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Fires Involving Lithium Batteries


Bobby Brocklebank
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Was recently updating a EU Ops presentation (EU Ops beings a course on in flight firefighting for flight deck and cabin staff personnel) Big emphasis on Lithium Batteries that power Lap tops, mobile phone, Ipads, Ipods etc. .. Got me thinking how many of us caravaners take these gadgets with us when away and how would you deal with one if it caught fire . .... Link is very good and as the chap said always disconnect the power before applying water. .....

 

GAS . .... :angry:

 

 

 

BBC News - Warning over exploding batteries on planes

"to be auld and wise you must first be young and daft "

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Didn't Boeing have troubles with their Dreamliner and Lithium batteries causing fires?

Graham

Unless otherwise stated all posts are my personal opinion 

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Seems strange that they provide charging points on passenger aircraft seats as probably the biggest risk is passengers mobiles/tabs etc where the replacement battery is the cheapest the owner could find on that internet auction site.

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I think this needs getting into context, how many of us have experienced a battery fire? Considering the number of lithium batteries around it should be raining aeroplanes if these alarmist news items are to be believed. I own an I. T. Shop and also worked in an Academy for 12 years not once in my lifetime have I seen or heard of a battery going off like this. If they are charged incorrectly or shorted it is possible to get a reaction as shown in the video. I personally wouldn't worry too much.

 

Ap

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The doom brigade was on the TV this morning terrifying the public with demonstrations of exploding batteries. I've seen bog-standard Duracell AA's explode with such a force that the electrodes have gone through the ceiling and my mate actually set fire to his briefcase when he dropped a couple of rechargeable AAs in there and forgot that his keys were in there as well.

 

So lets not get paranoid about it and end up with the H&S brigade wanting everyone to dunk their mobile phones or laptops in a bucket before getting on buses, trains or aeroplanes

2018 S-Max Titanium 2. 0 Tdci (177. 54bhp,180ps,132kw) Powershift + 2015 Unicorn III Cadz, Ventura Marlin porch awning

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The doom brigade was on the TV this morning terrifying the public with demonstrations of exploding batteries. I've seen bog-standard Duracell AA's explode with such a force that the electrodes have gone through the ceiling and my mate actually set fire to his briefcase when he dropped a couple of rechargeable AAs in there and forgot that his keys were in there as well.

 

So lets not get paranoid about it and end up with the H&S brigade wanting everyone to dunk their mobile phones or laptops in a bucket before getting on buses, trains or aeroplanes

Exactly, I work offshore and whilst we're not allowed to operate mobile devices whilst on Heli's flights or outside the accommodation areas there are no other restrictions.

 

Ap

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By the same token I have insured my house for the last 30 years and never seen it catch fire.

If there is a failure in the electronics of the device that control the charging of the battery then there could be a problem.

Land Rover is now back towing.

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I wouldn't mind but they are all encouraging people to use their mobile devices on buses trains and even aeroplanes. Once upon a time we could have a bit of peace and quiet on a plane, but they are now putting mobile phone facilities in them as well. Bus and train trips are already hell with everyone shouting into their phones, just think what its going to be like on a long-haul flightwith your next door passenger gabbling away for hours - I'd welcome an exploding battery :(

2018 S-Max Titanium 2. 0 Tdci (177. 54bhp,180ps,132kw) Powershift + 2015 Unicorn III Cadz, Ventura Marlin porch awning

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Was recently updating a EU Ops presentation (EU Ops beings a course on in flight firefighting for flight deck and cabin staff personnel) Big emphasis on Lithium Batteries that power Lap tops, mobile phone, Ipads, Ipods etc. .. Got me thinking how many of us caravaners take these gadgets with us when away and how would you deal with one if it caught fire . .... Link is very good and as the chap said always disconnect the power before applying water. .....

 

GAS . .... :angry:

 

 

 

BBC News - Warning over exploding batteries on planes

 

 

Another quiet news day!

 

Makes a change from the weather at least. .....

Ford "FutureTaxi". less bhp than last year, sticky toffy down seat rail. Towing big white box with comfy seats and some steak knives from daughters boyfriend.

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I have dealt with this topic at some length in previous postings and others with my experience have contributed.

 

I use the most dangerous form of this type of battery available to the general public the high discharge/recharge-up to 5C- model aircraft/helicopter batteries which are described in the industry as "experimental"

 

This technology has caused fires on aircraft fortunately so far no loss of life.

 

The model aircraft type batteries have burned down property and vehicles- to date I know of no loss of life.

 

The reason we have had so few fires with phones power tools etc is industrial design/manufacture.

 

All these products are encapsulated in factories and the chargers are dedicated to the individual product.

 

Our fire protection officer told us mobile phones left on charge have led to property fires- I cannot find evidence of this.

 

As I have previously stated the problem with this energy source is overcharging- short circuiting- damage can lead to a chemical fire.

This cannot be dealt with using common anti fire techniques EG removing oxygen with foam lowering temperature with water because the battery contains all the components of combustion.

 

Another problem is this type of battery can deliver a lot of energy in a very short time span so melting wiring is a distinct possibility with the attendant risk of fire.

 

I am VERY careful charging my batteries I never leave them unattended and use thermal probes to check the battery temperature when required.

 

To end on a high note the LiPo cell is amazing device and the technology is advancing at an incredible pace EG from 1C to 5C in less than 3 years.

Model aircraft powered by this technology are comparable in endurance and horsepower to the typical 1HP club machine.

Already the LiPo is the cell of choice to power hand tools.

My LiPo powered Hitachi drill driver is a very impressive bit of kit lighter more powerful quicker charging and so far excellent power retention.

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Model aircraft powered by this technology are comparable in endurance and horsepower to the typical 1HP club machine.

Already the LiPo is the cell of choice to power hand tools.

 

Model aircraft still don't compare when looking a tic engine v electric, for example my Buddy trainer can go 50 minutes plus powered by an so 52 surpass and has a good level of performance similar to a Wot 4, no electric model can compare, not even close. I agree that there are many electric models that are acceptable but they're definately not comparable.

 

Lithium Ion is the most popular for power tools, laptops, phones, cameras etc NOT LiPoly

 

Ap

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Many people plug their laptop in to the mains supply and work all day,

but they don't take their battery out!

The battery and charger circuit overheat and can sometimes cause one

of these battery fires. Beaware.

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I think this needs getting into context, how many of us have experienced a battery fire? Considering the number of lithium batteries around it should be raining aeroplanes if these alarmist news items are to be believed. I own an I. T. Shop and also worked in an Academy for 12 years not once in my lifetime have I seen or heard of a battery going off like this. If they are charged incorrectly or shorted it is possible to get a reaction as shown in the video. I personally wouldn't worry too much.

 

Ap

 

Caravan fires are a rarity but do happen As you said these types of fires are also a rarity and working in the Fire and Rescue at a International Airport have the evidence of battery related incidents. Just making us aware of the dangers and how to deal with such a incident and also has nothing to do with a " Bad News Day" . ... :rolleyes: Just preaching some Safety Awareness . .......... ;)

 

GAS . ............ :angry:

"to be auld and wise you must first be young and daft "

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Saw this being discussed by aviation types earlier, this quote from one of my friends who is a BA Purser:@ -

 

I have to say, this is one that actually needs more publicity. We've had at least 2 inflight fires plus one lounge fire that I know of this past year alone, caused by these batteries. They don't even have to be knock off batteries. We have numerous PA's telling pax not to leave phones, ipads etc on charge while they sleep yet still, I find them fast asleep while a phone or ipad that's plugged into the in seat power is tucked down beside them in the hope we won't spot it. That's really going to help stop them overheating!

Sorry people but if I see any PEDs plugged in while you are sleeping, I will unplug them. If I can't reach the plug, I will wake you up. It doesn't matter how much you try to hide the plugs etc, the light on the side of the seat gives you away.

 

A few incidents!

 

http://avherald. com/h?article=469182f0&opt=0

 

http://avherald. com/h?article=446c4f7f/0018&opt=0

 

http://avherald. com/h?article=44e25cdf&opt=0

 

http://avherald. com/h?article=43d462c7&opt=0

 

http://avherald. com/h?article=447a59b1&opt=0

Edited by Ich

My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely

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You notice I said the typical club machine.

 

That's about 1HP 5 footish wingspan and flown for about 15-20 minutes.

 

LiPos easily achieve this with some BIG pluses.

 

1 Very important quiet

 

2 Very important to me clean.

 

3 Very important for learners and in winter-start first time and keeps going.

 

I went all electric helicopter and fixed wing a few years back I will not be returning to noisy messy temperamental IC engines.

 

I did like flying my 4 stroke and two stroke powered models now we have quiet clean electric power.

 

I do realise many fliers adore the scream of 2 stroke powered nitro machines.

 

Unfortunately in my 56 flying years I have seen many flying sites lost because of noise.


I stand corrected on lithium ion note BOTH are capable of thermal run away despite assurances to the contrary.

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Caravan fires are a rarity but do happen As you said these types of fires are also a rarity and working in the Fire and Rescue at a International Airport have the evidence of battery related incidents. Just making us aware of the dangers and how to deal with such a incident and also has nothing to do with a " Bad News Day" . ... :rolleyes: Just preaching some Safety Awareness . .......... ;)

 

GAS . ............ :angry:

 

I wasn't having a pop at you for posting it. I am sure it is very relevant safety info. I worked on the aftermath of the 85 Manchester airport crash so I know fire and planes don't mix.

 

I was complaining about every news programme covering it to bits, even radio Lancashire covered it.

 

There was also some posh geezer wearing wellies having a paddle in Somerset.

Ford "FutureTaxi". less bhp than last year, sticky toffy down seat rail. Towing big white box with comfy seats and some steak knives from daughters boyfriend.

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You notice I said the typical club machine.

 

That's about 1HP 5 footish wingspan and flown for about 15-20 minutes.

 

LiPos easily achieve this with some BIG pluses.

 

1 Very important quiet

 

2 Very important to me clean.

 

3 Very important for learners and in winter-start first time and keeps going.

 

I went all electric helicopter and fixed wing a few years back I will not be returning to noisy messy temperamental IC engines.

 

I did like flying my 4 stroke and two stroke powered models now we have quiet clean electric power.

 

I do realise many fliers adore the scream of 2 stroke powered nitro machines.

 

Unfortunately in my 56 flying years I have seen many flying sites lost because of noise.

 

 

As an Area Chief Examiner I have also seen flying sites lost due to noise, I've also seen some electric aircraft that don't meet the BMFA noise guidelines. Props are the biggest source of noise and that's common to both electric and ic.

 

I'm not disagreeing on the merits and practicality, only the reference that it is comparable to ic engines which it isn't. it will truly be a great day when we can achieve that, electric cars will become a practical reality.

 

I stand corrected on lithium ion note BOTH are capable of thermal run away despite assurances to the contrary.

lithium Ion takes considerably more abuse to make it go, it is unlikely to be triggered or damaged by over discharging whereas LiPoly can go off just with a change of temperature from cold to warm if fully charged. LiIon is much, much safer.

 

Ap

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We will just have to disagree then :).

 

I fly fully aerobatic scale 1 to 1/2 HP.

 

All electric 15 to 20 minutes useful duration.

 

You are correct electric cannot emulate 20cc petrol engine aircraft but most club fliers do not fly these mega expensive beasts.

 

I use 3 batteries and charge them off the car battery when they are down to about 30% charge.

 

No problems to date.

 

After 2 seasons of flying my favourite planes are still immaculate.

That would not be the case with glow fuel spraying over them.

 

All indoor flying helicopter quad and fixed wing is electric.

 

I do appreciate that many RC fliers prefer IC.


On the lithium ion point.

 

You will find that the boing dreamaker fire was caused by the so called "safe" LiIon batteries.

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We will just have to disagree then :).

 

I fly fully aerobatic scale 1 to 1/2 HP.

 

All electric 15 to 20 minutes useful duration.

 

You are correct electric cannot emulate 20cc petrol engine aircraft but most club fliers do not fly these mega expensive beasts.

 

I use 3 batteries and charge them off the car battery when they are down to about 30% charge.

 

No problems to date.

 

After 2 seasons of flying my favourite planes are still immaculate.

That would not be the case with glow fuel spraying over them.

 

All indoor flying helicopter quad and fixed wing is electric.

 

I do appreciate that many RC fliers prefer IC.

On the lithium ion point.

 

You will find that the boing dreamaker fire was caused by the so called "safe" LiIon batteries.

Yep I'm fully aware of the Dreamliner, like anything, with appropriate abuse it will burn, even water! As I said LiIon is the safer rather than safe option with Lithium based batteries hence why they're used in just about everything except models.

 

Yes we will agree to differ, as I said again IF they were comparable you would have fantastic electric cars, we don't because they aren't yet, viable yes, compromise yes, comparable not yet.

 

Ap

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Hi,

There's a lot of Nimh cells about in drills model aircraft etc guess what happens if air gets in the cell---------------

 

P. S. had a nimh cell overheat ( could not touch ) chucked it out of the window------------ and it went pop !

Skoda Scout 4x4 pulling a coachman Amara 520/4 at 93%---- when full!

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I've had two Lipo incidents in my RC Truggy, it's not a pleasant sight. It filled the local park with smoke. Lipo's are very sensitive when it comes to charge/discharge currents and over voltage and in both my cases puncturing the case. The biggest problem I find nowadays is tring to buy them as they are banned from air mail and now some land carriers won't touch them (unless installed within a device)

 

To the post saying IC is better than Brushless electric is rubbish. My motor runs on 6s (25. 2v fully charged) at 3000w and mine is now classed as old technology.

Regards,

Kevin

Honda F-RV towing 1999 Bailey Senator Montana

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Post 21

 

I agree electric LiPo powered aircraft using brushless motors brushless controllers electric props and 2. 4 meg gear is the way forward especially sub 2HP.

 

We have lost umpteen sites in my 40 plus years of club flying.

 

All with one exception the result of one or two selfish individuals flying their high revving two strokes at full chat at the weekend.

 

I do realise there is a lot of money to be made selling IC model engines :D.

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To the post saying IC is better than Brushless electric is rubbish. My motor runs on 6s (25. 2v fully charged) at 3000w and mine is now classed as old technology.

And your car, full sized aircraft, trucks are fitted with ic engines because?

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Not for much longer mate. What do trains run on now? . ... Electric, they might have diesel generators but the wheels are only powered by electric. The torque is liner so it produces the same amazing level at minimum rpm to maximum with no flat spots. Trains are electric because the 'fuel' is cheaper. As we the consumer is not intrested in fuel costs to the same extent electric cars and trucks are uncommon. IMO 5 years and electric 7. 5tonne and less trucks and vans will be everywhere

Regards,

Kevin

Honda F-RV towing 1999 Bailey Senator Montana

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Always knew this fact would come in handy doctor Porsche did not just invent the VW beetle and a sports car.

 

He also designed the Tiger Tank!

 

He was so confident his tank would be taken up by Herr Hitler he made 100 of them!

 

It was way ahead of its time by 50 years!

 

Two diesel engines driving each track via generators and electric motors-the work of genius.

 

Unfortunately? on the day of its test it went on fire and Heinkel won the contract.

 

If only he had used LiPo batteries :D.

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