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Heat A Room For 8P A Day

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On the spot 'star jumps' work for me. ... :)

The point of this discussion is how much heat is put into the room, not into the room occupier. ? :rolleyes:;)

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I heat my bungalow (15 rooms) for free at these temperatures . :) A 10. 5 kw log burner and one advantage of being rural fuel is all around .

 

I think the idea of using 60w bulb is a far safer idea than candles . Insurance companies have been known not to pay out if a fire is caused by burning candle .

 

 

Dave

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So the idea presented is more expensive and more dangerous and is been presented as an innovative good idea! Really?

 

 

Was it? I just thought it was an article about a bloke heating his room with flowerpots and tea lights to see if it would be warm.

On the spot 'star jumps' work for me. ... :)

 

Yep! That and an extra jumper. I am working in my home office at the moment ((8ft by 9ft) and am feeling chilly because I have been sitting down for too long. The heating is not on, and I will not put it on, because I am about to move about a bit (and fetch another layer if that doesn't do the trick).

Edited by alison01326

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There are new ceramic filled electric radiators on the market. They make claims of energy saving; using low power to heat the ceramic and capture the heat. How good I don't know!

 

We're trying to persuade my dad to replace his 30 year old storage heaters with them. We, being my electrician friend, and my husband. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has them if they are any good.

 

 

Pure snake oil. All electric heaters are 100% efficient, from the cheapest £9. 99 fan heater to the most expensive one you can find to buy. ...I can think of much better ways of wasting my money, or saving it for that matter too

 

Not quite. A 60W light bulb would be both cheaper and safer.

 

So based on my wanting my dad to get some, you'd definitely recommend he stick with his ageing storage heaters?

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A fan heater can not be 100% efficient if it is using energy powering the fan ?

 

 

 

Dave

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We're trying to persuade my dad to replace his 30 year old storage heaters with them. We, being my electrician friend, and my husband. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has them if they are any good.

 

 

So based on my wanting my dad to get some, you'd definitely recommend he stick with his ageing storage heaters?

 

If you do the maths, at realistic costs for the tea lights, then the heat is cheaper from electrical sources. A 60watt bulb is a good source of light and a small amount of heat, but not 100% efficient at providing heat, because some goes to producing light. A proper heater is very close to 100% efficient.

A fan heater can not be 100% efficient if it is using energy powering the fan ?

 

 

 

Dave

 

Quite true, the fan consumes around 15w, about 5w of which will be heat and assuming a 1Kw heater the fan would waste 1. 0% of the total energy just making the air move.

Edited by harry.m1byt

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Yep! That and an extra jumper. I am working in my home office at the moment ((8ft by 9ft) and am feeling chilly because I have been sitting down for too long. The heating is not on, and I will not put it on, because I am about to move about a bit (and fetch another layer if that doesn't do the trick).

 

We just leave the heating on 24/7 and modulate the temperature. If we go out for a few days we set it at 5C, 23C when we are in and up, then about 18C come bed time. It doesn't cost much, we are very well insulated now. Very different to what it was 35 years ago, very cold and draughty with natural ventilation in all of the wrong places.

 

Get it up to temperature now, turn the heating off and it will still be reasonably snug 24 hours later.

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Alison. I would look into the heaters I mentioned. Storage heaters used a similar method in capturing and retaining heat. The new ceramic heaters may be better,using better technology. Its not about the efficiency in producing a given amount of heat,its about the retention and slow dissipation of the heat. I would look into them,especially if your dad doesnt have gas on site. Have your electrician friend look at the power outputs of the new heaters and see what he thinks.

Its always worth a look at new products, some of which might be pure snake oil!

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Alison. I would look into the heaters I mentioned. Storage heaters used a similar method in capturing and retaining heat. The new ceramic heaters may be better,using better technology. Its not about the efficiency in producing a given amount of heat,its about the retention and slow dissipation of the heat. I would look into them,especially if your dad doesnt have gas on site. Have your electrician friend look at the power outputs of the new heaters and see what he thinks. Its always worth a look at new products, some of which might be pure snake oil!

 

The point of a storage heater was to store up as much heat as possible, or as much heat as you preset it to store, during the off peak hours when it was cheaper. Then to return it during the next day and evening. Trouble them was, many run out of heat too early and it was difficult to predict how much heat you might need the next day.

 

Some had a centralised heat store, then distributed warm air via blown ducts.

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Quite true, the fan consumes around 15w, about 5w of which will be heat and assuming a 1Kw heater the fan would waste 1. 0% of the total energy just making the air move.

 

 

. . and where does the energy in the moving air end up. .... exactly. . 100% efficient

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You could spend all day arguing black is white and vice versa with a topic like this.

Question: How many know-it-alls does it take to change a light bulb ?

Answers on a postcard to your local asylum please. :)

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. . and where does the energy in the moving air end up. .... exactly. . 100% efficient

 

Yep, quite right, it does ^_^

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The new ceramic heaters may be better,using better technology. Its not about the efficiency in producing a given amount of heat,its about the retention and slow dissipation of the heat.

 

I still don't see why you think that would be better than my £9. 99 fan heater. How will storing the heat and releasing it later be any different to my fan heater set on low with a thermostat to cut it in and out as required? What heats the room while you were storing it? Where does the heat released later actually originate from? A 600W Ceramic radiators seem to be £199 on ebay, fan heaters start at £4. So that's £196 it has to save. As we've already seen that it costs less than 8p a day to heat a room, so even is it used zero electricity that's 2450 days or almost 7 years to break even. ... How can that be better?

 

I'm sorry to be so hard on this one, but heating our houses should be so simple, but is never ceases to amaze me that people are still out selling snake oil to vulnerable people who could live quite warm and happy if it wasn't for the lies and misinformation peddled by the purveyors of such products

 

</ rant over >

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Alison. I would look into the heaters I mentioned. Storage heaters used a similar method in capturing and retaining heat. The new ceramic heaters may be better,using better technology. Its not about the efficiency in producing a given amount of heat,its about the retention and slow dissipation of the heat. I would look into them,especially if your dad doesnt have gas on site. Have your electrician friend look at the power outputs of the new heaters and see what he thinks. Its always worth a look at new products, some of which might be pure snake oil!

As a result of a HSSRS inspection my landlord recently installed, against my wishes, three panel heaters which have ceramic cores.

 

I was very sceptical at first as my living room is fitted with 4. 5KW gas fire heater which has served me well for many years and is much more economical to run than the standard electric equivalent. I am currently carrying out trials on heating the living room and initial results of using the 2KW electric heater only are quite promising. The electric heater comes up to temperature and switches off. The heat is then slowly dissipated into the room until the temperature drops when the cycle starts again. It will be some time before I can work out if it will cost me more in the long run to run the electric heaters only and I may eventually use a mixture of both the gas fire and electric heater for financial reasons.

 

My landlord has also installed fan heaters in the bathroom and kitchen which I only use for short durations each day. What I have found about the fan heaters is that when they are switched off the temperature of the room quickly drops as the denser cold air drops to floor level.

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I think you've missed the point.

The OP has demonstated a low-cost method of heating (low cost to make and low cost to operate).

Another post on here has suggested that some of the perceived risks could be mittigated by using 60W electricity bulbs as the heat source.

What was the cost of your elaborate and ornate installation?

Also, not everyone has a dedicated fireplace - nor the funds to create one. - Some don't even have gas on their premises!

I think it is a very good proposal (albeit with some minor inherent risks) - so instead of knocking it and bragging about my own system I say well done and thanks to the OP for sharing

 

 

Naturally you are entitled to your own opinion, but I believe it is you who has missed the point.

 

I was not knocking the OP for posting the topic. I was pointing out that natural gas is a very economic, effective and safe fuel to use for domestic heating and is a cheaper method of heating a room than Ikea tea lights.

 

As for using 60 watt light bulbs as a heat source to mitigate the risk of fire from a collection of open flame candles. Well that would be a very inefficient and expensive alternative, considering electricity in London at the day time rate is 230% more expensive than gas per Kilo watt hour.

 

Yes my installation was very expensive, but that is neither here nor there. It was only offered up as a comparative example of heating a room cheaply with natural gas.

A basic coal effect gas fire can be purchased for around £100 and a second hand one could be purchased a lot cheaper. If there is no existing chimney a balanced flue coal effect gas fire can still be installed and used. If a home has no gas supply then obviously heating with natural gas is not an option.

Edited by WindlePoones

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errrrm . .. what's the point of the flower pots? Surely the only reason for storing the heat in the pots would be if he wanted to continue to warm the room after he had extinguished the candles?

Mike

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errrrm . .. what's the point of the flower pots? Surely the only reason for storing the heat in the pots would be if he wanted to continue to warm the room after he had extinguished the candles?

Mike

Probably to temporarily store and slowly dissipate the heat in a similar fashion to the new ceramic cored electric heaters mentioned in my previous post. .

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I still don't see why you think that would be better than my £9. 99 fan heater. How will storing the heat and releasing it later be any different to my fan heater set on low with a thermostat to cut it in and out as required? What heats the room while you were storing it? Where does the heat released later actually originate from? A 600W Ceramic radiators seem to be £199 on ebay, fan heaters start at £4. So that's £196 it has to save. As we've already seen that it costs less than 8p a day to heat a room, so even is it used zero electricity that's 2450 days or almost 7 years to break even. ... How can that be better?

 

I'm sorry to be so hard on this one, but heating our houses should be so simple, but is never ceases to amaze me that people are still out selling snake oil to vulnerable people who could live quite warm and happy if it wasn't for the lies and misinformation peddled by the purveyors of such products

 

</ rant over >

 

The only reason to store electrical heat, is so as to use it at a later time such as in off peak storage heaters. Anything else is just wasteful of energy. You walk in the room turn the ceramic heater or oil filled radiator on, there is then a long delay whilst it heats up, then heats the room. You leave the room and turn it off and it continue for some time after to deliver its heat to the room. Whilst running they have so much temperature lag, as to not allow the stat to work with any accuracy.

 

A decent fan heater delivers heat instantly, will not over shoot its stat setting and will stop delivering heat the second you turn it off. If the need is to warm your body rather than the air in a space, radiant heaters work well.

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Also the oil filled, ceramic core, or even the flower pots will work mainly by convection. If the air in the room is still, then the warm air will end up near the ceiling and your feet will be cold. A fan heater will stir the air in the room so theoretically provide a more even temperature.

Mike

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As we've moved on from some bloke sticking night lights under flowerpots to the right and wrong of storage heaters v ceramic heaters v fan heaters v gas fires it just goes to show, once again, that the only thing any of us here really have in common is ownership of a caravan!!

 

We are always going to have to agree to differ.

 

All of the above comments are valid, but once other factors are taken into account eg room size, amount of insulation and draughtproofing in the area to be heated, BTU calculations, personal ability to withstand cold (or heat), affordability to the individual of electric or gas bills, availability of mains gas, LPG, oil or wood as an alternative to electric heating, and outside temperature ranges we can probably have a balanced and realistic discussion of "what's hot and what's not" (if you'll excuse the pun).

 

So, based on my own circumstances, and those alone, I shall continue to research the possibility of replacing my Dad's ancient storage heaters with modern ceramic heaters (he doesn't have mains gas, by the way) and I shall continue to have the central heating on at home between 6. 30am and 9am and again between sunset (about 5. 30pm) and 10pm. At night I shall sleep with my bedsocks on under a 13 tog duvet with the window open an inch, and during the day I shall put an extra jumper on and move around a bit if I feel cold. Incidentally, where we live, the Winter temperature rarely drops below 4 degrees C, even at night. Bit lower 12 miles away, inland, where my Dad lives but that's irrelevant ;)

Edited by alison01326

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So, based on my own circumstances, and those alone, I shall continue to research the possibility of replacing my Dad's ancient storage heaters with modern ceramic heaters (he doesn't have mains gas, by the way) and I shall continue to have the central heating on at home between 6. 30am and 9am and again between sunset (about 5. 30pm) and 10pm. At night I shall sleep with my bedsocks on under a 13 tog duvet with the window open an inch, and during the day I shall put an extra jumper on and move around a bit if I feel cold. Incidentally, where we live, the Winter temperature rarely drops below 4 degrees C, even at night. Bit lower 12 miles away, inland, where my Dad lives but that's irrelevant ;)

 

10Kw hour into a storage heater, equals 10Kw hour back out but spread over the day. 100% goes in and 100% comes back out, simple physics and nothing can improve upon that, except - The amount of stored heat can be increased maybe the size of the unit made smaller, or it might be better designed so as to hold its heat better and release it on demand better.

 

Older units were not so well insulated, so the would start discharging the heat almost immediately and were not so well controlled so far as monitoring the room temperature.

 

Any suggestions that they will save you money in electricty consumed should be taken with a large pinch of salt.

 

This is from the Telegraph and I agree entirely with their answer. ..

 

A LOAD OF HOT AIR

Q We are in our seventies and increasingly concerned about the running costs of our off-peak electric storage heaters in our two-bedroom bungalow. We appreciate that gas may be cheaper to run, but at our age we are trying to avoid the upheaval of installing a gas central heating system.

We have read of a new German-engineered electrical heating system with a clay core, which is easy to install and runs off 13 amp sockets, which they claim can save 30-40 per cent in the first year alone against the old storage heating system. What are your thoughts?

JA, Glasgow

A Clay-cored electric heaters are not a “new system”, and advertising used to market them is frequently misleading. All electrical resistance heaters cost exactly the same to run, because 100 per cent of the electrical power is converted into heat. Any claim that these radiators use 30- 40 per cent less electricity to heat a room cannot be true.

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Noted, but I can't help thinking that newer technology, whether it be new storage heaters or new ceramic heaters would be more efficient than old ones. In my Dad's case, we are less concerned with running costs and more concerned with efficiency.

 

As a further aside, I believe that his pre economy 7 "overnight storage heater meter" also needs updating. He has to stick with EDF as they are the company who took SWEB over, and SWEB are the only people who have the software bill him for that meter. Twice he has tried to change to other providers, and they haven't been able to deal with the second meter so he's had the upheaval of changing back to EDF again!!!

 

Also noted that claims that certain heaters cost less to run, but I have to wonder whether if they are working properly some require to be on for less time and therefore that will reflect in the electricity bill. I only suggest this because when I had a coin metre, I was putting in a lot more coins when I was using a fan heater than I was when I was using an oil filled radiator (same wattage).

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Also noted that claims that certain heaters cost less to run, but I have to wonder whether if they are working properly some require to be on for less time and therefore that will reflect in the electricity bill. I only suggest this because when I had a coin metre, I was putting in a lot more coins when I was using a fan heater than I was when I was using an oil filled radiator (same wattage).

 

1Kw hour of heat is the same no matter what type of heater it is, only the delivery varies. Likely the difference in cost will be due to drafts/ poor insulation and other variables, rather than efficiency - because we all know electric is 100% efficient.

Edited by harry.m1byt

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1Kw hour of heat is the same no matter what type of heater it is, only the delivery varies. Likely the difference in cost will be due to drafts/ poor insulation and other variables, rather than efficiency - because we all know electric is 100% efficient.

 

I don't disagree with that at all, but as I was heating the same room with firstly the fan heater, which was then replaced (at a friend's suggestion) by an oil fired radiator, my jam jar full of 50p pieces was emptying more slowly. It was a mystery then, and will remain so. The insulation was shocking in that flat - cling film applied by me with masking tape over rattly sash windows and, I'm sure, nothing in the roof and I was in the top flat :rolleyes:

 

It was Winter 1987, and as I recall it was quite cold. I had moved to Reading from Cornwall and was feeling the temperature difference. I definitely slept in my coat and hat one night, and wished I could afford to move into a hotel for a few nights!

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