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Re-Mapping Turbo Diesels


Lunar Campers
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Hi, I am considering having my Kia Sorento 2. 5 XSE Auto remapped/chipped and wondered if anyone had personal experience of this?

 

Bet Top Gear wouldn't ever do a test like this to see if its worth while ! Far too practical for them now. ..but I can imagine Raymond Baxter would have in a time when cars didn't have to be driven sideways round an airfield !!!!!

 

Or am I just showing my age again.

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Not with that car but I've had a few cars remapped. Never known a TDI that didn't gain around 30bhp/40ft. lbs with a remap, definately worth getting done.

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Well worth looking at, but you should tell your insurance company and it may impact on your policy. Some companies are happy with remapping and others aren't. If if goes Pete Tong and you are involved in an accident and haven't disclosed the remapping, they may not pay up. It may also impact on your warranty (if you have one) as franchised dealers will pick it up when the car is being serviced.

 

 

M

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I borrowed my brothers 2005 Land Cruiser, LC3. Auto.

Out of the factory it was about 168 bhp and 384 Tq.

I bought an upgrade box which put the claimed horse power up to about 190 and the Torque up to about 480.

It was definatly more powerful, thats for sure.

However, when towing his 6,5 M twin axle, weighing around 1800kg, the upgrade made no difference at all, because the automatic box just compensated for the extra power by changing down a gear.

What I am saying is, the engine developed more power, but the auto box just changed down to a lower gear regardless.

So all the extra Tq that the engine could develop, was not really of any benefit, as the auto box just picked itself, what gear it wanted to be in.

 

If the gearbox had been a manual, then I am sure my findings would be different, as you could hold a higher gear, and make use of the extra torque.

Didn't make any difference to the fuel economy either.

Still around 21 mpg, just like before the upgrade went on.

 

Without the caravan though, there was a noticible difference in get up and go.

 

Graham

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Had my 3 year old diesel Subaru fitted with a box from Energy Tuning, Difference is more power torque up from 350nm - 390nm thats the bit i notice the most, mpg up around 6mpg less smoke on start up and just like an extra cylinder and much less frequent gear changes,

 

Box has on/off switch switchable torque and bhp low/med/high.

 

So far so good

 

Jt

Coachman Pastiche

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I enquired about getting my Audi 2. 5 TDI done and was advised that there little point as experience said it made little or no difference for that particular engine!

 

And that was from the guys selling the upgrade!!!

 

G.

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If i was going to have a remap, i would have a re map, not fit a magic box.

 

A proper re map first involves testing on a rolling road, this should test all the engine sensors to ensure none are faulty, or operating out of range.

You should also have a print out of the power and torque outputs, a graph for comparison purposes.

 

A re map then uses the existing engine processor, not a add on?

 

Afterward's another rolling road test to print out the new outputs.

 

I would be asking for more low end torque, more than more top end power, and hopefully a little more MPG.

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Volvo have an official company called Polestar which if fitted has no effect on any warranty. Having looked at the cost ~ £650 I have ruled it out, not enough advantages!

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If i was going to have a remap, i would have a re map, not fit a magic box.

 

A proper re map first involves testing on a rolling road, this should test all the engine sensors to ensure none are faulty, or operating out of range.

You should also have a print out of the power and torque outputs, a graph for comparison purposes.

 

A re map then uses the existing engine processor, not a add on?

 

Afterward's another rolling road test to print out the new outputs.

 

I would be asking for more low end torque, more than more top end power, and hopefully a little more MPG.

 

I agree. I use a VW specialist for my remaps, scans the car and dyno's it first, then supplies a before and after printout.

 

Having said that, I know several guys with 'tuning boxes' and they're all happy with them.

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I would want to see the results on a rolling road to prove it was a improvement if i was spending money .

 

In a lot of cases changing the air filter on a diesel engine can give a return of power which has been loss .

 

 

Any Modification like re - mapping you need to inform your insurance company as any " do not pay " card they will use to not pay out in an accident .

 

Dave

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Hi Lunar Campers,

Try a look at the UK Sorento Owners forum, and read just how good members think Taff's PowerBox is. I owned a 55 reg XT auto for three yrs and the differance it made esp' for towing was incredible. Long journeys were made more comfortable, the engine was not searching gears at the slightest gradient and could quiet easily pull my 'van at 70 mph @ 2000 rpm, now thats steady. In fact take look at my garage pictures on the Sorie forum, a mate of mine with the new Range Rover and same 'van was cringing at the fact the Sorento out performed his Rangey on towabillity and fuel consumption. Catch ya later,indoors.

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Iv had my 2004 td5 land rover discovery remapped and it's been the best thing every pulls better doesn't change down as often on hills and better mpg

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I guess it is down to if it is a big problem.

 

There is always a downside to re chipping it in that it is being set up to pull more out of the engine so must have some impact elsewhere. Perhaps the life of the engine will be shortened, the valves or other components last less miles and then there is probably more fuel being thrown in the engine.

 

You dont get something for nothing.

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I would recommend a remap but make sure you do your research and definitely inform your insurance company. When I had my last car remapped my insurance company (Admiral) wanted to know by what percentage the BHP had increased, in my case it was 10% to 13% and ended up costing me about £65 on my premium.

 

You dont get something for nothing.

 

It's hardly "for nothing", my remap was £499 plus VAT

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I am assuming you are looking for more m. p. g. power should not be an issue with a Sorento. .if thats the case try a plug in box around £200 from Turbo tune DT they work well .

Stevenj

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I guess it is down to if it is a big problem.

 

There is always a downside to re chipping it in that it is being set up to pull more out of the engine so must have some impact elsewhere. Perhaps the life of the engine will be shortened, the valves or other components last less miles and then there is probably more fuel being thrown in the engine.

 

You dont get something for nothing.

 

 

Not always the case. .... it is about optimisation. if the injectors are timed wrongly or have the wrong dwell time you can get wasted fuel as well as a reduction in power. ..Fuel has to be atomised to get the most out of it. .. the injectors squirt the correct flow pattern but if dwell time is too long or trigger timeing is out then you suffer fuel drop out. . Fuel dropout just floods the bores and is not as easy to ignite. A good remap is like fitting a Power commander or a jetting kit to a bike engine. It adds power only because the engine is optomised. To tune an engine you actually need to increase air flow in and/or out of the engine with a higher flowing exhaust or air box/air filters then to get more power you need to have different duration and/or lift camshafts. The more internal engine work like flowed and skimmed cylinder heads. .. If you have a turbo then this needs to be swapped or altered. The engine cannot produce more power than it is designed to produce if boost is not increased and no other pysical parts like the parts mentioned above. All you can do is optimise the engine to produce power that it is already designed to produce.

 

So a diesel has no throttle like a petrol engine. There is no throttle slide or butterfly. The diesel engine does it all on a wide open throttle and the "throttle" is simply adding more fuel or shutting it down. So to produce more power or be more fuel efficient is down to dwell and injector phasing and timing. Newer diesel engines do have a throttle body with a butterfly but this is not to be confused with a petrol engine as they use it to alter intake pressures and add exhaust gasses to reduce NoX emissions via the EGR valve. (just incase you want to tell me yours has a throttle with a butterfly).

 

So mapping is not tuning in the traditional sense it is an engine optimisation. OK more power will put more heat into the motor but only when you are actually using the power gains given not at a cruising speed or normal acceleration. But the MPG changes gains when cruising will be there as less fuel is wasted with this optimised fueling. ...

 

Hard to explain fully. ... sorry if it is confusing. .. But NO engine inernals are being altered and if boost is not changed the engine is only producing more power because it is set up correctly. ...

Edited by morepower
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Thanks Morepower, I guess with a name like that you would be sold on the idea.

 

Thanks for the explanation, I think I understand and see where you are coming from. I guess the only doubt I would have is that a vast multinational car manufacturer that is doing all it can to get a market advantage in efficientcy or mpg or power with all its limitless resources is a) not setting up its engines to perform at the peak of efficientcy or B) is not employing the genius of the re-chipping bods or c) not simply copying their setup.

 

Somehow it does not quite add up that a small aftersales firm can do a better job than the manufacturer. I know it has been the case many years ago that Cooper or Lotus would re-tune cars for rallying and I guess it is the same thing but just on a modern engine setup but somehow I feel there must be some reason why the manufacturer has not done what the re-mapping bod has done. What that is I am not sure if it is not down to the points I noted in my original post. Will a re-mapped engine last as long?

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If i was going to have a remap, i would have a re map, not fit a magic box.

 

A proper re map first involves testing on a rolling road, this should test all the engine sensors to ensure none are faulty, or operating out of range.

You should also have a print out of the power and torque outputs, a graph for comparison purposes.

 

A re map then uses the existing engine processor, not a add on?

 

Afterward's another rolling road test to print out the new outputs.

 

I would be asking for more low end torque, more than more top end power, and hopefully a little more MPG.

 

Yeah,

 

Thats exactly what I was after and have got when I purchased it. Torque well up over 300ftlb from 250 with just a mild 23 bhp lift on medium settings. Fuel tank range now 640 from 590 in normal use.

 

will pay for itself in 2 years or so.

 

I am happy.

 

Jt

Coachman Pastiche

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Guest Benzowner

Thanks Morepower, I guess with a name like that you would be sold on the idea.

 

Thanks for the explanation, I think I understand and see where you are coming from. I guess the only doubt I would have is that a vast multinational car manufacturer that is doing all it can to get a market advantage in efficientcy or mpg or power with all its limitless resources is a) not setting up its engines to perform at the peak of efficientcy or B) is not employing the genius of the re-chipping bods or c) not simply copying their setup.

 

Somehow it does not quite add up that a small aftersales firm can do a better job than the manufacturer. I know it has been the case many years ago that Cooper or Lotus would re-tune cars for rallying and I guess it is the same thing but just on a modern engine setup but somehow I feel there must be some reason why the manufacturer has not done what the re-mapping bod has done. What that is I am not sure if it is not down to the points I noted in my original post. Will a re-mapped engine last as long?

 

Another reason is that the vast multinational car manufacturers produce engine performance to the worst case senario for the countries they sell to, usually the US surprisingly. So our cars are effectively detuned and these after markets chips or remappers bring the cars up to peak efficiency. Another point, a remap is not detectable unless you have a startune type machine, the ones most cars are now plugged into for servicing, whereas the additional chip boxes are by their nature an add on unit. As regards insurance, tell them the engine has been remapped for better fuel efficiency and most accept with no additional premiums.

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Thanks Morepower, I guess with a name like that you would be sold on the idea.

 

Thanks for the explanation, I think I understand and see where you are coming from. I guess the only doubt I would have is that a vast multinational car manufacturer that is doing all it can to get a market advantage in efficientcy or mpg or power with all its limitless resources is a) not setting up its engines to perform at the peak of efficientcy or B) is not employing the genius of the re-chipping bods or c) not simply copying their setup.

 

Somehow it does not quite add up that a small aftersales firm can do a better job than the manufacturer. I know it has been the case many years ago that Cooper or Lotus would re-tune cars for rallying and I guess it is the same thing but just on a modern engine setup but somehow I feel there must be some reason why the manufacturer has not done what the re-mapping bod has done. What that is I am not sure if it is not down to the points I noted in my original post. Will a re-mapped engine last as long?

 

 

 

As Benzowner also points it. The problem large manufacturers have is engines are not designed for one market. It is global. In the USA most of the current higher power diesel engines are still either not available or just starting to arrive. Part of this is fuel quality and partly American fuel pumps have only one nozzle so the swap between not only different grades but different fuels will have an amount of the previous fuel in the pipes so would mix fuels. So they have to make an engine work with the worst grade of fuel available in the markets where that engine will be used. Toyota Hi-Lux pick ups are a good example as they are not overly powerful and not too economical either but add a chip or a remap and you gain 40bhp as this is the difference between the quality of European and rural African fuels! It is made to run on the worst fuels available where most cars will gain about 20BHP if they start with the same BHP levels before mapping. This is purely due to being optimised.

 

Adding power will always increase wear and tear if you use the extra power. But most engines are designed to run at maximum power for extended periods and manufacturers will run them on a dyno for weeks until they blow up. But how many actually run our car at maximum power and full throttle for any real period of time? A few seconds? Minutes? Hours? How many drive with full throttle up to the rev limiter? Most do not use the extra power given only the boost given in the in the working range we all use. We are still probably using less power than the stock un-mapped engine CAN produce we just use the added torque and power gained where we need it the most. So the added wear on parts would be if you use the engines new power gains all the time.

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Hi Ellisfield, Just thought I would add. I am not "Sold" on the idea. The problem is some companies can offer re-mapping and not know what they have done is totally correct and the things they have changed may not be the best way of mapping the engine. I do think the better companies do know what they are doing and create their maps on a dyno not just on the road or by feel. These companies prices are usually refelected in the prices they charge. Some say add on boxes are rubbish and you need a full re-map not just chipping some will say it doesnt matter both work as well as each other.

 

I know that our car cannot have a plug in box used even though a few companies do sell them! It does add power but it is not optimising the engine at specific RPM through the rev range and as our cars injection system is fully digital a box will just add a compensation to the whole rev range. So I would never buy a plug in box for our car. If I do have the car re-mapped it would be done by a company that does the job on a dyno and not just some generic map. As you can guess I do have to work on engines as well as build bikes to go very quickly. The Dynojet Power Commander boxes we use can be supplied with a dyno developed map for a specific bike. BUT this map was for a bike that was built to different tolerances (there is a range acceptable which have +/- figures so no two are the same) also they are not run-in in the same way and the wear during running in has a big effect. So the generic map will make a difference but not be totally correct for your/my engine. An example is my Suzuki GSXR600 project. Standard it had 104. 6BHP at the rear wheel. Adding an exhaust took this to 114BHP. Adding the Power comander added nothing but did improve the MPG by about 2mpg in normal use. Mapping added 2BHP and another couple of BHP after a mapping session on the dyno. OK not big gains like a car re-map but with other tuning work the engine was capable of 135BHP at the rear wheel. Which is equivilent to 155bhp at the crankshaft (where car power figures are usually quoted) which is not bad for a 600cc engine without a turbo.

 

But our old Renault I did have a plug in box as I know the owner of the company that makes them and I know he does a very good job. But I also know the injection system on that engine is a more basic system and does not have a 3D mappable fuel curve where for a given rpm the throttle is mapped for every 5% to 10% change of position. It has a simple curve which can be improved with a compensation done by a box and is worth doing if done right as the stock curve is as I pointed out too much of a compromise due to the fuel quality it has to allow for.

 

So I am not sold on it totally. It has to be done right and by someone who knows what they are doing as it can be no better than stock or could be worst in some cases as all they do is advance the injector timing then over dwell the injectors and try and push more fuel into the engine sooner and longer. This may add power but will not give any real increase in MPG. Companies like Diesel tuner do a good job and do not offer plug in boxes for engines that will not get a real benefit they only supply boxes for cars that will actually benefit from their product. So if you visit their website and do not find your car then it is because they feel it is not worth adding a box to it. They are selective and do a really good job, but it is still a compromise due to the more basic injection systems used on these engines but good gains are still to be found. If you need a proper re-map go to one where they actually have a dyno to set up your car and pay the extra. So I would say use the Diesel tuner website as a good guide to what is possible and if your car's engine is not listed then do not look for a tuning box on any other site as these will not work as well and would be a waste of money. If they do list it then go for it and buy a tuning box if you want to chip your cars engine.

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Cheers MP - I think you have won me round!!

 

I could really just not see it adding up before but your angle on it makes sense now.

 

Come to think of it I do remember a friend had a us spec MGB (way back years) and it was really slow as it had been tuned to meet US emission laws that had just come in so I can see that they would now have a standard spec at the lowest marker as they cannot make each car different in that way. This is just a modern angle on the same issue.

 

Thankfully I have a fairly big car and a rather small caravan so is tugs it fine as it is.

Cheers

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Hi LC,

Must just start by stating that MorePower bloke seems to know what he's talking about,hats off to him. Now I'm no tech head but when I was customising my XT Sorento I contacted Taff at http://griffinmotortuning. net/ after reading glowing reports of the PowerBox and K&N filter upgrade on the Sorento forum. I also added wheel spacers as this made the car even more stable for towing and improved the turning circle. Solo the Sorento became an X5 eater, Towing was a joy as the engine was doing what was expected of it, but now much easier, therefore driven correctly, solo or towing MPG improved. I was so impressed with the Sorento I kept it for three yrs, which was much longer than any other car I'd owned. I now drive a Toyota HiLux 3-0 D4D Twincab ( and MorePower is correct ) I thought initially I'd dropped the biggest clanger, on long distance runs from Germany fetching caravans back it wouldn't hold 70mph without wanting to change down, I contacted Taff and I now have had a PowerBox on this car for three yrs, it's something that can be fitted by such as me within 15 mns, and can be removed and car left as was quiet easily ( if you wish to take for service whilst still under warranty ).It's cheaper than mapping and it is not permanent. Catch ya later,indoors.

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Cheers MP - I think you have won me round!!

 

I could really just not see it adding up before but your angle on it makes sense now.

 

Thankfully I have a fairly big car and a rather small caravan so is tugs it fine as it is.

Cheers

Hi LC,

Must just start by stating that MorePower bloke seems to know what he's talking about,hats off to him.

I now drive a Toyota HiLux 3-0 D4D Twincab ( and MorePower is correct ) I thought initially I'd dropped the biggest clanger, on long distance runs from Germany fetching caravans back it wouldn't hold 70mph without wanting to change down, I contacted Taff and I now have had a PowerBox on this car for three yrs.

 

 

 

Thanks guys. . I knew playing with engines would be handy one day. .... haha.

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