CadmannUK Posted October 23, 2005 Author Share Posted October 23, 2005 UPDATE Went to see both Renault and our Bailey dealer. Renault Showroom manager jaw hit the floor when he was shown the Caravan magazine article and our handbook that tells us we can only tow 850Kgs. He checked sales brochures and they do not mention this lower limit. I asked him tocheck the Espace sale brochure as well and that one did not mention these lower figures. He had to go and get an un-opened Espace handbook and then he could see that the Espace also has a much lower limit as well. It appears that Renault do not think that their cars would cope with a fully loaded trailer and a fully loaded car, so they reduce the figure for safety. He agreed that as it stands our car is NOT suitable for towing our 550/6. Bailey Dealer, Our local dealer could not beleive that Bailey are rolling off 550/6's with a MRO noseweight of 92Kgs. Thought that the Al-Ko chassis figures of 100Kgs on the overrun device was a very serious issue and will be phone Bailey on Monday morning to see what they are going to do about it. I'll keep you all posted. Cad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest iancjc Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 UPDATE Went to see both Renault and our Bailey dealer. Renault Showroom manager jaw hit the floor when he was shown the Caravan magazine article and our handbook that tells us we can only tow 850Kgs. He checked sales brochures and they do not mention this lower limit. I asked him tocheck the Espace sale brochure as well and that one did not mention these lower figures. He had to go and get an un-opened Espace handbook and then he could see that the Espace also has a much lower limit as well. It appears that Renault do not think that their cars would cope with a fully loaded trailer and a fully loaded car, so they reduce the figure for safety. He agreed that as it stands our car is NOT suitable for towing our 550/6. Bailey Dealer, Our local dealer could not beleive that Bailey are rolling off 550/6's with a MRO noseweight of 92Kgs. Thought that the Al-Ko chassis figures of 100Kgs on the overrun device was a very serious issue and will be phone Bailey on Monday morning to see what they are going to do about it. I'll keep you all posted. Cad 42205[/snapback] Cad good luck mate - I was thinking about this thread yesterday and I realised that whilst on holiday in France this year normal megans (hatchs and estates) and also scenics were being used by plenty of French and Ducth drivers as towcars. From memory at leat 2 or 3 were towing big(ish) single axle 5 and 6 birth models - even taking into account some european vans being lighter I cannot how these were being used in accordance with the weight limits you have. At least one the Megans was packed to the rafters with luggage and people and had 3 bikes on the back as well. As a matter of interest - what is the towing limit for the loaded Espace? (I nearly purchased one last year). Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CadmannUK Posted October 24, 2005 Author Share Posted October 24, 2005 Cad good luck mate - I was thinking about this thread yesterday and I realised that whilst on holiday in France this year normal megans (hatchs and estates) and also scenics were being used by plenty of French and Ducth drivers as towcars. From memory at leat 2 or 3 were towing big(ish) single axle 5 and 6 birth models - even taking into account some european vans being lighter I cannot how these were being used in accordance with the weight limits you have. At least one the Megans was packed to the rafters with luggage and people and had 3 bikes on the back as well. As a matter of interest - what is the towing limit for the loaded Espace? (I nearly purchased one last year). Ian 42290[/snapback] Ian, From the latest handbook on the Espace, and I can only remember the 1. 9dCi figures it can Tow 2000Kgs (Driver only), or 1500Kgs 'Any other situation'. It drops by the same amount as the figures on the Scenic. Cad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank.A Posted October 24, 2005 Share Posted October 24, 2005 Hi Cad, I posted this in brief some time ago but I will repeat it here in more detail as it is similar to your towing limit problem. Sorry but it's long. In 2002 as we had both taken early retirement,we decided to go overboard and buy a new MB C220CDI Sport Coupe. This weighed in at 1560kgs,143bhp,240lbsft of torque and rear wheel drive. It would pull our 1220kg Europa with no bother. The salesman,the servive dept and MB UK all assured me that the towing limit for this vehicle was 1500kgs with any transmission. I did a further check with Towsafe and got a thimbs up. The car arrived late 2002 complete with MB removable hook and various goodies. After a few days I got down to reading the owners handbook and got a shock. This car was available with petrol engines of 1. 8,2. 0 and 2. 3litre and the 2. 2 diesel that we had bought. The towing limits were 1500kgs for the 2. 0 and 2. 3 petrol and 1200kgs for the 1. 8 petrol and the diesel. The VIN plate confirmed this fact. Back at the dealership I started a real witch hunt. The saloon and estate versions of the C Class C220CDI had a towing limit of 1500kgs. The information could not be found in any literature but the owners handbook. All C Class are built on the same platform with similar weight etc. The principal at the dealership was an ex caravan sales manager and could not understand the problem as the Europa was well inside 85% which he thought was the only thing that mattered. He didn't understand manufacturers towing limits. I left it with him to investigate further. He contacted MB UK who thought that a mistake had been made by MB Germany. MB Germany told him that as he had sold the car it was his problem. They would not discuss it further. Meanwhile I had been asking questions on a C Sport Coupe Forum. It was difficult finding an owner of a diesel as it was not sold in the USA and their handbooks did not list it. I eventually got a PM from an Eastern European diesel owner who told me that his handbook quoted 1500kgs for the diesel. Finally after 5 months the dealership admitted that I had been sold a vehicle not fit for purpose and gave me a full refund. I then bought a Passat and saved £10k. Current data on C220CDI Sport Coupe lists the towing limit at 1500kgs. You should expect nothing less that a full refund. Frnk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CadmannUK Posted October 25, 2005 Author Share Posted October 25, 2005 Hi All, I have had a letter from Renault's Customer Services department, and I've included it below for you all to see:- "To clarify this matter, as long as the combination of the vehicle kerb weight, the caravan weight (unladen) and the weight of passengers, luggage, pets and other items, (the train weight), does not exceed 3050ks, we consider that you are within our recommendations for towing safely and within the vehicles capabilities. I hope this letter provides the explanation you required." So Renault are telling me I can ignore the 850kg limit on the car with passengers, even thought in all of their handbooks they are reducing the vehicles towing limits as they do not think that they have the capability to carry a large internal payload (occupants/luggage) and pull a large external payload simultaneously!! Now this means to me that if I do this:- Car Kerb weight = 1530kg My weight = 75kg Van unladen = 1078kg Van essentials = 75kg TOTAL = 2758kg I am OK, but I purchased this car because it has seven seats, so I can take seven people on holiday, that is why we purchased a 6 birth caravan. The salesman was even buying the same caravan as us at that time. Car Kerb weight = 1530kg Seven people = 525kg (7x75) Van unladen = 1078kg Van essentials = 75kg TOTAL = 3208kg That is 158kg over the GTW without any luggage, or other stuff in the van or car. I was told specifically by the Renault dealer that this vehicle was suitable. At NO time did he mention that I would have to reduce any towing figures as I added the passengers. I have checked the sales brochure for the Scenic that I got at the time, and although it mentions 'Maximum Towing Weight Braked - Driver Only (kg) = 1300' that also does not state that I have to take the passengers out of that figure. What about my warranty? What about my car insurance? What about my van insurance? What figure do you think any of them would use if I had to make a claim. The 850kg one printed in the vehicles handbook no doubt. Cad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanM Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 It seems that the problem lies with the car dealer, not the caravan dealer/manufacturer, as the car dealer has been specific that your chosen model will tow your van. I agree a MRO noseweight of 92kg for this model is high, and would naturally be higher with 2 gas bottles, spare tyre & kipple etc filling the front locker, but careful loading of the van itself can assist. As an example I usually only carry 1 gas bottle (2 for france only) and although we usually keep the spare in the front locker when using my wifes car (Picasso 2. 0HDI) the spare is removed from the locker to reduce the noseweight to an acceptable limit. An alko spare wheel carrier would allow the wheel to be slung under the van and just behind the rear axle, with this weight further back the noseweight will reduce. I see you have measured the noseweight in effect as MIRO with a full front locker, and this is when the noseweight will be highest. Start carrying an awning etc and by placing this over the axle, forward or behind of to adjust weight, then again the noseweight can be altered. However your weight estimates above have ommitted several important factors, such as accessories (spare tyre?), and optional habitiaion equipment, as the essentials are stuff such as gas cylinder, crockery, pots & pans, toilet fluids, aquaroll, wastemaster etc. There is a need to consider food, clothing etc, and I'm afraid that means your estimates need revising upwards to incorporate that. It would seem in any case your van is & car would exceed the MTW of the renault, as in reality although they are quoted as optional food & clothing are far from optional, and quoting the optional allowances of food & clothing etc would simply give you a stronger case. I'd actually suggest that you use the van's MTPLM (1326KG) to justify your argument, as the 85% advice applies to van MTPLM vs car kerbweight, and with your passenger estimate of 525KG then the total train weight of car, MTPLM, passengers is 3381KG. That doesn't take into account extras flung in the car either. "Scars are souvenirs you never loose" 2010 Swift Charisma Freestyle 550 + 2007 Nissan Pathfinder Aventura. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inspector Bob Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 Hi, Of no consolotaion other than information. Sterling have done exactly the same with nose weights. They supply the van empty so theirs no real problem but you put the bits in the slots i. e. gas bottles and spare wheel and you are well over the 75kg. I have written on this before and my only comment is that you don't really know until you actually weigh the nose what you have to play with and only then can you move stuff about. Not ideal but when you consider that most cases of snaking are caused by poor loading it makes sense to get that right every time. It is bloody inconvenient moving everything about whether you are going away for a long stay with awning or a short stay without but if you have to check the weight everytime its easy enough and means doing a bit of juggling with water tanks and toilets etc but is easy once you get into it. For any "new" caravanners its a nightmare but my mistake was not reading and understanding the 85% rule and taking a salesmans word for the fact that my then car a Bora was ok to tow the van. As it happens it was something like 90+% but if towed cautiously was fine. I later changed the car anyway and bought my Passat purely on weight and reliability ( tongue in cheek) and its fine. The issue about Renault is I think a bit like some of the Fords they don't give a towing weight and I believe you can't tow with some. I suppose that the vehicles are only fit for the purpose they are designed for and unfortunately some of the people who sell them don't know enough about the promises they make. Whether you can get your cash back or whether the letter from them is your insurance policy is another matter but make no bones about it, if they can escape the wrap they will. In my humble opinion you would need quite a hefty beast to pull a larger van and 7 people and all the luggage. The dealer should have advised better once fed with all the facts. Hope you get the matter sorted to your satisfaction. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CadmannUK Posted January 10, 2006 Author Share Posted January 10, 2006 Hi All, Quick Update. ..... With regard to this problem I'm having with my 2005 Bailey 550/6, I just found out today that the 2006 model Bailey Ranger 550/6 now has a nose weight of just 62kg. That's a whooping decrease from the 92kg I've got. ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hobbybod Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 As there are two Noseweight-related threads running forgive me if I post this in both, but it is rather important. Right, further to this VERY important, but oft ignored, aspect of towing I have gleaned a few more snippets of info. . . . . . . from my 'industry' pal! 1) he confirmed that if you tow outside any of the stipulated limits for the towbar, car, hitch, or caravan (including noseweight), you are towing illegaly and therefore UNINSURED. You could be personally liable for any consequential damage following an accident and liable to prosecution. 2) Caravans with noseweights in excess of 100kgs are outside the limits of the hitch and do not conform to the construction and use regs. Consequently they are not fit for sale! And most likely, illegal for sale! 3) Check the noseweight of any 'van you buy and refuse it, if it is outside any of the legal limits. You could try to make a maximum 'delivered' noseweight a condition of sale so that you know it will suit your towcar. 4) He was told by an industry guy that ALKO have been trying to get the UK makers to fit their new load-sensing Jockey Wheel (to check noseweight) as O. E. As yet, all UK makers have refused. I wonder why!!!! Continental makers are already starting to fit them (the Knott version anyway)!! 5) Also, seemingly there is a dearth of caravan chassis engineers who can calculate the noseweight, given the weight and position of all the fittings in the 'van etc. As someone pointed out, . . . this is not difficult! I have got two tickets to the CC Question-Time event at the East Midlands airport in March. (We're both going!) Looks like 'Noseweight' will come up again, as it did at the last event I attended, a couple of years back! The CC, (and other clubs) should really be more pro-active on this issue for the benefit, and safety, of its membership. Nothing will change on this important safety matter, until we customers all make a fuss and insist on having 'sensible' and legal noseweights on ex-works caravans. Happy & Safe 'vannin' and . . . . take care out there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelonegroover Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Hi All, Quick Update. ..... With regard to this problem I'm having with my 2005 Bailey 550/6, I just found out today that the 2006 model Bailey Ranger 550/6 now has a nose weight of just 62kg. That's a whooping decrease from the 92kg I've got. ... 49846[/snapback] Hi CadmannUK and all, There does seem to be an inherent problem with the nose weight of the Ranger 550/6, there are ways around this, which have been discussed. There is also a problem with the Renault Scenic range. This car, although it might be classed as a small people carrier/family car is based a small to medium sized car. The Megane. I have not seen many, if any at all cars of this class (Golf, Focus, Astra. ..) towing caravans the size of the Ranger 550/6. I would advise going to the next class up ie. (Mondeo, Vectra, Laguna. ..). regards Lloyd Swift Challenger 490 Sorento + Fabia to help the Sorento up hills! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxiboy Posted January 13, 2006 Share Posted January 13, 2006 Hi I nearly got caught out with my laguna - due to the limit based on driver only. Even the max train weight was rubbish compared to other cars. . I therefore had to change the laguna quick ! It seems like Renault are clearly not rated to tow anything more than a 50 kg trailer !!!!!!! . .. someone did say it was because they were concerned about their clutches !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.