R0G Posted September 29, 2013 Author Share Posted September 29, 2013 train and combination do mean the same because they both refer to the same thing with that being the vehicle and something else which is usually a trailer of some sort - I have seen both used when seraching the specs of different vehicles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KNARF Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 I'm sorry but if you google "gross train weight or gross combination weight" you will fine most sites say they are the same! The bit I posted was from a Gov website but nearly all the sites say they are the same. It has been categorically stated by LUTZ that they definately aren't the same whereas all the sites I have seen state that they mean the same thing. I am not disputing what should be on the plate merely pointing out that Government departments state they have the same meaning. I prefer to believe what is stated by trade members and government sites. knarf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Lord Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 train and combination do mean the same because they both refer to the same thing with that being the vehicle and something else which is usually a trailer of some sort - I have seen both used when seraching the specs of different vehicles Licensing regulations talk about a combination of any such vehicle with a trailer, and Construction and use regulations talk about train saying it is a motor vehicle together with any trailer. In practice the two are interchangeable as following the definitions through the regulations leads to the same place. Bill Growing old is compulsory, growing up is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Lord Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 I'm sorry but if you google "gross train weight or gross combination weight" you will fine most sites say they are the same! The bit I posted was from a Gov website but nearly all the sites say they are the same. It has been categorically stated by LUTZ that they definately aren't the same whereas all the sites I have seen state that they mean the same thing. I am not disputing what should be on the plate merely pointing out that Government departments state they have the same meaning. I prefer to believe what is stated by trade members and government sites. knarf You are correct in descibing them as the same. But please despite what some government web sites seem to say there is a difference between gross train weight and maximum gross train weight. The first is an actual figure found by measurement, the second is the figure plated on the vehicle. Please look at construction and use act 1986 which is the definitive document that describes the plates. All other government department documents are somebodies interpretation of it. It does not copy well as the columns become separated but here you are 1 2 3 4 Item in Annex to Directive Class of vehicle Maximum permitted weight Maximum weight 2. 1. 4 (Laden weight of vehicle) (i) Motor vehicles The maximum gross weight in Great Britain referred to in item 10 in Part I of Schedule 8. The maximum gross weight referred to in item 7 in Part 1 of schedule 8 2. 1. 5 (Train weight of motor vehicle) Motor vehicles constructed to draw a trailer The lower of— (a) the maximum train weight referred to in item 8 in Part I of Schedule 8; and ( the maximum laden weight specified, in the case of vehicles constructed to form part of an articulated vehicle, in regulation 77, and, in other cases, in regulation 76. The maximum train weight referred to in item 8 in Part I of Schedule 8. 2. 1. 6 (Axle weight of vehicle) (i) Motor vehicles The maximum weight in Great Britain for each axle referred to in item 9 in Part I of Schedule 8 . The maximum weight for each axle referred to in item 6 in Part I of Schedule 8 . (ii) Trailers The maximum weight in Great Britain for each axle referred to in item 7 in Part II of Schedule 8. The maximum weight for each axle referred to in item 4 in Part II of Schedule 8. Bill Growing old is compulsory, growing up is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KNARF Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 I appreciate what you say but I never referred to the maximum gross train weight, I was correcting the statement that LUTZ made, "Gross combination weight is therefore NOT the same as gross train weight. which is incorrect. knarf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiaboy Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 This topic is doing my head in now 2013(13) Sorento KX2 2. 2 Diesel Manual, (With smelling clutch) Glittering Metal (Metallic Grey) dragging a 2020 Coachman VIP 520 with a Powrtouch Evolution Motor Mover (Towing @ 80. 0%) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 (edited) I'm sorry, but there is a disconnect somewhere. For Category B driving licence purposes, it is quite clear that the sum of the maximum allowable weight of the car and the maximum allowable weight of the trailer must not exceed 3500kg. This, the law calls the maximum allowable weight of the combination. However, it is equally clear that the train weight of a combination consisting of a towing vehicle and a trailer is the sum of all its axle loads. The limits of these values are specified by the vehicle manufacturer and are quoted on the plate as follows: 1. Max. allowable GVW 2. Max. allowable train weight 3. Max. allowable front axle load 4. Max. allowable rear axle load Now, the max train weight is the maximum value of the sum that all axle loads may add up to. Max. GVW is the maximum value that the sum of the towing vehicle's front and rear axle loads may add up to. Subtract one from the other and you're left with the axle load of the trailer, not its overall weight. This agrees with the concept of 'towable mass' that the regulations refer to and which is defined as the weight of the trailer less the vertical load on the coupling point. The latter is what we normally call the noseweight. Therefore, gross train weight can never be the same as the weight of the combination refered to in driving licence law. Otherwise, we would have one term in law with two different meanings, depending on whether driver's licences or vehicle construction and use regulations are being referred to. That would clearly be unacceptable. Edited September 29, 2013 by Lutz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KNARF Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 (edited) So any references to gross train weight and gross combination weight being the same are wrong according to you! It reminds me of a mother watching her son's passing out parade when she proudly exclaimed" look our son is the only one in step! Knarf Edited September 29, 2013 by KNARF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 (edited) So any references to gross train weight and gross combination weight being the same are wrong according to you! It reminds me of a mother watching her son's passing out parade when she proudly exclaimed" look our son is the only one in step! Knarf Please explain then how you can reconcile references to weight in driving licence restrictions with those used in vehicle construction and use regulations. Galileo also had the whole world against him when he first tried to explain that the world was round and not flat. Edited September 29, 2013 by Lutz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Lord Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 I'm sorry, but there is a disconnect somewhere. For Category B driving licence purposes, it is quite clear that the sum of the maximum allowable weight of the car and the maximum allowable weight of the trailer must not exceed 3500kg. This, the law calls the maximum allowable weight of the combination. However, it is equally clear that the train weight of a combination consisting of a towing vehicle and a trailer is the sum of all its axle loads. The limits of these values are specified by the vehicle manufacturer and are quoted on the plate as follows: 1. Max. allowable GVW 2. Max. allowable train weight 3. Max. allowable front axle load 4. Max. allowable rear axle load Now, the max train weight is the maximum value of the sum that all axle loads may add up to. Max. GVW is the maximum value that the sum of the towing vehicle's front and rear axle loads may add up to. Subtract one from the other and you're left with the axle load of the trailer, not its overall weight. This agrees with the concept of 'towable mass' that the regulations refer to and which is defined as the weight of the trailer less the vertical load on the coupling point. The latter is what we normally call the noseweight. Therefore, gross train weight can never be the same as the weight of the combination refered to in driving licence law. Otherwise, we would have one term in law with two different meanings, depending on whether driver's licences or vehicle construction and use regulations are being referred to. That would clearly be unacceptable. How do we get through to you that the gross train weight can be one of three things, it can be the weight of the whole unit standing on one weighbridge, or it can be found by moving the unit across a smaller weighbridge and checking the weight of each axle and then adding them together, or it can be found by weighing the car and then weighing the caravan and then adding the two results together. Whichever way it is done the result is the same. Because of this the weight of the combination is exactly the same as gross train weight just two ways of expressing the same thing. I understand your stress that the noseweight of the trailer is carried by the car and that this has an impact upon the gross weight of the car. I also understand quite clearly that a driver must allow for this noseweight when deciding whether the car has exceeded its maximum gross weight, but this has no impact whatsoever on the gross train weight. A properly licensed driver who makes sure that he does not exceed the cars plated max gross weight ( which he can only do if he is aware that he must include the caravans noseweight in his cars payload), and who makes sure that he does not exceed the caravans maximum permitted mass will always be legal. It does not matter if the unit is weighed as a combination or as individual vehicles the result will be the same. Can we again ask which regulations refer to the towable mass please. As I said before if they exist I would like to add them to my store of data. Bill Growing old is compulsory, growing up is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Marron Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 Please explain then how you can reconcile references to weight in driving licence restrictions with those used in vehicle construction and use regulations. Galileo also had the whole world against him when he first tried to explain that the world was round and not flat. Yes, but your no Galileo. 1 Has the revolution finally begun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Lord Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 Please explain then how you can reconcile references to weight in driving licence restrictions with those used in vehicle construction and use regulations. Galileo also had the whole world against him when he first tried to explain that the world was round and not flat. That is simple, there is no need to, the two are mutually exclusive. A driver must first of all determine that he is licensed to drive the vehicle he wishes to drive. With a b licence he checks the plates on the car and the plates on the caravan and if the sum is less than 3500 then he fulfils that condition. Next he must fulfil the requirements of construction and use regulations so he ensures that the weight of his car including the noseweight of the caravan is less than plated max gross weight, he then ensures that he does not exceed the maximum permitted mass of the caravan. Having done that he hooks up and drives away and is always legal. This is the way the law works, and in court breaking one or the other would result one of two different charges. In logic terms he must fulfil condition A AND he must fulfil condition B failing either condition means that the proposition fails Bill Growing old is compulsory, growing up is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Lord Posted September 29, 2013 Share Posted September 29, 2013 (edited) Can I ask a question. Would it be true to say that what you wish to put forward is the idea that a person can not tow a combination of car and caravan that has a gross train weight ( the actual mass of the combination found by weighing it) which is equal to the MAXIMUM allowable mass of the combination? This is a statement which must be true if the caravan has any noseweight. If this is the case then a little care with use of the words gross and maximum would have prevented all this rancour. However, this is not the same as saying that the gross combination weight ( the sum of the actual weight of the individual constituents of the combination) is not the same as the gross train weight ( the actual mass of the whole unit measured as one ). However you go about it these two things are identical. Edited September 29, 2013 by Bill Lord Bill Growing old is compulsory, growing up is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 (edited) That is simple, there is no need to, the two are mutually exclusive. A driver must first of all determine that he is licensed to drive the vehicle he wishes to drive. With a b licence he checks the plates on the car and the plates on the caravan and if the sum is less than 3500 then he fulfils that condition. Next he must fulfil the requirements of construction and use regulations so he ensures that the weight of his car including the noseweight of the caravan is less than plated max gross weight, he then ensures that he does not exceed the maximum permitted mass of the caravan. Having done that he hooks up and drives away and is always legal. This is the way the law works, and in court breaking one or the other would result one of two different charges. In logic terms he must fulfil condition A AND he must fulfil condition B failing either condition means that the proposition fails How can the driver ensure that his car does not exceed the maximum allowable gross vehicle weight including the noseweight (or for that matter, its maximum allowable front and rear axle loads) when the caravan is not attached? The car, standing solo on the weighbridge, must weigh less than its max. gross vehicle weight by the amount of the noseweight to be added later in order for the above condition to be fulfilled. Consequently, you would not be measuring the gross vehicle weight of the car after it has been hitched but a lower actual weight. Obviously, you can add the maximum allowable weight of the trailer to this figure to calculate the train weight, but it won't be the max. gross vehicle weight. So far so good, but you can't add the maximum allowable weight of the towing vehicle and the maximum alllowable weight of the trailer and say that is its gross train weight. The maximum allowable gross vehicle weight includes the noseweight and so does the total weight of the trailer, so you would be counting the noseweight twice. Edited September 30, 2013 by Lutz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R0G Posted September 30, 2013 Author Share Posted September 30, 2013 Axle weight limits have absolutely nothing to do with licence laws - when you get that into your head then all will become clear Axle weight limits which always add up to more than the GVW do so to allow flexibility when loading Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 (edited) Axle weight limits have absolutely nothing to do with licence laws - when you get that into your head then all will become clear I never said they did. In fact, I was trying to point out that gross train weight, whether actual or maximum allowable, has nothing to do with driving licence law, either. Edited September 30, 2013 by Lutz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R0G Posted September 30, 2013 Author Share Posted September 30, 2013 To demonstrate what I mean I never said they did. Then why go on about them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Then why go on about them? Because Bill Lord goes on about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_B Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Yes, but your no Galileo. I'm no Judge Judy but my moneys on Bill, Rog & the DVLA Paul B . .......Mondeo Estate & Elddis Avanté 505 (Tobago) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gellyneck Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Guys, can you not agree to disagree? Life is way too short. Seem to remember this is not the first time round the block on this one either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Recon the topic should be closed now, just going around in circles. Living the dream, well more of a nightmare if the truth be known ~ Griff Wheels at the front ~ Discovery 4 Towing Machine Wheels at the back ~ 4 of ‘em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gellyneck Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Recon the topic should be closed now, just going around in circles. More like a spiral vanishing up . ..................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rita Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Recon the topic should be closed now, just going around in circles. Awwww Griff you know how some like to always be right and get there voice heard above all others But agree it needs LOCKING Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gellyneck Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 And they're not even women!!! (Oh, I'm gonna regret that one!) :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 And they're not even women!!! How can we be really sure though Gellyneck? Living the dream, well more of a nightmare if the truth be known ~ Griff Wheels at the front ~ Discovery 4 Towing Machine Wheels at the back ~ 4 of ‘em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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