Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
JCloughie

Alde Anti-Freeze Changing

Recommended Posts

Hi John we got a twin axle van so pump to help push through the fluid should help as can't tip the van too much. As said sub £50 is far better than the dealer quote of £230.

Hope it goes well as were off on holiday for Christmas, it's going to be cold if I cock it up 😚

 

 

I see that this topic has morphed since I started it and there are lots of variations. The important thing to me is that no one has found any problems, in fact it's an easy job.

 

I see some are favouring the use of a submersible pump. I had no problem without one just tipping the van and letting gravity do its stuff. Also using mains water to flush through worked well.

 

When I did my Bailey it had an in line pump. My Lunar has the header tank pump. Thinking about it I don't think it will make any difference to how I will do the job. In the Bailey I used the pump to assist draining. Clearly this will not be possible but as there is no in line pump to cause a restriction gravity will do the job fine.

 

John

Edited by Kevin H

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi John we got a twin axle van so pump to help push through the fluid should help as can't tip the van too much. As said sub £50 is far better than the dealer quote of £230.

Hope it goes well as were off on holiday for Christmas, it's going to be cold if I cock it up

Have a good time. As I suggested in the OP, a decent slope would be needed for a TA, or, as you say, a pump.

 

Seems to me that two different methods are either to force the flush out with the new fluid, (pump).

 

Or, drain completely, replace bung, and top up slowly with new fluid. Then bleed. A bit like a home system which is much more complex but it works, usually.

 

Not trying to suggest one may be better than the other.

 

 

John

Edited by JCloughie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll post when done

 

Kev

 

Have a good time. As I suggested in the OP, a decent slope would be needed for a TA, or, as you say, a pump.

 

Seems to me that two different methods are either to force the flush out with the new fluid, (pump).

 

Or, drain completely, replace bung, and top up slowly with new fluid. Then bleed. A bit like a home system which is much more complex but it works, usually.

 

Not trying to suggest one may be better than the other.

 

 

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll post when done

Kev

Mine due next spring.

 

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Choice of anti-freeze: No help at all on Bailey web site, Alde have conflicting information but recommend VW G12 or equivalent. Comma G30 comes up as the VW G12 equivalent, however, in another part of the Alde site it said to use 'Silicated', and the Comma web site say that G40 is Silicated. Hence some confusion.

 

You may think me pedantic, but Alde recommend G12++ or higher specification - G12 and G12+ aren't as high as Alde recommend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry if this is a daft question !

 

Is there an easy way to tell which antifreeze is in the system at present

without disturbing the system.

My caravan is a late 2012 Bailey Unicorn Cadiz 2.

 

Cheers

 

 

Tom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look at the colour of the fluid in the header tank - if it's blue it's probably 2-year but if it's red or lilac it's probably 5-year - I say probably because there's no standardisation on the dye colour used https://www. opieoils. co. uk/pdfs/tech-articles/coolant-antifreeze. pdf.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You may think me pedantic, but Alde recommend G12++ or higher specification - G12 and G12+ aren't as high as Alde recommend.

What I quoted is what Alde recommended in 2013 when this was written but they had conflicting information. Hope their advice has improved.

 

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The G12++ and G13 I think only bring greater tolerance to mixing with earlier products, not "better" corrosion, longevity and or antifreeze features. With the G13 bringing lower overall environmental impact.

 

As John so effectively flushed, mixing issue were not an issue.

 

I went for Comma's GG40 replacing their Extreme Long Life Red I had had in for 6 years. I did not do a flush at this last change though I did at the first change 6 years back. Measuring very carefully all my pipe run lengths and knowing other capacities I now suspect I could not drain close to a litre despite tipping each way and blowing the system through; I needed 8. 5 litres to refill.

If John similarly had a litre, of flush water in his case, hung up somewhere and his fill quantity was again similar he will have still a 45% concentration, arguably giving better performance than a 50/50 would offer.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I use a refractometer when testing fluid and not one system done "on the drive" had anything like the required strength this past season. All were around 10-15%. One guy took issue showing me a long calculation of pipes and capacities, volume of fluid removed and replaced and his was the worst. Check your SG you may well be unpleasantly surprised. BTW Lunars are a pain to get right despite using the Alde pump system. In the winter 2011 we changed four boilers at £1700 each due to poorly concentrated fluid freezing and bursting the boiler tank.

To get a full flush we might use around 30ltrs water then around 15ltrs fluid at 70% to get a good concentration by th e time its diluted with the remaining water.

Big things like a Concorde that have dual systems and double radiators throughout require a lot more.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like blown air heating isn't as stupid as some thought.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I use a refractometer when testing

fluid and not one system done "on the drive" had anything like the required strength this past season. All were around 10-15%. One guy took issue showing me a long calculation of pipes and capacities, volume of fluid removed and replaced and his was the worst. Check your SG you may well be unpleasantly surprised. BTW Lunars are a pain to get right despite using the Alde pump system. In the winter 2011 we changed four boilers at £1700 each due to poorly concentrated fluid freezing and bursting the boiler tank.

To get a full flush we might use around 30ltrs water then around 15ltrs fluid at 70% to get a good concentration by th e time its diluted with the remaining water.

Big things like a Concorde that have dual systems and double radiators throughout require a lot more.

Perhaps all the more reason to use my method, allow to drain after flushing, blow through with air pump, then top up slowly with new fluid at the required strength. Yes there may be a little bit of flush left in the boiler but negligible so just make the strength slightly greater to compensate.

 

Cheaper as well, no waste of anti freeze which many will allow to go into the drains instead of disposing properly.

 

I dont know what the advantage of forcing fluid through with a pump might be, no one does that with domestic central heating which is a far more complex system.

 

 

 

John

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps all the more reason to use my method, allow to drain after flushing, blow through with air pump, then top up slowly with new fluid at the required strength. Yes there may be a little bit of flush left in the boiler butnegligible so just make the strength slightly greater to compensate.

 

Cheaper as well, no waste of anti freeze which many will allow to go into the drains instead of disposing properly.

 

I dont know what the advantage of forcing fluid through with a pump might be, no one does that with domestic central heating which is a far more complex system.

 

 

 

John

It recharges and purges air locks out without the need to use the drain plug/valve and hunt out, gain access to and use all the bleeders; in some vans like mine 5 of them, four requiring dismantling some furniture. All designed to do but time consuming so simply removing the header and pump enough through is expedient and therefore a lower cost option. It inevitably wastes more product and this runs counter to the concept of G13 to reduce the environmental impact.

 

Despite assertions from others, I am confident my system is charged with very near 50/50 product [G13] even if about 5% might be 50/50 concentration of the older OAT 5 year stuff.

 

 

Even if I had only achieved half the concentration I put into the header [not remotely possible though], I am still protected down to -12 C; should Hampshire's ambient soak down at those temperatures then for sure I would have long before put the Alde on.

Edited by JTQ
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all, have collected the G13 antifreeze today and ordered the 700mm radiator to fit in the washroom of the Valencia.
Thanks to everyone for posting in this thread, I am hoping to replace my fluid soon. I intend to blow out as much as poss then fit the new rad, I like the idea of pumping pre mixed fluid in, as the total volume is unknown. To this end I guess a hydrometer is invaluable in any case.

After refilling and running, it would be easy to check the SG, i have found I have needed to top my system up, assuming some is lost from the header tank due to evaporation, (prob why the wardrobe door warps?) i thnk I am right in thinking that topping up with water does not alter the original SG?

Also what is the best water to use? there is no instruction with the G13.

Is it distilled or de ionised?

Edited by Styve100

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all, have collected the G13 antifreeze today and ordered the 700mm radiator to fit in the washroom of the Valencia.

Thanks to everyone for posting in this thread, I am hoping to replace my fluid soon. I intend to blow out as much as poss then fit the new rad, I like the idea of pumping pre mixed fluid in, as the total volume is unknown. To this end I guess a hydrometer is invaluable in any case.

After refilling and running, it would be easy to check the SG, i have found I have needed to top my system up, assuming some is lost from the header tank due to evaporation, (prob why the wardrobe door warps?) i thnk I am right in thinking that topping up with water does not alter the original SG?

Also what is the best water to use? there is no instruction with the G13.

Is it distilled or de ionised?

 

Topping up with water, dilutes the antifreeze concentration, and with that some impact on the SG.

 

We only use a 50/50 mix because making up is so convenient, one measure of each. Actually better thermal performance comes typically with 40/60 product to water. Antifreeze performance wise that 40% mix is good down to minus 37 C, and even a 30% mix is good for down to minus 14 C. Therefore it is not grab to panic if you topup with a litre or two of water. Unless you intend leaving the van in store in Scandinavian or the like. If I used water I would then top up with an equal amount of concentrate to keep somewhere near.

 

The water that you can use is that sold for batteries and car radiators, "deonised" water, though distilled does no harm but might be less available. It is best to avoid tap water, the more so in areas with any hardness; apart from throwing out calcium it "challenges" the anti corrosion properties of modern antifreezes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like blown air heating isn't as stupid as some thought.

i'd never choose wet heating if it was optional - the Truma Ultraheat blown-air system I had in my 2001 Pageant was much better - quicker to heat up and warmer in really cold weather - but, and it's a big but, my system was fully sorted with all underfloor runs well insulated and a well-positioned thermostat fitted.

 

I've never seen a UK-built caravan with the full air circulation recommended by Alde - but most users do seem to rave about it, I'm one of the few who has Alde but would readily "go back".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all, have collected the G13 antifreeze today and ordered the 700mm radiator to fit in the washroom of the Valencia.

Thanks to everyone for posting in this thread, I am hoping to replace my fluid soon. I intend to blow out as much as poss then fit the new rad, I like the idea of pumping pre mixed fluid in, as the total volume is unknown. To this end I guess a hydrometer is invaluable in any case.

After refilling and running, it would be easy to check the SG, i have found I have needed to top my system up, assuming some is lost from the header tank due to evaporation, (prob why the wardrobe door warps?) i thnk I am right in thinking that topping up with water does not alter the original SG?

Also what is the best water to use? there is no instruction with the G13.

Is it distilled or de ionised?

Hi Styve100

 

I'm confused by your post.

 

If you are installing a new rad it will be necessary to drain the system.

 

If you are draining the system then why bother with a pump?

 

Just slowly filling guarantees (after bleeding) a system full of the correct strength.

 

Filling slowly will help to reduce the chance of air locks.

 

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i'd never choose wet heating if it was optional - the Truma Ultraheat blown-air system I had in my 2001 Pageant was much better - quicker to heat up and warmer in really cold weather - but, and it's a big but, my system was fully sorted with all underfloor runs well insulated and a well-positioned thermostat fitted.

 

I've never seen a UK-built caravan with the full air circulation recommended by Alde - but most users do seem to rave about it, I'm one of the few who has Alde but would readily "go back".

 

 

I do agree that van manufacturers install systems based more on cost savings than Alde recommendations. I do prefer the Alde but it could be improved.

 

I find my Lunar's system to be almost identical to my previous Valencia, big difference is pump location. However, for reasons I cannot figure out, the Lunar is slower to react to the thermostat.

 

The Valencia kept a nice constant temperature. But the Lunar, after the thermostat switches off, keeps heating using the latent heat, until it is uncomfortably hot. A see-saw affect instead of constant.

 

In the hope that it will help I will fit the remote temperature sensor for next season even though I believe it is unnecessarily expensive for what it is.

 

Unless anybody else can suggest why this see-saw affect is happening.

 

 

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The proprietary formula in this waterless engine coolant, and with it not meeting any automotive industry spec (for example, VAG G12++), means we cannot recommend it per se. In short, we don't know what's in it, so can't guarantee how it will interact with the materials in the Alde system. The technology is promising though, and Alde conducts long term tests (a period of years) on an antifreeze before recommending it

I don't know about Millers waterless coolant but Evans waterless coolant is designed specifically to work with aluminium parts, is non toxic, does not allow oxygen or galvinic corrosion and will not allow localized hotspots in the boiler. There is no pitting which is caused by the prescense of water, and buildup of scale and sludge is impossible therefore the boiler should last indefinitely notwithstanding mechanical or electrical problems.

 

If I had my cynical head on I would say Alde would be in no rush to recommend a fluid which would reduce dealers servicing income and would mean fewer boilers sold to replace the leaking ones. I'm sure this isn't true though. (higher cost and dependence on one supplier might put you off)

 

Since the 1930's engine coolants have been based on a mixture of ethylene glycol, water and corrosion inhibitors. It is impossible for Evans fluid to meet current antifreeze specs because it is a different technology. Antifreeze is tested in a variety of ways, for example what ph, how much chloride and ash content (ash comes from inorganic inhibitors, trace chlorides typically from poor quality water used during manufacture.

 

Here's another example, there are many more:

 

ASTM D-1384 (Standard Test Method for Corrosion Test for Engine Coolants in Glassware) This test is a general test that distinguishes between coolants that are definitely lacking in their corrosion protection perspective than those that are worthy of further testing. In this test a coolant sample is diluted with corrosive water i. e water that has 100ppm of sulfate, chloride and bicarbonate ion added to it. The purpose of the dilution with corrosive water is to place the coolant under stress throughout the test. The sample is then placed in an experimental apparatus with metal coupons (each coupon being made of a metal that is found in a cooling system) and then boiled for 14 days. At the end of this time the corrosion that has occurred on the metal coupons is determined by the weight loss of each coupon.

Edited by limecc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The G12++ and G13 I think only bring greater tolerance to mixing with earlier products, not "better" corrosion, longevity and or antifreeze features. With the G13 bringing lower overall environmental impact.

 

As John so effectively flushed, mixing issue were not an issue.

 

I went for Comma's GG40 replacing their Extreme Long Life Red I had had in for 6 years. I did not do a flush at this last change though I did at the first change 6 years back. Measuring very carefully all my pipe run lengths and knowing other capacities I now suspect I could not drain close to a litre despite tipping each way and blowing the system through; I needed 8. 5 litres to refill.

If John similarly had a litre, of flush water in his case, hung up somewhere and his fill quantity was again similar he will have still a 45% concentration, arguably giving better performance than a 50/50 would offer.

If the total system volume is known, why worry about getting the last litre of flushing water out? Why bother to pre-mix at all? Add half the system capacity of neat antifreeze first, then top up with distilled water.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the total system volume is known, why worry about getting the last litre of flushing water out? Why bother to pre-mix at all? Add half the system capacity of neat antifreeze first, then top up with distilled water.

Seems logical but it's not difficult to empty the system, just drain then blow down both pipes. I use a cheap bellows pump.

 

I think calculating the capacity of the system is not that exact, some assumptions are made.

 

John

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you tell me what size hose you used to attach to the alde pipes. thanks

B&Q sell some garden hosepipe to tap connectors that have a little thumb screw to tighten them. Perfect!

 

http://www. diy. com/departments/hozelock-round-mixer-tap-connector/189587_BQ. prd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems logical but it's not difficult to empty the system, just drain then blow down both pipes. I use a cheap bellows pump.

I think calculating the capacity of the system is not that exact, some assumptions are made.

John

Lol I agree it's not hard with the right tools. I like your idea of the foot pump, we replaced the same model with a Sevylor stirrup pump which I will use next time. But I didn't think of it. I just huffed and puffed, went blue in the face and after a few minutes of lung pressure was able to blow it through. Not nice.

 

P. S. I didn't calculate my total capacity, I measured the amount of coolant I flushed out. The colour change pink to clear is sudden. Can double check by draining and blowing through.

Edited by limecc
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Styve100

 

I'm confused by your post.

 

If you are installing a new rad it will be necessary to drain the system.

 

If you are draining the system then why bother with a pump?

 

Just slowly filling guarantees (after bleeding) a system full of the correct strength.

 

Filling slowly will help to reduce the chance of air locks.

 

John

Hi John.

I will be drasining totally off. I was exploring all the info i read, I am not sure exactly how I am going to do it yet, I do want to flush it out and I will be draining to fit the rad, armed with all the info I have read, when I get the van home I will come up with the best method for me given I have all the gear and a method of tilting the van enough.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the total system volume is known, why worry about getting the last litre of flushing water out? Why bother to pre-mix at all? Add half the system capacity of neat antifreeze first, then top up with distilled water.

If you know the true capacities then that is a technique if any remaining fluid is indeed flush water.

I knew how much I got out, and this tallied with the amount to refill. However, a posting here by a professional suggested we were fooling ourselves that via draining we were getting all the fluid out, so post the event I did a comprehensive calculation.

That supported the assertion that I had getting on to a litre left somewhere, not free to drain or being blown through.

Where, knowing the pipe route is a design that should drain freely if tipped each way, really does baffle me however

 

In my case though it was not flush water but remnants of the previous charge, itself a high spec longlife fluid and compatible with the GG40 [meeting VW G13] used this time.

 

I am not left concerned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...