?

 

The kerb weight Is a fixed weight, no one knows what a car will be carrying

 

Heres an example from towsafe http://www. towsafe. co. uk/consumer/samplereportCsumer. asp#

Paul B

. .......Mondeo Estate & Elddis Avanté 505 (Tobago)

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Paul, I still don't understand where kerbweight affects the OP's query?

 

If, as has been suggested, the maximum tow limit set by a car manufacturer (in this case 1200kg) is not a legal limit, only advisory, then the other plated limits on the car must be limits that apply, plus of course any licence limits which the OP wasn't asking about. There seems to be a difference of opinion as to whether plated limits or actual weights are what counts legally, but I can't see where a kerbweight comes into that discussion?

I've got nothing to do on this hot afternoon

but to settle down and write you a line.

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Paul, I still don't understand where kerbweight affects the OP's query?

 

If, as has been suggested, the maximum tow limit set by a car manufacturer (in this case 1200kg) is not a legal limit, only advisory, then the other plated limits on the car must be limits that apply, plus of course any licence limits which the OP wasn't asking about. There seems to be a difference of opinion as to whether plated limits or actual weights are what counts legally, but I can't see where a kerbweight comes into that discussion?

 

 

But the vehicle has a type approval that has been declared by the manufacturer so it is now a legal limit under Construction and Use offence for the towing limit.

 

 

Dave

Jeep Commander 3. 0 V6 CRD

Isuzu D- Max Utah Auto

Elddis Crusader Storm 2000 Kgs, Unipart Royal Atlas Mover .

 

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'Type Approval' has sort of crept into usage without me really noticing and I don't really understand what it means or its implications, although I suspect those closely involved in car etc manufacture do. I also suspect that most ordinary punters haven't a clue about it either.

I've got nothing to do on this hot afternoon

but to settle down and write you a line.

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'Type Approval' has sort of crept into usage without me really noticing and I don't really understand what it means or its implications, although I suspect those closely involved in car etc manufacture do. I also suspect that most ordinary punters haven't a clue about it either.

 

 

That's why now it is declared on the V5 with the vehicles information.

 

 

Dave

Jeep Commander 3. 0 V6 CRD

Isuzu D- Max Utah Auto

Elddis Crusader Storm 2000 Kgs, Unipart Royal Atlas Mover .

 

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There is no legal requirement that is associated with kerbweight, at least not in the UK, so kerbweight is of academic interest only. From that perspective one can argue that it is irrelevant.

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Maybe we have a misunderstanding, but the above example was for a B+E licence where plated weights override actual weights.

I think I see what you are saying - because the plated weights are above the 3500 for B then the licence must be B+E even if the actual weight was not more than 3500 or the plated GTW is not more than 3500

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There is no legal requirement that is associated with kerbweight, at least not in the UK, so kerbweight is of academic interest only. From that perspective one can argue that it is irrelevant.

I'll go along with that as well

 

The only time kerbweight is used now for any sort of towing calculation is as a fixed point when calculating the recommended percentage differences for a caravan MTPLM - another fixed point

Although the actual recommendation is not to have the actual weight of a caravan more than 85% of the actual weight of the towing vehicle - a fact which could only be determined by actually weighing both at the time of towing or doing some very precise calaculations!!

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I have spoken to a lot of people about this, including VOSA and the police, and even there, there is confusion, but the conclusion is, at the end of the day, if you are pulled over, the officer will generally be interested in your plated weights, if your MTPLM is higher than your cars tow limit, you are in trouble, you will also be in trouble with your insurance, everyone tends to scream me down on this subject, but it is serious, if the police judge you to be overweight, which you are, they can do you for no insurance on the spot.

As far as I and the authorities I have spoken to are concerned, if your MTPLM exceeds your maximum tow limit, your are illegal.

There is no legal requirement that is associated with kerbweight, at least not in the UK, so kerbweight is of academic interest only. From that perspective one can argue that it is irrelevant.

Agree, my Landrover weighs 2 tonnes and can to 3. 5 tonnes, what relevance is kerb weight on that one.

Land Rover Discovery and Conquerer 630

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