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Automatic As Good As Manual


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Did anyone say they were?

 

Most people who reply to these threads are auto converts but I find when talking to manual drivers many only have experience of the old three and four speed torque converter boxes that killed performance and economy. People with experiences like the poster who had only been in an old Astra auto until recently have no idea how good modern auto's are.

 

My Dad recently purchased a Fabia 1. 2TSi DSG. Skoda offered the DSG for £700 but this came with ESP and hill start assist which was a £450 option on the manual. So DSG for £250 extra? Makes the £1300 I paid a bit painfull but worth it anyway. My Mum had only ever driven a Senator 2. 5 Auto before and she hated it, she fell out with my Dad for ordering an auto and said she'd never drive it. Now she's a DSG convert and wouldn't go back to manual.

 

 

Cheers

Lee

Edited by logiclee

Yeti 2.0TDi DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Citigo ASG, Swift Challenger.

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Let's kill a myth: Modern autoboxes are not as uneconomical as some people will have you believe. My A6 2. 5 diesel auto Quattro Avant averages only 3/4mpg less than the manual version. Towing our T/A Crusader to Cornwall and back I averaged 29+mpg which is more than a Mondeo or Vectra with a manual gearbox pulling the same 'van.

Previous posters have mentioned how relaxing it is towing with an autobox particularly in heavy traffic or when reversing your caravan. Another advantage IMO is the 'kickdown' facility which I've used to get past a heavy truck travelling at 55mph up a hill,believe me it is easier than manually downchanging . You mentioned servicing costs; normal servicing is the same but if you meant does an autobox cost more to replace? Yes it does but I've always changed the gearbox fluid and filter every 50k in spite of what manufacturers like to call 'sealed for life' 'boxes. The gearbox contains moving parts so ask yourself if you would leave your engine oil unchanged for 100k?

I would suggest you test drive a vehicle with an autobox in mixed traffic and draw your own conclusions. Not that I'm biased. ...........................

 

Regards.

Col

 

I was only checking some MPG figures on a New car a few weeks ago and was suprised to see the Auto gave a better return than the manual . The Auto was 8 speed box and the manual was 6 speed .

 

A automatic with a dual clutch changes gear in less than half a second and so there is no loss of acceleration over a manual change .

 

Dave

Edited by CommanderDave

Jeep Commander 3. 0 V6 CRD

Isuzu D- Max Utah Auto

Elddis Crusader Storm 2000 Kgs, Unipart Royal Atlas Mover .

 

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If I was driving a performance car I would prefer a manual box. But with a family car or 4x4 tug there's no point to a manual box when you can have a relaxed auto drive. ...particularly when driving in Europe with its extra distractions.

 

No point?

 

Lower VED, lower fuel consumption, sometimes high nose weight limits, larger towing limits.

 

Lower purchase price. Lower kerb weight.

 

I have to ask in these times of recession, what is the point of a vehicle which adds extra cost?

Edited by xtrailman
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I was only checking some MPG figures on a New car a few weeks ago and was suprised to see the Auto gave a better return than the manual . The Auto was 8 speed box and the manual was 6 speed .

 

A automatic with a dual clutch changes gear in less than half a second and so there is no loss of acceleration over a manual change .

 

Dave

 

I was impressed with the 8 speed X3, and started a post about it some time back.

 

The co2 emission's are actually lower for the auto over the manual, and the fuel figure combined is the same.

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Another thread where no-one will agree with the "other side". Thats the whole point of manufacturers making products to suit everybodies different tastes from cars to caravans to biscuits. ... :P

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Another thread where no-one will agree with the "other side". Thats the whole point of manufacturers making products to suit everybodies different tastes from cars to caravans to biscuits. ... :P

 

I'm open to buying a auto, now I'm old.

 

But i require a incentive, other than " a more relaxing tow".

 

I considered a Auto X3, but owners have reported only low 40's, not the promised 50mpg.

 

Also looking at the Mazda CX-5 173 Auto, as it has the highest kerb weight of the range 1620kg.

 

But I'm put off by the six speed box giving a lot less mpg than the manual, something like 7mpg if i recall correctly, along with it being in higher VED group.

 

So whats the point.

 

1/ its dearer to buy.

2/ More VED to pay.

3/ Less mpg

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.

An Astra automatic !!!!!!!

 

Keep on running.

 

Good choice the Insignia, enjoy.

 

 

Gra.

 

Thanks will do yep he's on his 3rd now a 54 plate from new and settled with it for ever now at 86 yrs old, must admit it shifts but you certainly know when it changes gear.

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I'm open to buying a auto, now I'm old.

 

But i require a incentive, other than " a more relaxing tow".

 

I considered a Auto X3, but owners have reported only low 40's, not the promised 50mpg.

 

Also looking at the Mazda CX-5 173 Auto, as it has the highest kerb weight of the range 1620kg.

 

But I'm put off by the six speed box giving a lot less mpg than the manual, something like 7mpg if i recall correctly, along with it being in higher VED group.

 

So whats the point.

 

1/ its dearer to buy.

2/ More VED to pay.

3/ Less mpg

 

Mazda are still using old school conventional Torque Convertor auto's from Aisin. They are planned to have dual clutch boxes soon which should see the auto versions at least matching the manuals figures.

 

It's been said before there are many different flavours of automatic gearbox, conventional torque convertor boxes, Dual Clutch boxes, automated manuals, CVT's of differing types, and automated sequentials.

 

When buying an auto you need to look at what technology is fitted.

 

Cheers

Lee

Yeti 2.0TDi DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Citigo ASG, Swift Challenger.

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I can only speak about older vehicles. I have had Many manuals and a number of Autos - my present ancient Pajero is a good tow vehicle.

The real cost saving on an Automatic tug comes when you consider the cost of replacing a clutch on a Manual Tug. My Paj wants no more than an ATF change (some say every 80,000Km others say annually)

I do not know my Pajeros history from new until import into the UK in 2003. From 2003 until 2011 it was used to haul a two horse, Horse-Box. Since then I have used it to tow a small Freedom Sunseeker (overloaded by the OH :) ). for over a 1600 Km last year and so far this year 200Km hauling the Coachman. All with no gearbox problems.

My car before last the clutch expired 1 week after a 1200 mile trip towing our Esteril folder. :angry:

 

Extra fuel consumption against no burnt out clutches and peace of mind :)

1993 Mitsubishi Pajero 2. 8TD SWB and 1990 Coachman VIP 460/2

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The S-Max/Galaxy 163 Auto is fitted with Fords Powershift Auto which is a wet clutch dual clutch design similar too VW's 6 speed DSG. Although on paper performace and economy is very slightly down on the manuals remember that the manuals figures were achieved with an experienced test driver, driving specifically to achieve those results and with no mechanical symphathy.

In reality economy in my experience is better than the manuals due to the box choosing the correct change up point more often and performance off the line is definately much quicker with a twin clutch gearbox as gear changes are virtually instant.

 

This is a 6 speed wet clutch DSG v's a racing driver.

 

http://www. youtube. com/watch?v=X4HpD5K6Qws

 

 

5th gears thoughts on dual clutch boxes.

http://www. youtube. com/watch?v=5EdjEE0edPw

 

 

Still think Auto's are slow? Try a Dual Clutch Auto

Cheers

Lee

Hi Lee,

I agree with your views though I would add that the Ford box is damn slow to change down in Sport mode, changing up is seemless and quick but down changing is not good,

Regards,

Ian.

Bailey Unicorn Vigo and a 2017 Ford S Max and a Mercedes SLK AMG Sport 9 speed, my mid life crisis solver.

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Mazda are still using old school conventional Torque Convertor auto's from Aisin. They are planned to have dual clutch boxes soon which should see the auto versions at least matching the manuals figures.

 

It's been said before there are many different flavours of automatic gearbox, conventional torque convertor boxes, Dual Clutch boxes, automated manuals, CVT's of differing types, and automated sequentials.

 

When buying an auto you need to look at what technology is fitted.

 

Cheers

Lee

 

Yes from what I'm learning owners of the torque converter types prefer them to the DSG.

 

While the DSG i'm told still has a DMF, and two clutches to go wrong so its difficult to see any advantage over manual.

The dry type is said to be inferior to the latest unproven? wet DSG.

 

To what i can gather Mazda are claiming the auto goes into something like lock more often than a convention box, so reducing transmission losses.

 

I was disappointed with the mazda box in that it only comes with 6 gears, probably a weight saving?

When many new autos now are 7 or 8 gears.

 

The other thing i'm finding is some autos are better than others.

Edited by xtrailman
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Yes from what I'm learning owners of the torque converter types prefer them to the DSG.

 

While the DSG i'm told still has a DMF, and two clutches to go wrong so its difficult to see any advantage over manual.

The dry type is said to be inferior to the latest unproven? wet DSG.

 

To what i can gather Mazda are claiming the auto goes into something like lock more often than a convention box, so reducing transmission losses.

 

I was disappointed with the mazda box in that it only comes with 6 gears, probably a weight saving?

When many new autos now are 7 or 8 gears.

 

The other thing i'm finding is some autos are better than others.

 

I've had conventional auto's in 3,4,5,6 and 7 speed flavours, an automated manual (Alfa Selespeed) and two DSG's. Never purchased a CVT but driven two (Audi and Chrysler). The 6 speed conventional auto I had was the Aisin box as fitted to the Mazda.

The conventional Auto has smoother control in 1st and reverse but at all other times above crawling I prefer the DSG. The wet clutch VW DSG has been around for over 7 years now, early problems existed with the mechatronic unit and resulted in VW offering a lifetime warranty in the US. VW now say DSG Warranty claims are lower than that of their conventional autos.

The dry clutch units have been fairly reliable and offer increased economy and reduced maintenance over the wet clutch. The first 7 speed dry clutch box was only rated for 250NM but VAG have now released dry clutch boxes with increased torque rating that will replace all wet clutch DSG boxes over the next few years.

 

On VW's wet clutch DSG the clutches are not designed to be changed during the life of the gearbox and would require a full gearbox strip much the same as the wet clutches inside a conventional automatic gearbox. The DMF is not subject to the loads and speed differentials that it is on a manual. All down changes have engine and gearbox speed matched before the clutch engages with the dmf. VAG USA say they have more warranty claims for torque convertor failure than they do for DSG clutch/dmf failure. Data for the dry clutch units is a bit thin as yet and as the high torque box is only just being fitted then time will have to tell.

 

VW Audi Group wet clutch DSG's are made with Borg Warner, the dry clutch boxes in conjunction with LuK

Ford, Merc and BMW are using the wet clutch Getrag gearbox, I've only driven a Mondeo and yes the down changes do seem a little slower than the VW's but not a lot in it.

Ford and Getrag also have a low torque dry clutch box under development for installment in the Fiesta and on Focus and other models fitted with the new 1. 0 Ecoboost.

 

Cheers

Lee

Yeti 2.0TDi DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Citigo ASG, Swift Challenger.

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Hi Lee, I agree with your views though I would add that the Ford box is damn slow to change down in Sport mode, changing up is seemless and quick but down changing is not good, Regards, Ian.

 

On all dual clutch boxes the change up is virtually seemless but down changes require the driven clutch disengaging the engine revs increased to match gearbox speed and then the other clutch engaging. I do agree that the Ford boxes takes a little longer to do this than VAG box. Vag quote 0. 6 second for a down change.

 

Cheers

Lee

Yeti 2.0TDi DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Citigo ASG, Swift Challenger.

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Manual gear changes are a thing of the past.

 

Gra.

 

i disagree with that comment

 

see i have drove a fair few auto's and dont like them! not one bit! boring to drive.

i love my manual and will always have a manual box in my car

1999 Shogun V6 LWB

1993 coachman vip 460/2

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Well the wife (in her Micra) parked next to a Sorento 2008 reg, when I got out I checked the road tax out £445 was printed, as I also have a Sorento, I thought what model was it, when I looked at the rear door it had XE marking which is the same as mine, when I looked in the car it was Auto!!

 

So just on VED it is a non starter for me. I have just paid £270 I wonder what he will pay next renewal date?

2013(13) Sorento KX2 2. 2 Diesel Manual, (With smelling clutch) Glittering Metal (Metallic Grey) dragging a 2020 Coachman VIP 520 with a Powrtouch Evolution Motor Mover (Towing @ 80. 0%) :)

 

1288275170_2019VIP.jpg.775f2d8ce7b26db242e04a2e77903cd0.jpg

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i disagree with that comment

 

see i have drove a fair few auto's and dont like them! not one bit! boring to drive.

i love my manual and will always have a manual box in my car

 

Have you driven any of the new bread of dual clutch boxes?

 

Many performance cars available now do not come with a manual box, from little GTi's through BMW M5's to Ferrari's all these performance models are available with Dual Clutch transmissions only.

 

Do you think the designers did this to make them "Boring to drive?"

 

Try one and you may be suprised.

 

With many luxury and large and small performance models and now some eco models coming as "Auto" only with no choice of a manual option then it seems Champ may have seen the future correctly.

 

Cheers

Lee

 

Well the wife (in her Micra) parked next to a Sorento 2008 reg, when I got out I checked the road tax out £445 was printed, as I also have a Sorento, I thought what model was it, when I looked at the rear door it had XE marking which is the same as mine, when I looked in the car it was Auto!!

 

So just on VED it is a non starter for me. I have just paid £270 I wonder what he will pay next renewal date?

 

The old 2. 5 Sorento used a very out of date conventional auto, it was only a 4 speeder to start with but later changed to a 5 speeder but still a decade behind the competition.

 

Even the new 2. 2Tdi Auto Sorento uses a bought in conventional 6 speeder which lags seriously behind the newer breed.

 

The thread starter is looking at a modern auto with only 3mpg difference between the manual and auto .

 

Cheers

Lee

Edited by logiclee

Yeti 2.0TDi DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Citigo ASG, Swift Challenger.

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A thread on HJ recently come to the conclusion that in this country 80% of new cars sold were manual.

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Have you driven any of the new bread of dual clutch boxes?

 

Many performance cars available now do not come with a manual box, from little GTi's through BMW M5's to Ferrari's all these performance models are available with Dual Clutch transmissions only.

 

Do you think the designers did this to make them "Boring to drive?"

 

Try one and you may be suprised.

 

With many luxury and large and small performance models and now some eco models coming as "Auto" only with no choice of a manual option then it seems Champ may have seen the future correctly.

 

Cheers

Lee

 

 

no i havent to be honest i was just refering to the normal auto's

but to be honest dual clutch autos like you say are more in the high end motors which are WELL out of my price range!

1999 Shogun V6 LWB

1993 coachman vip 460/2

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A thread on HJ recently come to the conclusion that in this country 80% of new cars sold were manual.

 

That is certainly true as the majority of auto's on sale come with power sapping, fuel using conventional Auto's. It's only in the last few years that VAG have offered DSG across most of their models with the indroduction of the dry clutch DSG.

Ford have only just started offering Powershifts and are still a while away from the dry clutch for smaller models.

 

BMW have the dual clutch but only for high powered version, they as well as JLR have gone down the 8 speed auto route to give performance and economy better than the manual versions. Jaguar no longer offer manual boxes.

 

Nearly every mainstream manufacturer has a dual clutch gearbox program, PSA (Peugeot, Citroen) currently offer auto only automated manuals on some of their eco models but these are not that good but should be replaced with Dual Clutch over the next couple of years.

And of course Hybrid and electric vehicles are auto.

 

We also need to look at the the age groups, this forum is typically older drivers who can remember 3 speed Auto's on Cortina's and small hatchbacks with little power and torque convertor auto's. On younger motoring forums we have the playstation generation who have been raised on paddle shift F1 and Grand Turismo 5, they see all the "Halo" cars like the M5, Veyron, Ferrari etc and see Dual Clutch paddle shifts. Manufacturers are starting to turn round, to aim at the younger crowd the Polo GTi, Fabia VRS and Ibiza Cupra were all offered only with a 7 speed DSG only.

 

So the tide is turning in the industry, manufactures are developing auto's that offer more performance and more economy than a manual and are seen as a premium product by the majority of the younger market.

 

The sticking point currently is cost and this is where manufacturers need to move. As the numbers rise cost will come down but even so manufacturers are still cashing in. Audi charge £1400 for the 7 speed DSG and this box is £1300 at VW and £700 at Skoda. On the Fabia 1. 2TSi the DSG has the same performance and economy figures as the manual and was offered with ESP and hill hold, when the VAT free offer was on it made the DSG a £200 option. How does Audi get away with £1400?

 

So I think the future is moving away from the manual but it will not be a quick change, as hybrid, eco, luxury and performance models become some sort of Auto only then the halo effect will move auto's into the preffered choice but only if manufacturers offer them at a fair price.

 

Intersting times all round, manufacturers have to reduce CO2 year on year, matched engine/auto mapping is already starting to appear and the next big thing to hit caravanners is weight, Ford have stated the next Mondeo and other large models will be reduced by 300kg and other will follow so that's large family cars with only 1200-1500kg kerb weights and the newer breed of smaller higher boost turbo reduce weights further. The new 125bhp Ford Ecoboost is an all alloy block and can fit inside a sheet of A4 paper, it's half the weight of the unit it replaces.

 

So technology is shifting and it's away from what caravanners have typically wanted to buy.

 

We will have to wait and see.

 

Cheers

Lee

Yeti 2.0TDi DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Citigo ASG, Swift Challenger.

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Hi,

Our car is far from boring compared to a manual. It has a 'kick down' which is very entertaining as well as the fact that it is as entertaining in Sport mode as it has a sequential change. But I must admit that we do drive it in manual almost always. But the auto is very relaxing especially in slow traffic, so you have the best of both worlds,

Regards,

Ian.

Edited by ian dunning

Bailey Unicorn Vigo and a 2017 Ford S Max and a Mercedes SLK AMG Sport 9 speed, my mid life crisis solver.

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Hi,

Our car is far from boring compared to a manual. It has a 'kick down' which is very entertaining as well as the fact that it is as entertaining in Sport mode as it has a sequential change. But I must admit that we do drive it in manual almost always. But the auto is very relaxing especially in slow traffic, so you have the best of both worlds,

Regards,

Ian.

 

Ian,

 

Do you have the powershift dual clutch or the earlier durashift 6 speed conventional auto?

Yeti 2.0TDi DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Citigo ASG, Swift Challenger.

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Ian,

 

Do you have the powershift dual clutch or the earlier durashift 6 speed conventional auto?

 

Hi Lee,

It is the powershift version. Our last car was a Citroen Picasso with the similar box though not dual clutch,

Regards,

Ian.

Edited by ian dunning

Bailey Unicorn Vigo and a 2017 Ford S Max and a Mercedes SLK AMG Sport 9 speed, my mid life crisis solver.

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