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Whatters55
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Hi, anyone know if a manufacturer will lower a MTPLM plate on a new caravan ? I have noted you can increase it slightly if requested but can it be lowered ?

Yes It means a lower user payload but it would bring me into the towing legally club . My plan was not to load upto the MTPLM but according to the law it matters not that you are carrying less weight, all that matters is what the plate on the van says + what the vin plate on the tow vehicle says for MTW .

So the law view is you have the potential to break the law not that you are not by being light ?

Luckily we are all different

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What's the "towing legally club" ? :unsure:.

 

The 85% one?

Edited by Pebble

2019 Adria Adora Thames

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Hi, anyone know if a manufacturer will lower a MTPLM plate on a new caravan ? I have noted you can increase it slightly if requested but can it be lowered ?

Yes It means a lower user payload but it would bring me into the towing legally club . My plan was not to load upto the MTPLM but according to the law it matters not that you are carrying less weight, all that matters is what the plate on the van says + what the vin plate on the tow vehicle says for MTW .

So the law view is you have the potential to break the law not that you are not by being light ?

 

Hi Whatters. Unless you are very new to caravanning and have only just gained your driving licence at the same or similar time that might bring in very new rulings I don't think your explanation is correct.

I think you will find that it is the Maximum Gross Train that is under scrutiny when/if stopped by VOSA and or a Traffic Officer that calls in VOSA.

Your axle weights,all of them are checked. Your vehicle gross weight and your caravan gross weight,NOT THE THEORETICAL one (MTPLM) are individually checked.

The actual combined weights of your vehicle and your caravan will then be your actual moving Gross Train.

Your noseweight is also under scrutiny and that is added to your rear axle-weight,so don't overlook it.

Life in general can be a journey of chance with some winners and sadly some losers. Your outfit can never be left to chance. A short-while carrying out essential checks can ensure a long-time of happy & safe caravanning for all concerned.
Ignorance can often be bliss but is certainly not an excuse and when continually disregarded they can be totally disastrous for oneself and the innocent parties.

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Hi, anyone know if a manufacturer will lower a MTPLM plate on a new caravan ? I have noted you can increase it slightly if requested but can it be lowered ?

Yes It means a lower user payload but it would bring me into the towing legally club . My plan was not to load upto the MTPLM but according to the law it matters not that you are carrying less weight, all that matters is what the plate on the van says + what the vin plate on the tow vehicle says for MTW .

So the law view is you have the potential to break the law not that you are not by being light ?

Why dont you take the B+E test then you wont have to worry about the 3. 5 ton limit

2022 Pilote P696GJ for European touring-  2022 Coachman VIP 565 for touring the UK towed by a 2022 Skoda kodiaq Sportline 4x4 dsg 200PS

 

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Hi Whatters. Unless you are very new to caravanning and have only just gained your driving licence at the same or similar time that might bring in very new rulings I don't think your explanation is correct.

I think you will find that it is the Maximum Gross Train that is under scrutiny when/if stopped by VOSA and or a Traffic Officer that calls in VOSA.

Your axle weights,all of them are checked. Your vehicle gross weight and your caravan gross weight,NOT THE THEORETICAL one (MTPLM) are individually checked.

The actual combined weights of your vehicle and your caravan will then be your actual moving Gross Train.

Your noseweight is also under scrutiny and that is added to your rear axle-weight,so don't overlook it.

 

Technical legality is obviously not Whatters' problem, but driving licence restrictions. He correctly states that MTPLM of the caravan is one of the criteria that's at stake. Actual weight is of no concern as far as the driving licence is concerned. Gross Train Weight is also purely a technical issue and has nothing to do with the licence.

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Rather than assume perhaps Whatters could say whether his concern relates to what his driving licence allows or the weight of the van in relation to that of the car or the max weight the car can tow. That way we can give the right answer

poolebob

Honda CRV Diesel Petrol & No caravan now. :angry:

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Hi Lutz. I am aware of that but was attempting to point out the criteria as far as VOSA are concerned.

I suspected that he was either very new to tugging and or he perhaps needed a greater entitlement.

He did not explain in an cut & dried/easy to digest fashion and like a great many believe that the MTPLM is what the outfit is judged upon and not the actual weight being hauled.

You may recall some couple of years ago,I was pulling an Elddis Crusader SuperSirocco that has an MTPLM of 1750kgs with a 1997 Volvo V70 T5 CD Auto,the car had a maximum braked towing limit of 1600kgs. I was perfectly legal and all weights were correct.

What I am not sure of is how the new rulings/laws affect new caravanner's,indeed whether it actually is the MTPLM that all is judge upon and not the actual hauled weight of the caravan or indeed the actual gross train.

Life in general can be a journey of chance with some winners and sadly some losers. Your outfit can never be left to chance. A short-while carrying out essential checks can ensure a long-time of happy & safe caravanning for all concerned.
Ignorance can often be bliss but is certainly not an excuse and when continually disregarded they can be totally disastrous for oneself and the innocent parties.

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Thanks for the replies, I feel I will be ok judging by the replies so far . No I have just passed my test, my car manufacturer says my vehicle has a max tow weight of 1600kgs, the new van will be plated at 1630kgs .

I have taken car to weighbridge today . Full tank +driver is 1900kgs, max load permissable is 2360kgs, I have no problem complying with the gross train weight

.

Luckily we are all different

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Thanks for the replies, I feel I will be ok judging by the replies so far . No I have just passed my test, my car manufacturer says my vehicle has a max tow weight of 1600kgs, the new van will be plated at 1630kgs .

I have taken car to weighbridge today . Full tank +driver is 1900kgs, max load permissable is 2360kgs, I have no problem complying with the gross train weight

.

If you have just passed your driving test you are limited to the sum of the plated gross weight of the tow car and the caravan. So if the gross weight of your car is 2360kg, then the maximum you can tow is 1140kg.

Replating your caravan to 1600kg wont help you.

You need to take the towing test to get B+E on your licence.

Brian

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Mis typed, I have not just passed my test . Passed it in 1971 so licence not an issue . It was the plated weight of van in relation to car tow limit

Luckily we are all different

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Mis typed, I have not just passed my test . Passed it in 1971 so licence not an issue . It was the plated weight of van in relation to car tow limit

In that case you should have B+E on your licence.

Most people have difficulty in keeping the weight within the MTPLM limit so reducing it by 30kg makes it more difficult. Do you have a mover fitted? This would take around 35kg of your payload if fitted.

 

It seems strange that the manual Sportage has a tow limit of 2000kg and the auto 1600kg.

Brian

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I think the OP's worry is

Max towing weight 1600Kgs

Caravan MTPLM 1630Kgs on plate

 

Now if he loads 40 Kgs light his maximum towing weight is 1590Kgs. IE. within the cars limit, Surely this should be OK.

I know the plate says he could load caravan up to 1630Kgs, with different tow car, So if it goes by what the plate says, as opposed to actual weight, then Surely we are all guilty of speeding as the car is capable of excess to the speed limits.

Lunar Zenith Citroen C5 2. 2 HDI Citroen Picasso 1. 6 HDI. , Vauxhall Vectra Design 150 bhp Soon to be, 2014 Sprite Major 4 sr. With ATC.
The Internet has had no effect on my life whatsoever. com

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It seems strange that the manual Sportage has a tow limit of 2000kg and the auto 1600kg.

Brian

 

I actually asked this very question, but of Hyundai, who were at the NEC last October, even at a show promoting the Santa Fe as a tow car, they had to look up the different towing weights, but the manual is rated at 2300kg and the auto is 2000kg and this is purely down to the strength of the automatic gearbox.

Land Rover Discovery and Conquerer 630

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Mis typed, I have not just passed my test . Passed it in 1971 so licence not an issue . It was the plated weight of van in relation to car tow limit

 

Hi Whatters. My reference earlier to my 1997 Volvo V70 T5 CD Auto and my SuperSirocco (post #7).

I established my exact weight of the empty caravan. this was carried out on a VOSA Dynamic Axle Weighbridge.

The caravan was actually heavier that the published MiRO but it gave me a starting figure,that was 1440kgs (Eddis said 1426kgs).

That the gave me a staring point and a finishing point that resulted in a potential 160 kgs maximum for absolutely everything in and on the caravan.

I did exactly the same with the car. I then kept two written inventories of everything that was loaded into/onto both,I still keep to that discipline.

I was actually towing at 97% with no issues at all. That said,tyre pressures and correct loading, along with the absolutely correct noseweight is essential.

Life in general can be a journey of chance with some winners and sadly some losers. Your outfit can never be left to chance. A short-while carrying out essential checks can ensure a long-time of happy & safe caravanning for all concerned.
Ignorance can often be bliss but is certainly not an excuse and when continually disregarded they can be totally disastrous for oneself and the innocent parties.

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This will probably throw a cat in amongst the pigeons, but I am open to correction. The way I understood it is…

The MTPLM figure is merely an arbitrary maximum weight provided by the caravan manufacturers for marketing purposes and the benefit of prospective purchasers.

In law an MTPLM plate on a caravan is not compulsory, if it weighs in at less than 3,500 Kg. If a vehicle is less than 3,500 Kg it does not require plating.

The actual real maximum weight of the caravan itself is governed by the capacity of the caravan’s axles and tyres. Generally a plate is attached to the axle tube stating the max permissible weight and the tyres have their maximum load capacity moulded into the side wall. :huh:

Twin Axle Fleetwood Heritage 640 EST - pulled by a dual fuel, (Petrol/LPG) BMW 528i Auto

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This will probably throw a cat in amongst the pigeons, but I am open to correction. The way I understood it is…

 

The MTPLM figure is merely an arbitrary maximum weight provided by the caravan manufacturers for marketing purposes and the benefit of prospective purchasers.

 

In law an MTPLM plate on a caravan is not compulsory, if it weighs in at less than 3,500 Kg. If a vehicle is less than 3,500 Kg it does not require plating.

 

The actual real maximum weight of the caravan itself is governed by the capacity of the caravan’s axles and tyres. Generally a plate is attached to the axle tube stating the max permissible weight and the tyres have their maximum load capacity moulded into the side wall. :huh:

 

The plated MTPLM is not entirely arbitrary. It is based upon the capacity of the axle and tyres.

For some vans eg mine, they are effectively the same figure. For some vans manufacturers set the MTPLM a bit lower for marketing purposes. Ie It allows some cars to tow a van which they otherwise could not. In these cases you can often get the MTPLM upgraded.

 

Quoting from PArkers "Since 1982 all trailers, including unbraked ones, must be clearly marked with their maximum gross weight in kilograms."

 

For the OP the issue is whether it is the actual weight of the van or the plated weight which must not exceed the towing capacity. According to the AA "The caravan's Maximum Technically Permitted Laden Mass (MTPLM) must not be greater than the towing car's Maximum Permissible Towing Mass (MPTW) defined by the car manufacturer." They don't give Chapter & Verse of the law so it may not be correct. If it is then the OP has to replate his van to be legal.

 

poolebob

Honda CRV Diesel Petrol & No caravan now. :angry:

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The plated MTPLM is not entirely arbitrary. It is based upon the capacity of the axle and tyres.

For some vans eg mine, they are effectively the same figure. For some vans manufacturers set the MTPLM a bit lower for marketing purposes. Ie It allows some cars to tow a van which they otherwise could not. In these cases you can often get the MTPLM upgraded.

 

Quoting from PArkers "Since 1982 all trailers, including unbraked ones, must be clearly marked with their maximum gross weight in kilograms."

 

For the OP the issue is whether it is the actual weight of the van or the plated weight which must not exceed the towing capacity. According to the AA "The caravan's Maximum Technically Permitted Laden Mass (MTPLM) must not be greater than the towing car's Maximum Permissible Towing Mass (MPTW) defined by the car manufacturer." They don't give Chapter & Verse of the law so it may not be correct. If it is then the OP has to replate his van to be legal.

 

poolebob

Yes that is the way I read it too . . It dosnt matter how little weight your pulling, only what the plate says .

I find that ridiculous, you could strip out your van interior and the way the AA are interpretting the law you would still be breaking it ??

Luckily we are all different

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It does sound daft, but sometimes the regulations do seem silly. Maybe it makes it easier for a VOSA man in that they don't have to go through the bother of actually weighing if the plate says the van is over limit.

 

Why not ask your dealer/Coachman for a new lower value weight plate and see what reaction you get?

I've got nothing to do on this hot afternoon

but to settle down and write you a line.

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Quoting from PArkers "Since 1982 all trailers, including unbraked ones, must be clearly marked with their maximum gross weight in kilograms."

 

 

 

There is nothing in C&U Regs that requires a braked trailer under 3500 kg MAM to have a weight plate but unbraked trailers do require plating.

 

requirement for plates http://www. legislation. gov. uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/66/made

 

Section 66.

 

Plates for goods vehicles and buses obviously excludes caravans

 

Section 71

Marking of weights on certain vehicles

 

(1) This regulation applies to a vehicle . ...........

 

(d) an unbraked wheeled trailer, other than one mentioned in regulation 16(3)((i), (iii), (iv) or (v) or © to (g).

 

(2) There shall be plainly marked in a conspicuous place on the outside of a vehicle to which this regulation applies, on its near side—

 

(a)if it is a vehicle falling in paragraph (1)(a), ( , or ©, its unladen weight; and

 

(b)if it is a vehicle falling in paragraph (1)(d), its maximum gross weight.

 

Edited by beejay
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That's what my intial post was asking, if it is possible to have the plate lowered by 30kgs . If yes, then I would be street legal and no insurance issues .

So looking at the regulation quoted above, as long as the gross train weight has not been reached, there shouldn't be a prob ?

Luckily we are all different

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Be careful. Car could be underweight and caravan overweight and you could still make Gross Train Weight.

Has no-one on this forum got info from VOSA.

Lunar Zenith Citroen C5 2. 2 HDI Citroen Picasso 1. 6 HDI. , Vauxhall Vectra Design 150 bhp Soon to be, 2014 Sprite Major 4 sr. With ATC.
The Internet has had no effect on my life whatsoever. com

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My original plan was to not load the van much above its Miro weight of 1475kgs, we are a couple so would not be using the dining table, removing this from its storage area would decrease Miro by approx 10kgs . ....so that takes it down to 1465kgs . Fitting of mover 30kgs, leisure battery 25kgs . Takes the Miro upto 1520kgs .

I have a 6kgs calor lite gas bottle which is already included in the factory Miro, so no increase there . So bit of bedding and that's it for van load . Certainly won't be anymore than 1550kgs on the road .

As I mentioned in first post that I had taken car to weighbbridge with full tank +driver =1900kgs, so that left me with a user payload of 360kgs for clothes, food, awning etc in car .

Manufacturers gross train weight is given as 3860kgs, so subtract gross payload from GTW leaves 1600

Kgs max tow weight . No prob as I will ensure that van is around 1550 Kgs .

If coachman will change the plate to 1600kgs from 1630kgs everything would be hunky dory .

Luckily we are all different

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There might be an issue if the van actually weighs more than Coachman say. There are several threads on CT where people have found the van weighs more than the specs say.

As far as loading is concerned if you PM me with an email address I'll happily forward my spreadsheet with both van and car showing all the weights and percentages. All you have to do is enter your own figures. You might find that with reminding it will surprise you. I always work on the basis of having a decent margin rather than scraping by to try and make do.

I've got nothing to do on this hot afternoon

but to settle down and write you a line.

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Just had response email from Coachman to say that the MPTLM cannot be lowered .

I did enquire as to the legality of what I proposed to do as described in preceding post by me . . They have not commented on that, probably due to it being a legality issue .

I am therefore no further on as to wether I am within the law or outside the law . Feel a little frustrated as it seems a pretty straightforward delema .

As one poster said surely its the actual weight your towing not what u can tow ?

Can't cancel van order would lose deposit, I think I will go suck it and see route .

Luckily we are all different

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Hi again Watters. It was me that made that statement.

If you refer back to my posts #3,#7#14 you will be able to put them into perspective with what I am posting here today.

Now if you have any doubts whatsoever, your safest route is a visit to your local Police Headquarters where there are Traffic Officers and perhaps you also need to consult with a VOSA Officer.

With respect,If you have a difficulty in explaining exactly what it is your are seeking to establish then sit down and write it out before you go,confrontation just might upset your 'Apple Cart'.

Start off by correctly establishing what the weight of you vehicle is,DO NOT RELY ON DOCUMENTATION.

Establish what the MiRO actually is for your caravan,I did,it was taken to a weighbridge before I bought it and it was over the published weight.

 

Let me put it to you another way.

I passed my driving test on 10th 1964,I have a Full Entitlement and that includes motorcycles.

My 1997 Volvo V70 T5 CD Auto (just sold) had a maximum braked towing limit of 1600kgs.

The car actually weighed 1639kgs as per the indicated used/kerbweight of :- 90% fuel,68kg driver (me) and 7kgs luggage.

The maximum on the towball was 75kgs.

The train weight was 2020kgs.

Maximum Gross Train was 3620kgs.

Max on front axle 1070kgs.

Max on rear axle 1010kgs. (that includes the 75kgs noseweight,it is not extra)

 

I regularly towed my Elddis Crusader SuperSirocco with that car,the SuperSirocco has an MTPLM of 1750kgs & an actual weighed and ticketed MiRO 1440kgs.

I was towing at 95% to 97% most of the time.

I was perfectly legal,simply because I had not exceeded any of the required by law maximum weights.

One small point,I have been towing for 46yrs+ to date.

 

 

 

My car was always heavier than the caravan because I kept an inventory of everything that was loaded into/onto each.

Indeed, the car was heavier at the point of beginning but would lighten because of the reducing fuel content,it was never an issue.

The caravan was never loaded beyond the 1600kgs limit of the car.

All other factors have to been considered;of course,towing height,tyre pressures,load placement/positioning etc. etc. etc.

Sadly it is often the things that are taken for granted that cause the problems.

 

post-37348-0-53174700-1387279773_thumb.jpg

 

 

The image shows the car and caravan coming over a hump in the tarmacadam surface. it road level/slightly nose down when on the move.

Edited by TheTravellingRooster

Life in general can be a journey of chance with some winners and sadly some losers. Your outfit can never be left to chance. A short-while carrying out essential checks can ensure a long-time of happy & safe caravanning for all concerned.
Ignorance can often be bliss but is certainly not an excuse and when continually disregarded they can be totally disastrous for oneself and the innocent parties.

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