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KimmyandGinge
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I've got a Sterling Eccles Moonstone 2005,

 

On the the plate it says the Maximum Technical Permissible Laden Mass 1430 kgs

 

Now, im soon to be changing cars, the car in mind is a 2008 Nissan X-Trail 2 litre diesel AUTO

 

The max towing weight for an auto i've found is 1350 kgs (i think)

 

So, my question is, will i be braking the law towing the van with that car??

 

Also, if i was towing said van with said car, would it not handle very well??

 

Cheers!!

Hyundai Santa Fe 2. 2 Premium Auto 2010 - Sterling Eccles Moonstone 2005 - Kampa Ace Air 300 2016
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IMO you'd be unwise to go for that combination. Most people load the caravan very close to the MTPLM if not exceed it. It will be nigh impossible to load below the permitted max of the towcar, unless almost nothing is inside the caravan and all placed in the towcar. Get your caravan to a weighbridge 'as you use it' asap to find out what you actually load it to and if it would even be possible to get down to the 1350kg.

 

I'd prefer to never be too close to the max towing capacity of any vehicle for fear of over-taxing the transmission units.

 

As to the law, that I'll leave to the 'experts' here.

2012 Bailey Pegasus 2 Rimini towed by 2019 Ford Galaxy Titanium X, 2.0 EcoBlue, 8 speed auto.

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to tow that van you would need the manual xtrail it as a lot higher max tow than the auto.

LUNAR LEXON DS ROYAL HERCULES MOVER, 2017 Seat Alhambra 184 se lux & SSANGYONG REXTON 2. 9 RUNNING ON VEG OIL. 1982 HONDA CX500EC. YAMAHA XJ600S. 2006 FORD KA

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I've got a Sterling Eccles Moonstone 2005,

 

On the the plate it says the Maximum Technical Permissible Laden Mass 1430 kgs

 

Now, im soon to be changing cars, the car in mind is a 2008 Nissan X-Trail 2 litre diesel AUTO

 

The max towing weight for an auto i've found is 1350 kgs (i think)

 

So, my question is, will i be braking the law towing the van with that car??

 

Also, if i was towing said van with said car, would it not handle very well??

 

Cheers!!

The answer is may be.

 

This is what I posted elsewhere in response to a similar query

 

The highway code states:

Vehicle towing and loading. As a driver

  • you MUST NOT tow more than your licence permits. If you passed a car test after 1 Jan 1997 you are restricted on the weight of trailer you can tow
  • you MUST NOT overload your vehicle or trailer. You should not tow a weight greater than that recommended by the manufacturer of your vehicle
  • you MUST secure your load and it MUST NOT stick out dangerously. Make sure any heavy or sharp objects and any animals are secured safely. If there is a collision, they might hit someone inside the vehicle and cause serious injury
  • you should properly distribute the weight in your caravan or trailer with heavy items mainly over the axle(s) and ensure a downward load on the tow ball. Manufacturer’s recommended weight and tow ball load should not be exceeded. This should avoid the possibility of swerving or snaking and going out of control. If this does happen, ease off the accelerator and reduce speed gently to regain control

Note that "must" and "should" mean different things.

 

That refers to Clause 100 of the C & U regulations which state:

100. (1) A motor vehicle, every trailer drawn thereby and all parts and accessories of such vehicle and trailer shall at all times be in such condition, and the number of passengers carried by such vehicle or trailer, the manner in which any passengers are carried in or on such vehicle or trailer, and the weight, distribution, packing and adjustment of the load of such vehicle or trailer shall at all times be such, that no danger is caused or is likely to be caused to any person in or on the vehicle or trailer or on a road.

 

So it would seem being overweight it is not an absolute offence and it would be for the police and court to decide if it was dangerous . 'Iif the actual weight of the van is less than the max towing weight of the car you ought to have a good defence IF the police decided to take action.

 

Hope this helps

 

poolebob

Honda CRV Diesel Petrol & No caravan now. :angry:

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Hi K&G. You can tow the caravan BUT you are limited to the maximum braked towing limit of your vehicle.

That creates an underutilised weight carrying potential with your caravan,

If you are going to continue with the caravan then you need to establish EXACTLY what the MiRO is,I do not mean what you are told that it is. I mean get it weighed. Take everything out and present it as the manufacturer deemed the MiRO is.

 

The image that I have attached is of my 2001 Crusader SuperSirocco (MTPLM 1750kgs) on the back of my (just sold) 1997 Volvo V70 T5 CD Auto (max braked towing limit 1600kgs).

 

post-37348-0-66583000-1387718093_thumb.jpg

 

 

PERFECTLY LEGAL and everything that was loaded in and or on both was weighed & documented.

Then I took the caravan and had the lot weighed on a VOSA Dynamic Axle Weighbridge.

Life in general can be a journey of chance with some winners and sadly some losers. Your outfit can never be left to chance. A short-while carrying out essential checks can ensure a long-time of happy & safe caravanning for all concerned.
Ignorance can often be bliss but is certainly not an excuse and when continually disregarded they can be totally disastrous for oneself and the innocent parties.

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X-Trail AUTO's are well known for having a very, very low tow weight limit compared to manual versions. One has to assume that this is because Nissan engineers consider the automatic gearbox isn't robust enough to handle heavier weights. It would be perverse, even without the possible legal issues, to go against their advice and risk having to buy a new transmission in fairly short order.

I've got nothing to do on this hot afternoon

but to settle down and write you a line.

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The vehicle and towbar tested and type approved to maximum towing limit it would be illegal to exceed the limit and could also effect your car insurance.

 

As said it might better to look at a different tow car like a Kia Sportage or FL2.

 

I think your struggle to keep under 1350kg for your caravan.

 

Dave

Jeep Commander 3. 0 V6 CRD

Isuzu D- Max Utah Auto

Elddis Crusader Storm 2000 Kgs, Unipart Royal Atlas Mover .

 

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The vehicle and towbar tested and type approved to maximum towing limit it would be illegal to exceed the limit and could also effect your car insurance.

 

As said it might better to look at a different tow car like a Kia Sportage or FL2.

 

I think your struggle to keep under 1350kg for your caravan.

 

Dave

Don't wish to be picky but spent some time looking at the Highway Code and the C & U regulations (see my post above) and could find nothing to say that it is illegal as such. Could you quote the relevant legislation?

 

poolebob

Honda CRV Diesel Petrol & No caravan now. :angry:

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Exceeding any declared maximum weight limit is a offence.

 

Dave

Jeep Commander 3. 0 V6 CRD

Isuzu D- Max Utah Auto

Elddis Crusader Storm 2000 Kgs, Unipart Royal Atlas Mover .

 

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Cheers for all your help, i thought that would be the case!!

 

So it's gonna be a X-Trail manual or an auto Santa FE

 

Looking to spend around 10k

Hyundai Santa Fe 2. 2 Premium Auto 2010 - Sterling Eccles Moonstone 2005 - Kampa Ace Air 300 2016
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Yes forget the auto, you would be straining the autobox I would expect as the rest of the car is the same as the manual.

Also the auto only has a 75kg nose weight limit.

 

And buy as late as you can in the 171bhp version, as the early t31 has pdf lights coming up, my 2009 version never had a problem other than the interior mirror would vibrate.

Edited by xtrailman
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Possibly this: havnt fully read it but it might answer the question, if it doesnt then sorry!

 

D2652 / Construction and Use Regulations - breach over-riding weight restrictions
NARRATIVE Regulation 80 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 provides over-riding weight restrictions for vehicles.

Other documents regarding the weights of vehicles are -







Max authorised weights (new concept)

80(1) No person shall use, or cause or permit to be used, on a road a vehicle -

(a) fitted with a plate in accordance with
,
(plates for goods vehicle/buses)
but for which no plating certificate has been issued, if any of the weights shown on the plate is exceeded;

(
B)
for which a plating certificate has been issued, if any of the 'weights not to be exceeded in Great Britain' shown on the plating certificate is exceeded; OR

© required by
(plates - agricultural trailed appliances
) to be fitted with a plate, if the
referred to in
of that regulation is exceeded,

unless provided for by paragraph (2), (2A), (2B) and (4).

80(2) Where any two or more axles are fitted with a compensating arrangement in accordance with regulation 23(wheel loads) the sum of the weights shown for them in the plating certificate shall not be exceeded. In a case where a plating certificate has not been issued the sum of the weights referred to shall be that shown for the said axles in the plate fitted in accordance with regulation 66.

80(2A) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to a vehicle for which a plating certificate has been issued in the form set out in Schedule 10A or 10C where -

(a) the vehicle is being used for international transport; AND

(
B)
none of the 'EEC maximum permitted weights' shown on the plating certificate is exceeded.

80(2B) Where both a train weight and a maximum train weight are shown under 'weight not to be exceeded in Great Britain' on a plating certificate issued for a motor vehicle, paragraph (1)(B) in so far as it relates to train weights shall not apply to the motor vehicle if -

(a) the motor vehicle is a
drawing a wheeled
and the requirements set out in
of Schedule 11A are for the time being fulfilled; OR

(
B)
the motor vehicle is comprised in an
and the requirements set out in part III of Schedule 11A are for the time being fulfilled,

and the train weight of the motor vehicle does not exceed the maximum train weight shown as 'weight not to be exceeded in Great Britain' on the certificate.

80(3) Nothing in regulations 75 to 79 (see document list below) or the Road Vehicles (Authorised Weight) Regulations 1998 shall permit any such weight as is mentioned in the preceding provisions of this regulation to be exceeded and nothing in this regulation shall permit any weight prescribed by regulations 75 to 79 in relation to the vehicle in question to be exceeded.





80(4) Paragraph (1) above shall not apply where a vehicle is used on a road before 1st January 2000 if -

(a) the vehicle is fitted with a plate in accordance with regulation 66(1)(B) and the maximum gross weight and the maximum weight for any vehicle axle are not exceeded;
OR
(B) there is in force a plating certificate for the vehicle that was issued before 1st January 1999 and the design weight of the vehicle is not exceeded;
AND
© in either case the maximum authorised weight for the vehicle, the maximum authorised weight for a combination of which the vehicle forms part and maximum authorised weight for any axle of the vehicle determined in accordance with Road Vehicles (Authorised Weight) Regulations 1998, are not exceeded.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Anthony's detailed post above mentions nothing of towing weights.

 

If you have a B&E license you can only be prosecuted for actually (not theoretically) exceeding maximum authorised weights of:

 

-VEHICLE (Gross Vehicle Weight) and its individual gross axle weights

-TRAILER (MPTLM)

-COMBINATION (Gross Train Weight)

 

These are all plated figures which must not be exceeded with an actual weight.

 

Max Towing Weight of a vehicle is reflected in the GTW since GTW is usually the sum of GVW + its max towing weight. So, by towing something above the max towing weight, you can run the risk of exceeding GTW which would be illegal if weighed as such. Of course you could undeload either car or van to avoid this. Another factor to consider is that individual manufacturers (in their vehicle manuals) allow for variations on max towing weight. Some will allow you to add the coupling weight (nose weight) on to the max towing weight figure since the weight of a trailer reduces by the nose weight pressed on the tow bar once connected - it transfers to the vehicle. Other manufacturers allow an increase in towing weight if the vehicle is underloaded by a certain figure e. g. some Peugeots. All manufacturers reduce the towing weights in their manuals at higher altitudes which can affect people who want to tow in alpine regions. Everything I have looked at on this matter points to the max towing weight being a manufacturer advisory figure and not a legal figure. The risk of exceeding it lies in the potential to exceed GTW and also (potentially) having an "unsafe" combination but it would be very difficult to prove that in a court, especially without weigh bridge figures and other evidence that the combination was clearly unsafe (which would probably result in a breach of GTW anyway.)

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I suspect you may well be correct CFA and that a car makers towing limit might not be legally enforcable, only the axle and GTW.

 

Personally I wouldn't ignore such a limit just because it's not illegal. There ar e lots of things in life that have limits we keep to and don't need the threat of arrest to ensure that's the case. It's sensible to keep inside manufacturers limits because they don't just publish them for fun.

I've got nothing to do on this hot afternoon

but to settle down and write you a line.

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Towing limits are apart of the vehicles type approval.

 

Plated weights were used as there was no declaration of a towing limit by a manufacturer. Any declaration can be used as evidence and it could effect your insurance in the event of a accident.

 

 

Dave

Edited by CommanderDave

Jeep Commander 3. 0 V6 CRD

Isuzu D- Max Utah Auto

Elddis Crusader Storm 2000 Kgs, Unipart Royal Atlas Mover .

 

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I've got a Sterling Eccles Moonstone 2005,

 

On the the plate it says the Maximum Technical Permissible Laden Mass 1430 kgs[/size]

 

Now, im soon to be changing cars, the car in mind is a 2008 Nissan X-Trail 2 litre diesel AUTO[/size]

 

The max towing weight for an auto i've found is 1350 kgs (i think)[/size]

 

So, my question is, will i be braking the law towing the van with that car??[/size]

 

Also, if i was towing said van with said car, would it not handle very well??[/size]

 

Cheers!![/size]

The maximum towing weight refer to the engine capability to pull a trailer.

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The maximum towing weight refer to the engine capability to pull a trailer.

 

Not just the engine, it's the car's capability to tow a weight including the strength of the transmission, the strength of the suspension and possible the capacity of rear bodywork to stand the strains

I've got nothing to do on this hot afternoon

but to settle down and write you a line.

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I suppose its hard to tell if the trailer/caravan was overweight when it's strewn all over the road after an accident :(

2018 S-Max Titanium 2. 0 Tdci (177. 54bhp,180ps,132kw) Powershift + 2015 Unicorn III Cadz, Ventura Marlin porch awning

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Not just the engine, it's the car's capability to tow a weight including the strength of the transmission, the strength of the suspension and possible the capacity of rear bodywork to stand the strains

.

 

Won't argue. I only spend 18 year in Car manufacturing.

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I suppose its hard to tell if the trailer/caravan was overweight when it's strewn all over the road after an accident :(

 

It has been posted by membesr on other forums of police putting all the debris on a recovery truck and taking it to a weighbridge and found to be overweight and their insurance effected.

 

Dave

Jeep Commander 3. 0 V6 CRD

Isuzu D- Max Utah Auto

Elddis Crusader Storm 2000 Kgs, Unipart Royal Atlas Mover .

 

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I'm just fascinated by all these people who seem to know significantly more than the manufacturers and therefore feel it's fine to totally ignore any recommendations, advice or limits given by the manufacturer and then suggest that others, who might not be so clever, do the same.

Likewise pushing limits to the extent of the law and hoping than arguing the point will save them from any legal comeback - you can't beat a barrack room lawyer

Edited by matelodave

2018 S-Max Titanium 2. 0 Tdci (177. 54bhp,180ps,132kw) Powershift + 2015 Unicorn III Cadz, Ventura Marlin porch awning

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Quite a simple question really

Car has maximum towing cappacity of 1600Kgs

Caravan has MTPLM of 1630Kgs

Caravan has MIRO of 1370 Kgs

If caravan is loaded with 200Kgs Total weight of 1570Kgs

 

Is this weight 30Kgs overweight (as per weight plate) for car, or, 30Kgs under weight (actual weight).

 

Could Admin check this out with VOSA as it is a question that keeps reoccouring on the forum, without a definative answer

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The maximum towing weight refer to the engine capability to pull a trailer.

If that's the case then why do automatics and manuals with the same engine have different towing limits?

Poolebob

Honda CRV Diesel Petrol & No caravan now. :angry:

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