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Towing Weights Again ?


Bobby Brocklebank
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Just a quick one . .. Even after 20 odd years owning vans GAS should know this one. ... :blush: I have always had reasonably Big Tugs so weight ratios were always well within the advised boundary. ..

 

The MIRO on my present van is 1171kgs the Max being 1388kgs. ..... Tugs Max Towing Weight is 1340 KGS. ... Can some one please work out the MIRO and MAX in a percentage against the 1340kg Max . ..... Ma figures seem to be very wrong being a bit Dilly Dimple . ....My present van is on hold for one of my work colleagues to buy but was looking to do a wee trip obviously as light as can be. .. plus will have to Tow it home from Storage for viewing. .. Had a online formula but is out of date. ... Thanks a ;) gain . .....

 

GAS . ...... :angry:

"to be auld and wise you must first be young and daft "

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Why should you want to know the percentages? They wouldn't be comparable with the weight ratio percentage because that is the MTPLM relative to the kerbweight of the car, not relative to its maximum towing weight.

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1388 is 103. 5% of 1340

 

So you can't load up to MTPLM only car max towing weight

 

The MIRO 188 is about 87% of the car max tow weight 1340

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1388 is 103. 5% of 1340

 

So you can't load up to MTPLM only car max towing weight

 

The MIRO 188 is about 87% of the car max tow weight 1340

 

No, the max. towing weight is the MTPLM less the noseweight. Therefore, so long as the noseweight exceeds 48kg, you can load it up to its MTPLM.

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No, the max. towing weight is the MTPLM less the noseweight. Therefore, so long as the noseweight exceeds 48kg, you can load it up to its MTPLM.

 

If you load the un-hitched caravan to MTPLM which is 1388Kg

How can it be legal to tow it with a car with a towing capacity of 1340Kgs

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No, the max. towing weight is the MTPLM less the noseweight. Therefore, so long as the noseweight exceeds 48kg, you can load it up to its MTPLM.

 

No you can't.

 

If the max tow of the car is 1340Kg and the MTPLM of the caravan is 1388Kg fully loaded, the caravan would exceed the cars max tow by 48Kg.

 

The nose weight is a red herring in this calculation, however way you look at it the cars max tow is 48Kgs less than the caravan would weigh if loaded to its MTPLM.

 

You would need to ensure your caravan was loaded to ensure it did not exceed the cars max tow, however if the police stopped you, they would make their calculations on the plates providing the information on both your car and caravan, if there was any doubt they would take you to a weighbridge and confirm things.

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The MASS of the trailer still would be the same no matter how it is carried either on the Axle or noseweight and our police and VOSA work on Mass weights .

 

 

Dave

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No you can't.

 

If the max tow of the car is 1340Kg and the MTPLM of the caravan is 1388Kg fully loaded, the caravan would exceed the cars max tow by 48Kg.

 

The nose weight is a red herring in this calculation, however way you look at it the cars max tow is 48Kgs less than the caravan would weigh if loaded to its MTPLM.

 

 

I would suggest you read how towload is defined before making the above statement.

 

The maximum towload is not defined as the maximum total weight of the caravan being towed.

 

 

 

If you load the un-hitched caravan to MTPLM which is 1388Kg

How can it be legal to tow it with a car with a towing capacity of 1340Kgs

 

The car is not towing the total weight of the caravan. It is towing the total weight minus the noseweight. It is carrying, but not towing, the noseweight. The noseweight is therefore part of the car's gross vehicle weight.

 

 

The MASS of the trailer still would be the same no matter how it is carried either on the Axle or noseweight and our police and VOSA work on Mass weights .

 

 

Dave

 

Can't argue with that, but the towable mass is the still the total mass less the vertical load on the towball.

Edited by Lutz
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1171 is 87%

1388 is 104%

 

Drive at night with a balaclava on and no one will bother you ;)

 

H.

 

ps thanks for raking up a dead thread topic ;)

Finding things funny since 1968 :blink:

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I would suggest you read how towload is defined before making the above statement.

 

The maximum towload is not defined as the maximum total weight of the caravan being towed.

 

 

 

The car is not towing the total weight of the caravan. It is towing the total weight minus the noseweight. It is carrying, but not towing, the noseweight.

 

You can try and complicate it as much as you like, but to keep things simple so the majority of people will understand it, my statement stands.

 

In addition the UK police take the simple calculation of plated weights as they are facts, not someones (your) interpretation of one of the many rules and regulation laid down in UK and EU legislation.

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Is it any wonder why newbies are confused? And oldies like me?

There have been quite a few threads on this - all of which confuse me so I tow with a Sorento on the basis that it will pull (nearly) anything!

Graham

Unless otherwise stated all posts are my personal opinion 

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Hi GAS!! Put some Irish plates on it and talk with an Irish accent, The Police won't bother

you then. ;) . .........Can't get caravanning out of your blood can you?? :D:D

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I would suggest you read how towload is defined before making the above statement.

 

The maximum towload is not defined as the maximum total weight of the caravan being towed.

 

 

 

The car is not towing the total weight of the caravan. It is towing the total weight minus the noseweight. It is carrying, but not towing, the noseweight. The noseweight is therefore part of the car's gross vehicle weight.

 

 

 

Can't argue with that, but the towable mass is the still the total mass less the vertical load on the towball.

That may be the case in Germany, but the op is not in Germany. Here in the UK, things are different. If the police are not convinced that your rig is legal, they will pull you in and weigh you. First, they weigh the whole combination, to check that the outfit does not exceed the towcars max train weight. Then they weigh the towcar itself to ensure that the vehicle is not loaded over it's max gross weight, and that no axle weights are exceeded. Finally they weigh the trailer to check that, A) The trailer is not loaded above it's MAM, B) The trailers mass as weighed does not exceed the towcars max towing capacity for braked or unbraked trailers, and C) That the drivers driving licence permits him to tow the trailer at it's weighed mass. The only time the trailers noseweight is taken into consideration, is when checking that it does not exceed the towcars max permissible noseweight. Due to the nature of my work, I use my Landy to to trailers weighing from 250kg to 4000kg, and spend at least 70% of my driving miles with a trailer attached. I get pulled over by VOSA/Police at least twice a month usually more, to the extent that the VOSA inspector and I know each other on a first name basis.

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Hi GAS!! Put some Irish plates on it and talk with an Irish accent, The Police won't bother

you then. ;) . .........Can't get caravanning out of your blood can you?? :D:D

 

AWE NAW !!!! Sorry Gents for starting a mini CT WAR !!! :lol: Right I'm a bit confused . ... I know I'm illegal being 48kgs over towing capacity of the Ceed . ... My glimmer of hope being able to Tow legally is the MIRO being 1171 kgs being 87% This is the weight of the caravan in standard trim as it leaves the factory, it includes a tolerance of plus or minus 3% per cent.

 

Soo ?? That means I can Tow legally as long as I'm only taken a clean pair of underpants with me ??? I'm away back to the cupboard under the stairs . ...... :)

 

GAS . ..... :angry:

"to be auld and wise you must first be young and daft "

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Why should you want to know the percentages? They wouldn't be comparable with the weight ratio percentage because that is the MTPLM relative to the kerbweight of the car, not relative to its maximum towing weight.

 

:blink: !! Sorry Lutz as clear as ma auld Grannies home made broth. ... I like ma figures as a percentage simply to keep with in the 100% that's all . ..... Always had Big Tugs in the past and did not get many Lucky Bags at school for counting . .... ;)

 

GAS . .. :angry:

"to be auld and wise you must first be young and daft "

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You can try and complicate it as much as you like, but to keep things simple so the majority of people will understand it, my statement stands.

 

In addition the UK police take the simple calculation of plated weights as they are facts, not someones (your) interpretation of one of the many rules and regulation laid down in UK and EU legislation.

 

Don't blame me for the way the regulations are written.

 

Just read 92/21/EC Annex II Paragraph 2. 6, quote:

 

"Towable mass means the mass of the trailer towed excluding the vertical load on the coupling point of the towing vehicle."

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AWE NAW !!!! Sorry Gents for starting a mini CT WAR !!! :lol: Right I'm a bit confused . ... I know I'm illegal being 48kgs over towing capacity of the Ceed . ... My glimmer of hope being able to Tow legally is the MIRO being 1171 kgs being 87% This is the weight of the caravan in standard trim as it leaves the factory, it includes a tolerance of plus or minus 3% per cent.

 

Soo ?? That means I can Tow legally as long as I'm only taken a clean pair of underpants with me ??? I'm away back to the cupboard under the stairs . ...... :)

 

GAS . ..... :angry:

As long as the weighed mass does not; A) Exceed the caravans max weight, A) Exceed the towcars towing capacity C) Bring the outfits train weight above the max trainweight of the towcar, you will be fine. The percentage value is irrelevant as far as legality is concerned.

Edited by martin1512
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That may be the case in Germany, but the op is not in Germany. Here in the UK, things are different. If the police are not convinced that your rig is legal, they will pull you in and weigh you. First, they weigh the whole combination, to check that the outfit does not exceed the towcars max train weight. Then they weigh the towcar itself to ensure that the vehicle is not loaded over it's max gross weight, and that no axle weights are exceeded. Finally they weigh the trailer to check that, A) The trailer is not loaded above it's MAM, B) The trailers mass as weighed does not exceed the towcars max towing capacity for braked or unbraked trailers, and C) That the drivers driving licence permits him to tow the trailer at it's weighed mass. The only time the trailers noseweight is taken into consideration, is when checking that it does not exceed the towcars max permissible noseweight. Due to the nature of my work, I use my Landy to to trailers weighing from 250kg to 4000kg, and spend at least 70% of my driving miles with a trailer attached. I get pulled over by VOSA/Police at least twice a month usually more, to the extent that the VOSA inspector and I know each other on a first name basis.

 

A weight is a weight and a mass is a mass whether it is measured in Germany or the UK and the regulations throughout the EU are the same and they are quite clear as to the definition of towable mass.

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You can try and complicate it as much as you like, but to keep things simple so the majority of people will understand it, my statement stands.

 

In addition the UK police take the simple calculation of plated weights as they are facts, not someones (your) interpretation of one of the many rules and regulation laid down in UK and EU legislation.

Plated weights do not come into it as it is not licence related. UK police measure axle weights and as long as each axle weight is within the specified limits and the various totals are correct then they send you on your way. That being the case their check is with the cars weight plate so as long as the train weight is not exceeded there is no problem. If by some strange cooncidence they happen to be able to access the manufacturers tow load as it is stated in the handbook then Lutz is again correct in saying that as long as the noseweight is at least 48kg that the apparent weight being towed will be within the specified towload.

Bill

 

Growing old is compulsory, growing up is not.

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As long as the weighed mass does not; A) Exceed the caravans max weight, B) Exceed the towcars towing capacity C) Bring the outfits train weight above the max trainweight of the towcar, you will be fine. The percentage value is irrelevant as far as legality is concerned.

 

Suppose the Test will be when I pick it up . ... Another plus with ma wee Ceed £120 including electrics for a Towbar . .... . ... Thanks again Gents for your Help. Appreciate this has been done to death in the past but lets not get to heated. ... ;)

 

GAS . .. :angry:

"to be auld and wise you must first be young and daft "

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A weight is a weight and a mass is a mass whether it is measured in Germany or the UK and the regulations throughout the EU are the same and they are quite clear as to the definition of towable mass.

Try explaining that to the traffic officer that is writing your ticket. As far as they are concerned all plated weights must be complied with, and the weights used to check legality are what they see on the weighbridge. If the trailer mass exceeds the vehicles max towing weight capacity, they will prosecute you. They do not subtract noseweight when weighing the van.

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Try explaining that to the traffic officer that is writing your ticket. As far as they are concerned all plated weights must be complied with, and the weights used to check legality are what they see on the weighbridge. If the trailer mass exceeds the vehicles max towing weight capacity, they will prosecute you. They do not subtract noseweight when weighing the van.

 

And where does my statement conflict with plated weights?

 

Gross vehicle weight is the sum of the front and rear axle loads of the towing vehicle and this includes the noseweight.

 

The MTPLM of the trailer is the total weight of the trailer, i. e. axle load plus noseweight.

 

The maximum allowable towed load is the MTPLM less the noseweight, in other words the axle load of the trailer.

 

The gross train weight is the sum of all axle loads of the towing vehicle and the trailer combined. Consequently, it is also the sum of the gross vehicle weight of the towing vehicle (see definition of GVW above) and the axle load of the trailer.

 

Where's the problem?

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Dear oh dear. How often has this subject been discussed on different caravanning forums I wonder?

 

It's all pretty simple really. The only legalities you need to worry about are:-

 

1) The caravan must not exceed the plated Maximum Technically Permissible Laden Mass (MTPLM)

 

2) The total weight of the car and caravan must not exceed the Maximum Gross Train Weight specified for the towcar.

 

There is nothing to prevent anyone from towing a trailer that weighs more than 100% of the towcar's kerbweight.

 

When the authorities check a caravan they place a weighing device below each of the road wheels and the nosewheel will be resting on the ground, so whatever load is being carried on the nosewheel will not be counted in the measured weight of the caravan. As Lutz has said the noseweight of 100Kg is not towed but it is carried by the car and therefore counts into the Gross Train Weight.


Sorry Lutz - our posts overlapped.

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but only and alone we fight for freedom,

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Try explaining that to the traffic officer that is writing your ticket. As far as they are concerned all plated weights must be complied with, and the weights used to check legality are what they see on the weighbridge. If the trailer mass exceeds the vehicles max towing weight capacity, they will prosecute you. They do not subtract noseweight when weighing the van.

 

 

Vehicle manufacturers' tow limits are not a legal definition but are based on the ability of the car to restart on a specified gradient and its braking and transmission performance Some cars have an unbraked trailer weight of less than 750kg maximum permitted but a braked trailer weight considerably higher based on the braking ability of the combination.

 

Weight checks of a vehicle and trailer consists of axle weights which will be used to measure the vehicle's actual weight and the trailer's actual axle(s) weights and used to calculate the actual train weight all to be checked against the plated weights. .

 

An uncoupled trailer is not a vehicle and cannot move so there is no point in weighing it as such except in the unlikely situation there is reason to suspect that the nose weight exceeds the vehicle tow bar S value. . When coupled up any nose weight is added the the tow vehicle weight.

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An uncoupled trailer is not a vehicle and cannot move so there is no point in weighing it as such except in the unlikely situation there is reason to suspect that the nose weight exceeds the vehicle tow bar S value. . When coupled up any nose weight is added the the tow vehicle weight.

 

Since when is a trailer not a vehicle? It fulfils the definition of a vehicle. OK, it's not a motor vehicle, but it's still a vehicle (Class O).

Edited by Lutz
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