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milkymarsh

What Do You Need When Vanning In France?

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Whether you pay tax or not is only up to the taxman in your country of permanent residence. How would any foreign authority even know whether you are liable for tax in your home country and whether you have paid? The vehicle may even be tax exempt.

Why should the Italian Finance Police slap anyone on the wrist? It's none of their business.

Edited by Lutz

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Whether you pay tax or not is only up to the taxman in your country of permanent residence. How would any foreign authority even know whether you are liable for tax in your home country and whether you have paid? The vehicle may even be tax exempt.

Why should the Italian Finance Police slap anyone on the wrist? It's none of their business.

 

 

It is surprising that you advocate such actions. However, it may be that you are out of touch with the current UK situation.

 

A tax disc is no longer displayed so only a search will reveal whether a vehicle is taxed or not.

 

Continuous road tax applies now in the UK so a vehicle must be taxed or SORNed.

 

A SORNed vehicle is declared as in the UK.

 

SORN is a statutory declaration and could be subject to criminal action if abused.

 

Ex-pats returning to the UK with a UK registered vehicle that hasn't been taxed for some time cannot retax it without having to explain why there has been no SORN during the untaxed period of time.

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It is surprising that you advocate such actions. However, it may be that you are out of touch with the current UK situation.

 

A tax disc is no longer displayed so only a search will reveal whether a vehicle is taxed or not.

 

Continuous road tax applies now in the UK so a vehicle must be taxed or SORNed.

 

A SORNed vehicle is declared as in the UK.

 

SORN is a statutory declaration and could be subject to criminal action if abused.

 

Ex-pats returning to the UK with a UK registered vehicle that hasn't been taxed for some time cannot retax it without having to explain why there has been no SORN during the untaxed period of time.

 

I'm not advocating anything. All I am saying is that a UK resident owner of a vehicle which is registered in the UK would be commiting an offence in the UK if the vehicle is not taxed, but foreign tax authorities have no jurisdiction over such a case. How would, for example, a French customs and excise officer know whether a foreign vehicle is tax liable anyway or whether it may be exempt?

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. ......foreign tax authorities have no jurisdiction over such a case. How would, for example, a French customs and excise officer know whether a foreign vehicle is tax liable anyway or whether it may be exempt?

 

 

 

Why should the Italian Finance Police slap anyone on the wrist? It's none of their business.

Why should the Italian Finance Police (Guardia di Finanza) slap anyone on the wrist? The answer to this I answered previously and that was that in order to drive on ANY European road, tax for doing so needs to be paid. Because we drive on their roads and they on ours etc etc it has been agreed that on the understanding that tax has been paid in the country in which the vehicle has been registered - and as a consequence on the road legally - then the need to pay tax in the other country is waivered. If the vehicle is not taxed in the country of registration it is being used on the roads illegally and therefore by simple logic it is also being driven illegally on any other countries roads. So that answers the second part also - because whether a vehicle is being driven on the roads is very much their business.

 

How would a foreign Police Officer or Excise Office know the tax status of any vehicle? Easy - via the Electronic Vehicle Register which is made available to them.

 

The word 'juristiction' doesn't come into it here. Foreign Police or Excise Officers are not holding juristiction over whether the vehicle is taxed in it's home registered country or not - that's a matter for the home country. But they DO have juristiction over whether or not a vehicle is legally driving on THEIR roads. It's been the case over the past few years with parking tickets with lots of people believing that they are not liable to pay a fine as a result of an offence having been committed abroard. This also is no longer the case and people will get chased up as a result of cooperation between authorities with of course an administration charge being added as a bonus.

Edited by AlanI

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Why should the Italian Finance Police (Guardia di Finanza) slap anyone on the wrist? The answer to this I answered previously and that was that in order to drive on ANY European road, tax for doing so needs to be paid. Because we drive on their roads and they on ours etc etc it has been agreed that on the understanding that tax has been paid in the country in which the vehicle has been registered - and as a consequence on the road legally - then the need to pay tax in the other country is waivered. If the vehicle is not taxed in the country of registration it is being used on the roads illegally and therefore by simple logic it is also being driven illegally on any other countries roads. So that answers the second part also - because whether a vehicle is being driven on the roads is very much their business.

 

How would a foreign Police Officer or Excise Office know the tax status of any vehicle? Easy - via the Electronic Vehicle Register which is made available to them.

 

The word 'juristiction' doesn't come into it here. Foreign Police or Excise Officers are not holding juristiction over whether the vehicle is taxed in it's home registered country or not - that's a matter for the home country. But they DO have juristiction over whether or not a vehicle is legally driving on THEIR roads. It's been the case over the past few years with parking tickets with lots of people believing that they are not liable to pay a fine as a result of an offence having been committed abroard. This also is no longer the case and people will get chased up as a result of cooperation between authorities with of course an administration charge being added as a bonus.

 

The Electronic Vehicle Register only records details of registration of the vehicle, not whether it is taxed or not. Only Revenue and Customs hold those details. Some vehicles are exempt from tax in their country of registration. By your argument they would then have to pay vehicle tax in the country they are visiting. There's no logic in that.

 

The same applies to income tax. Unless there are specific reciprocal agreements between respective governments for mutual notification of tax liability, it's none of anyone's business abroad to know whether I pay income tax in my country of residence. Why else were Swiss bank accounts so popular for so many years? Taxation is the sovereign responsibility of each government. There is no such thing as common EU tax law.

Edited by Lutz

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quote"It's been the case over the past few years with parking tickets with lots of people believing that they are not liable to pay a fine as a result of an offence having been committed abroard. This also is no longer the case and people will get chased up as a result of cooperation between authorities with of course an administration charge being added as a bonus"

 

It's not the cooperation of the authorities that enables foreign parking fines to be persued in the UK, it's private debt collecting agencies employed by foreign authorities who purchase the drivers details from the DVLA.

At the moment speeding fines imposed by other EU member states aren't enforceable in the UK but that will change in 2017.

knarf

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I'm not advocating anything. All I am saying is that a UK resident owner of a vehicle which is registered in the UK would be commiting an offence in the UK if the vehicle is not taxed, but foreign tax authorities have no jurisdiction over such a case. How would, for example, a French customs and excise officer know whether a foreign vehicle is tax liable anyway or whether it may be exempt?

You appear to be saying that, as there is no way of checking, using an untaxed UK vehicle in Europe is acceptable. This despite the fact that international agreements require vehicles to conform to the legislation of the home country. It is true that there are many ex-pats using UK registered vehicles in Spain and France with and without out UK tax and/or insurance.

 

However, the point is not whether foreign police have any interest in whether a UK vehicle abroad is taxed or not but the fact that it is extremely difficult now to take a UK vehicle abroad without tax or letting the tax expire abroad. SORN and continuous insurance killed that off!.

 

The Italian Guardia di Finanza are probably unique in Europe in that their specific purpose is to counter tax evasion. Any suspicion that a vehicle is being used in Italy in contravention of the requirement to re-register an imported vehicle could be investigated more thoroughly than elsewhere so perhaps the earlier post about such a stop and check was nearer the true situation than some believe?

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The registered keeper of a vehicle must either submit a SORN, or pay the tax.

Edited by Ern

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quote"It's been the case over the past few years with parking tickets with lots of people believing that they are not liable to pay a fine as a result of an offence having been committed abroard. This also is no longer the case and people will get chased up as a result of cooperation between authorities with of course an administration charge being added as a bonus"

 

It's not the cooperation of the authorities that enables foreign parking fines to be persued in the UK, it's private debt collecting agencies employed by foreign authorities who purchase the drivers details from the DVLA.

 

Foreign debt collection agencies have the same legal powers in the UK as a UK debt collection agency. ..none.

 

A court order is needed to effect legal recovery of outstanding debts

 

Only the principal, not their agent, can pursue a debt through the civil courts and it does not appear to have happened so far with any foreign organisation.

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As taxation is a sovereign issue, it is no other country's business whether I pay tax in my home country or not. In other words, tax evasion in the country of residence is not a punishable offence in the visiting host country. If you decalre a SORN, how are the powers-that-be going to know whether the car is still in the country or not? OK, this sort of thing may not be 100% legal back home, but it's not illegal abroad. I drove a car on the Continent on UK plates for over a year without it being taxed before re-registering it in Germany, but nobody cared. I wasn't permanently resident in Germany myself at the time as I was constantly in and out of the country. so the car couldn't be re-registered in Germany until I finally had a permanent address there.

However, the vehicle must still be technically legal at all times wherever it is in use.

 

So the advice to a first time Euro traveller is to consider SORning your vehicle for a two week summer jaunt rather than pay your VED ?

 

Wow

 

Have a good time MilkyMarsh you will wonder why you didn;t do it years ago - French caravanning is wonderful from the easy driving to the cheap wine and fresh bread and cheese, and such a varied country in landscape and people

Edited by sunshinetours

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Foreign debt collection agencies have the same legal powers in the UK as a UK debt collection agency. ..none.

 

A court order is needed to effect legal recovery of outstanding debts

 

Only the principal, not their agent, can pursue a debt through the civil courts and it does not appear to have happened so far with any foreign organisation.

The company used isn't foreign they are are a UK based agency

 

quote "Average fines are estimated at £25, meaning British drivers are hit with around £750,000 in penalty tickets every year.

They can even face court action in the UK or have their car put on a blacklist – meaning it would be impounded if they returned to the country where the ticket was issued."

 

It's the same as the PPC in the UK, many motorists upon receiving the parking charge pay up.

knarf

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You appear to be saying that, as there is no way of checking, using an untaxed UK vehicle in Europe is acceptable. This despite the fact that international agreements require vehicles to conform to the legislation of the home country. It is true that there are many ex-pats using UK registered vehicles in Spain and France with and without out UK tax and/or insurance.

 

However, the point is not whether foreign police have any interest in whether a UK vehicle abroad is taxed or not but the fact that it is extremely difficult now to take a UK vehicle abroad without tax or letting the tax expire abroad. SORN and continuous insurance killed that off!.

 

The Italian Guardia di Finanza are probably unique in Europe in that their specific purpose is to counter tax evasion. Any suspicion that a vehicle is being used in Italy in contravention of the requirement to re-register an imported vehicle could be investigated more thoroughly than elsewhere so perhaps the earlier post about such a stop and check was nearer the true situation than some believe?

 

The Italian Guardia di Finanza is by no means unique in Europe. Here in Germany one often sees official Customs and Excise vehicles (marked 'ZOLL') at autobahn service areas checking, among other things, whether foreign vehicles have been in the country for longer than they should without being re-registered in Germany.

 

 

 

So the advice to a first time Euro traveller is to consider SORning your vehicle for a two week summer jaunt rather than pay your VED ?

 

Wow

 

No, I wouldn't advise that at all because you're bound to encounter problems when re-entering the UK. All I am saying is that as long as you are abroad the authorties there have no right to show any interest in whether the vehicle is taxed in its home country or not.

 

I have seen cars with UK (and other European) plates in some far flung places around the world without a chance of ever returning home before tax expires and I am sure no-one is too concerned. When I took my car to the US, I was told that I could use it there for up to one year on UK plates, but of course I had to arrange local insurance and it had to be out of the country again before the year was up. The American insurance company only wanted to know the chassis number of the car and took no note of where it was registered. Obviously, it was no longer taxed in the UK and it never returned there after I left the States. I then brought the car back to Europe where I then re-registered it in Germany. I didn't encounter any problems despite the car not being taxed while I used it in America. Maybe I would have, had the car returned to the UK.

Edited by Lutz

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The Italian Guardia di Finanza is by no means unique in Europe. Here in Germany one often sees official Customs and Excise vehicles (marked 'ZOLL') at autobahn service areas checking, among other things, whether foreign vehicles have been in the country for longer than they should without being re-registered in Germany.

 

 

 

I'm well aware of that having lived here in Germany for umpteen years. As for the rest - quite interesting but during this discussion we've been referring to Europe and not America who of course do their own thing lol.

 

I'll bow out of this discussion at this stage and I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree in that for a vehicle to be used legally on the roads in Germany, France or indeed any other EU country it has to be currently taxed in the country in which it is registered. You cannot inform the authorities that the vehicle is off-road when in fact it still is.

Edited by AlanI

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We have just been offered a car for sale in France, which has not been taxed or Mot'D since 2003! The driver has apparently been using it, irregularly, on his visits to his holiday home - having it serviced by a friend - and he didn't consider that he was committing any offence, nor has he been stopped during any of his visits.

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I am not sure if it is the same in France we were stopped in Italy this year either for overtaking with a caravan, or speeding we are not sure which, We were asked for all our paper works also for

proof of ownership of the caravan, I had everything except the bill of sale for the caravan, who would have thought that you needed that, as it happened I gave him the Insurance papers for the car and caravan and it was OK,

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Whether or not it is of any interest to Police or authorities in other parts of Europe if a UK registered car driven over there is not taxed in the UK I neither know nor care.

Surely though, for UK Insurance to be valid, a car has to be taxed, and if it were driven in France, Germany or anywhere else in Europe without being taxed, any Insurance claim would be rejected.

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Whether or not it is of any interest to Police or authorities in other parts of Europe if a UK registered car driven over there is not taxed in the UK I neither know nor care.

Surely though, for UK Insurance to be valid, a car has to be taxed, and if it were driven in France, Germany or anywhere else in Europe without being taxed, any Insurance claim would be rejected.

 

If a UK insurance wouldn't cover you, you could always take out a foreign insurance on a UK registered car. Foreign insurance policies don't make any such restriction. Otherwise it would be impossible to insure a vehicle that is always used off public roads and which would therefore never be registered.

Edited by Lutz

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quote"Surely though, for UK Insurance to be valid, a car has to be taxed,"

Not so.

You can't tax a car without insurance but you can insure a car without tax.

It is legal to drive an untaxed vehicle to an MOT centre without Tax but it must be insured to do so.

knarf

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