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France- Speed Stickers-Up Date Re Size & Location.

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Now I'm really confused.

 

The topic is about "France - Speed Stickers" and that was what my post related to!

 

If a French Gendarme pulls me over "for my ignorance wrt to the "new" GTW > 3500 speed limits" then so be it!

 

But your reference to "especially with a pistol pointing towards your ear" was in Italy and nothing to do with speed limits or stickers!!!!

 

I've been to Naples and don't have any desire to return to the city itself. ... but loved the history and culture in the surrounding area!

 

G.

 

 

Just pointing out that you are at the mercy of the authorities when you travel abroad and unless you are fluent in that particular language, there is very little you can do. Under those circumstances why risk getting a lot of aggrovation just for the sake of a few pounds. I can assure you that French Gendarmes can be every bit as officious as the Italian Virgili Urbano. Policemen are they same all over the world, some just love to make you squirm.

 

 

Steve W

Edited by Steve W77

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Just pointing out that you are at the mercy of the authorities when you travel abroad and unless you are fluent in that particular language, there is very little you can do. Under those circumstances why risk getting a lot of aggrovation just for the sake of a few pounds. I can assure you that French Gendarmes can be every bit as officious as the Italian Virgili Urbano. Policemen are they same all over the world, some just love to make you squirm.

 

 

Steve W

 

Steve,

 

In almost 40 years of driving I've never had a problem with a policeman, a gendarme or an Italian Virgili Urbano.

 

Whilst I'm sure your experience of a "pistol pointing towards your ear" has left its mark. ..it really is not relevant to the topic being discussed.

 

I have driven in most European countries.

 

Despite 3 x SP30's in the 40 years, two parking tickets and taking a wrong turn in the centre of Amsterdam I have when needed held up my hand and apologised.

 

Not had any cause for concern.

 

Still think you were being unnecessarily dramatic about Italian cops in Naples given the topic was France- Speed Stickers!!

 

G. :rolleyes:

Edited by chapmag

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The problem is that Beejay keeps putting in his view BUT I HAVE NEVER SEEN HIS "EVIDENCE". If going to throw in comments then please produce the "PROOF"?

 

I have purchased the 150mm ones for the back of my caravan anyway. Not that These 80/90kph speed limits are any different from the legal limits for towing a caravan in this country anyway so no big deal. I certainly don't want to tow at 110+ kph even if I was able to.

 

Alan

 

Hi Alan

 

I'm sorry you doubt Beejay but if you find something that contradicts him then you'll find that your source is

wrong in all likelihood! We have as yet to see your evidence of course and if that is just the CC then as has

been pointed out they always believe their advertisers these days - sad but true of late.

 

neil

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Steve,

 

In almost 40 years of driving I've never had a problem with a policeman, a gendarme or an Italian Virgili Urbano.

 

Whilst I'm sure your experience of a "pistol pointing towards your ear" has left its mark. ..it really is not relevant to the topic being discussed.

 

I have driven in most European countries.

 

Despite 3 x SP30's in the 40 years, two parking tickets and taking a wrong turn in the centre of Amsterdam I have when needed held up my hand and apologised.

 

Not had any cause for concern.

 

Still think you were being unnecessarily dramatic about Italian cops in Naples given the topic was France- Speed Stickers!!

 

G. rolleyes.gif

 

 

N o skin of my nose what you think, break any rules you want, but don't winge when you get caught. A lot of bother to save £10.

 

 

 

Steve W

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N o skin of my nose what you think, break any rules you want, but don't winge when you get caught. A lot of bother to save £10.

 

 

 

Steve W

 

Steve,

 

I have no intention of getting caught (for speeding in France or taking a wrong turn in Italy!).

 

And (touch wood) to date I have been pretty successful!

 

G. :D :D :D

 

. i

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Steve,

 

I have no intention of getting caught (for speeding in France or taking a wrong turn in Italy!).

 

And (touch wood) to date I have been pretty successful!

 

G. biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

 

. i

 

 

And apparently no intention of displaying the required speed limit stickers.

 

 

Steve W

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And apparently no intention of displaying the required speed limit stickers.

 

 

Steve W

 

I'm still a little unsure on that one. ..... it has been suggested that UK registered vehicles do not need to display "French regulation" stickers. .. whilst French registered vehicles must undoubtedly do so!

 

Between now and May 9th when we arrive "sur le continent" I will resolve the question.

 

If I have to by law I will. ... my whole original point was if I do not have to then will the Gendarmes have any inkling or reason to pull me over!!??

 

Cheers,

 

G. B)

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I'm still a little unsure on that one. ..... it has been suggested that UK registered vehicles do not need to display "French regulation" stickers. .. whilst French registered vehicles must undoubtedly do so!

 

Between now and May 9th when we arrive "sur le continent" I will resolve the question.

 

If I have to by law I will. ... my whole original point was if I do not have to then will the Gendarmes have any inkling or reason to pull me over!!??

 

Cheers,

 

G. cool.gif

 

 

Well which ever way you decide, I hope you have a pleasant, trouble free, safe and most important of all an enjoyable holiday.

 

 

Steve W

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Well which ever way you decide, I hope you have a pleasant, trouble free, safe and most important of all an enjoyable holiday.

 

 

Steve W

 

I have no intention of having anything else!!!

 

G. :P

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I apologise for raising the hackles of some. ................but I have read the French Code de la Route have any of my detractors?

 

As support for my "insistence" this is from a French motoring forum regarding the speed limit discs

 

 

Une responsable du Législatif au Ministère de l'Equipement, des Transports. ..........de l'Ecologie et du Développement Durable.

 

Confirmerait en tous points, une question posée par un pratiquant de 4x4 de loisir, à savoir :

 

- PTRA de la carte grise > 3T5

- Limitations de vitesses à 90 / 80 / 50

- Pose obligatoire sur l'élément attelé des disques de vitesses

- Disques de 20 cm de diamètre, lettrage noir sur blanc, hauteur des lettres 15 cm ( peuvent être peints )

 

L'absence des disques conduit à une contravention de seconde catégorie.

 

Translates as:

 

"A spokesman for the Legal Department of the Ministry of Transport. .... confirms on all points

GTW over 3500 kg

Speed limits 90 / 80 / 50

compulsory fitment of speed discs on the towed element

Discs of 20 cm diameter, lettering in black on white, height of letters 15 cm. ... ......

The absence of discs incurs a second category penalty.

 

I did have a direct link to the French Ministry of Transport requirement for the specification of the discs which I cannot locate at the moment. ..but I will

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I apologise for raising the hackles of some. ................but I have read the French Code de la Route have any of my detractors?

 

As support for my "insistence" this is from a French motoring forum regarding the speed limit discs

 

 

Une responsable du Législatif au Ministère de l'Equipement, des Transports. ..........de l'Ecologie et du Développement Durable.

 

Confirmerait en tous points, une question posée par un pratiquant de 4x4 de loisir, à savoir :

 

- PTRA de la carte grise > 3T5

- Limitations de vitesses à 90 / 80 / 50

- Pose obligatoire sur l'élément attelé des disques de vitesses

- Disques de 20 cm de diamètre, lettrage noir sur blanc, hauteur des lettres 15 cm ( peuvent être peints )

 

L'absence des disques conduit à une contravention de seconde catégorie.

 

Translates as:

 

"A spokesman for the Legal Department of the Ministry of Transport. .... confirms on all points

GTW over 3500 kg

Speed limits 90 / 80 / 50

compulsory fitment of speed discs on the towed element

Discs of 20 cm diameter, lettering in black on white, height of letters 15 cm. ... ......

The absence of discs incurs a second category penalty.

 

I did have a direct link to the French Ministry of Transport requirement for the specification of the discs which I cannot locate at the moment. ..but I will

 

No Hackles here Beejay and I apologise for coming late to the party (read Thread)!

 

But isn't it a fact that the sticker rules apply only to French registered vehicles. ... whilst obviously the reduced speed limits for combinations with a plated GTW > 3500kg apply to everyone driving in France (regardless of nationality)?

 

Thanks in anticipation.

 

G.

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No Hackles here Beejay and I apologise for coming late to the party (read Thread)!

 

But isn't it a fact that the sticker rules apply only to French registered vehicles. ... whilst obviously the reduced speed limits for combinations with a plated GTW > 3500kg apply to everyone driving in France (regardless of nationality)?

 

Thanks in anticipation.

 

G.

 

 

 

 

If as you put it the sticker rules only apply to French registerd vehicles, would that not also apply to the 12 metre boards that the Spanish are apparently applying with vigour against British tourists. But then again maybe those that have been caught thought that Continental laws don't apply to them, or may be those that claim to have been caught are just making it up.

 

 

 

 

 

Steve W

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If as you put it the sticker rules only apply to French registerd vehicles, would that not also apply to the 12 metre boards that the Spanish are apparently applying with vigour against British tourists. But then again maybe those that have been caught thought that Continental laws don't apply to them, or may be those that claim to have been caught are just making it up. Steve W

 

Steve,

 

I haven't a clue. .. that's why I asked the question. ... do you have a definitive answer?

 

Cheers,

 

G.

 

P. S. Sorry Steve. .. but I've just realised you are it again. What has "12 metre boards that the Spanish are apparently applying with vigour" got to do with France- Speed Stickers? Last time it was cops in Naples!! ;) ;)

Edited by chapmag

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Steve,

 

I haven't a clue. .. that's why I asked the question. ... do you have a definitive answer?

 

Cheers,

 

G.

 

P. S. Sorry Steve. .. but I've just realised you are it again. What has "12 metre boards that the Spanish are apparently applying with vigour" got to do with France- Speed Stickers? Last time it was cops in Naples!! wink.gifwink.gif

 

 

 

 

It would appear that you are being deliberately arguementative,

 

You assert that the French do not have the right to enforce their own local legislation on you, because

 

the legislation does not exist in this country.

 

If that is indeed the case, then the same arguement must apply to any other EU state that imposes their

 

own laws on citizens of other

 

member states. For example the Spanish insist that any vehicle over 12 metres has to display a specific

 

maker board. This law does not exist in this country, but English tourist are apparentlly being stopped

 

and fined for failing to comply with the

 

Spanish law. Whether they have the legal

 

right to do this is a matter for debate, none the less, they are still taking the money.

 

 

If you fail to understand this, then I personally don't think you should travell abroad, if only for your own

 

safety, as most Police forces do not

 

suffer fools gladly.

 

 

Steve W

Edited by Steve W77

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It would appear that you are being deliberately arguementative,

 

You assert that the French do not have the right to enforce their own local legislation on you, because

 

the legislation does not exist in this country.

 

If that is indeed the case, then the same arguement must apply to any other EU state that imposes their

 

own laws on citizens of other

 

member states. For example the Spanish insist that any vehicle over 12 metres has to display a specific

 

maker board. This law does not exist in this country, but English tourist are apparentlly being stopped

 

and fined for failing to comply with the

 

Spanish law. Whether they have the legal

 

right to do this is a matter for debate, none the less, they are still taking the money.

 

 

If you fail to understand this, then I personally don't think you should travell abroad, if only for your own

 

safety, as most Police forces do not

 

suffer fools gladly.

 

 

Steve W

 

Steve,

 

I really am not meaning to be argumentative.

 

I am simply discussing French - Speed Stickers.

 

I have no doubt that if I am caught exceeding the speed limits the French are imposing on towing vehicles > GTW 3500kg (which includes my combo) then I will be fined.

 

What is unclear and therefore I am seeking clarification on is whether the French "rules" regarding "Speed Stickers" apply to non-French registered vehicles.

 

A matter I believe you haven't offered any authoritative input to date.

 

You seem to want to divert the discussion the the behaviours of gun wielding Italian police when reacting to minor traffic violations or the Spanish who (from your input) are inflicting fines on UK caravanners who aren't aware of their rules.

 

It is precisely because of this (lack of awareness of the French rules) that I want to understand their rules wrt Speed Stickers.

 

As previously stated (no argument intended) your posts on Italian and Spanish experiences (personal and by proxy) do not add value to the discussion on "France- Speed Stickers".

 

No offense meant.

 

G. :)

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Steve,

 

I really am not meaning to be argumentative.

 

I am simply discussing French - Speed Stickers.

 

I have no doubt that if I am caught exceeding the speed limits the French are imposing on towing vehicles > GTW 3500kg (which includes my combo) then I will be fined.

 

What is unclear and therefore I am seeking clarification on is whether the French "rules" regarding "Speed Stickers" apply to non-French registered vehicles.

 

A matter I believe you haven't offered any authoritative input to date.

 

You seem to want to divert the discussion the the behaviours of gun wielding Italian police when reacting to minor traffic violations or the Spanish who (from your input) are inflicting fines on UK caravanners who aren't aware of their rules.

 

It is precisely because of this (lack of awareness of the French rules) that I want to understand their rules wrt Speed Stickers.

 

As previously stated (no argument intended) your posts on Italian and Spanish experiences (personal and by proxy) do not add value to the discussion on "France- Speed Stickers".

 

No offense meant.

 

G. :)

 

Steve,

 

This is a post on a French web site for expats "TotalFrance. Com" which demonstrates my need for clarification. ....

 

**********************************************

 

Can I suggest that these apply to vehicles registered in France, just like the requirement for trailers over a certain weight to be registered,

 

Article R322-1

Modifié par Décret n°2009-136 du 9 février 2009 - art. 6

 

I. - Tout propriétaire d'un véhicule à moteur, d'une remorque dont le poids total autorisé en charge est supérieur à 500 kilogrammes ou d'une semi-remorque et qui souhaite le mettre en circulation pour la première fois doit faire une demande de certificat d'immatriculation en justifiant de son identité et de son domicile. Cette demande de certificat d'immatriculation est adressée au ministre de l'intérieur soit par l'intermédiaire du préfet d'un département choisi par le propriétaire du véhicule, soit par l'intermédiaire d'un professionnel de l'automobile habilité par le ministre de l'intérieur.

 

II. - Lorsque le propriétaire est une personne morale ou une entreprise individuelle, celui-ci justifie de son identité et de l'adresse de son siège social ou de celle de l'établissement d'affectation du véhicule.

 

III. - Pour un véhicule de location, le propriétaire justifie de son identité et de l'adresse de son siège social ou de celle de l'établissement de mise à disposition du véhicule.

 

IV. - Pour un véhicule faisant l'objet soit d'un contrat de crédit-bail, soit d'un contrat de location de deux ans ou plus, le propriétaire justifie de son identité et de l'adresse du domicile du locataire.

 

V. - Les dispositions du présent article ne sont pas applicables aux véhicules ou appareils agricoles remorqués dont le poids total en charge est inférieur à 1, 5 tonne.

 

VI. - Un arrêté du ministre chargé des transports, pris après avis du ministre de l'intérieur, fixe les conditions d'application du présent article.

 

VII. - Le fait, pour tout propriétaire, de mettre en circulation un véhicule sans avoir obtenu un certificat d'immatriculation est puni de l'amende prévue pour les contraventions de la quatrième classe.

or would you suggest that as soon as you arrive in France towing your caravan with your UK registered car you need to register your caravan, I think not.

 

or

 

Article R317-8 En savoir plus sur cet article. ..

Modifié par Décret n°2009-136 du 9 février 2009 - art. 4

I. Tout véhicule à moteur, à l'exception des matériels de travaux publics doit être muni de deux plaques d'immatriculation, portant le numéro assigné au véhicule et fixées en évidence d'une manière inamovible à l'avant et à l'arrière du véhicule.

 

Toutefois, toute motocyclette, tout tricycle ou quadricycle à moteur, tout cyclomoteur, tout véhicule agricole ou forestier à moteur attaché à une exploitation agricole ou forestière, à une entreprise de travaux agricoles ou à une coopérative d'utilisation de matériel agricole, peut ne porter qu'une plaque d'immatriculation, fixée en évidence d'une manière inamovible à l'arrière du véhicule.

 

 

 

Is it an offense for a UK registered vehicle to have number plates secured to the vehicle in a manner which do not comply with French legislation ?

 

Conversly if a French person with caravan arrives in the UK do they have to exibit the same reg no on the caravan as on their car, as that is the UK legislation. .

 

****************************************

 

The EU have a lot of questions to answer!!!!!

 

Cheers,

 

G.

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Firstly, I agree with Beejay. Secondly, in view of the amount of flak that there has been on this very subject, on both sides of the water, the prudent will fit "90" stickers on their caravan. The others- well, I can't tell you what to do! Btw, it's nice to see that paint is not illegal- do you know a good painter? biggrin.gif

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Chapmag, I feel that you are applying the law of the road in France, and to which all French registered vehicles must comply, to English vehicles. I feel that there is a degree of elasticity which means that, for example, one is entitled to take an English caravan to France without taking it to be separately registered. (Yet!!!)

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I guess none of us really know the score :) I have purchased the 15cm ones but do not intend to put these on my caravan "until I have to" :P

 

The GTW route is a somewhat stupid way of the French doing things and by all accounts is just as misunderstood in France as elsewhere. I have certaily seen what look to be 10cm, 15cm and 20cm stickers on lorries in Europe.

 

I think this article from the CC web site sums the French Auto clubs up perfectly. ...

 

Watch your Speed (France)

 

We recently published new speed limits for vehicles/outfits towing in France that are over 3. 5t in weight (May edition), which was provided by the legal department of the Association Française des Automobilistes. We have since received conflicting information from two different sources: the FFCC (Fédération Française de Camping et de Caravanning) and the FIA (Fédération Internationale de L'Automobile).

 

Both of these professional organisations have interpreted the same French law (Code de la Route articles R413 - 8 and R413-8-1) in two different ways:

The FFCC have interpreted the law as follows:

 

The lower speed limits of 90kph (on motorways and dual carriageways with a central reservation and 80kph on other roads outside of built up areas) are for any outfit where the towing vehicle has a maximum GTM (Gross Train Mass) exceeding 3. 5t (as indicated on the vehicle's handbook, or sometimes on the engine plate), irrespective of what the actual weight of the caravan/trailer being towed. If the GTM of the towing vehicle is less than 3. 5t then these lower speed limits do not apply.

The FIA do not agree:

 

They interpret the law to be, that any vehicle or combination of vehicles that has a total GVM (gross vehicle mass) of over 3. 5t must adhere to the new lower speed limits.

 

When subject to specific speed limits, as mentioned, stickers indicating these new limits should be displayed on the back of the trailer. There should be two: one for 80kph and one for 90kph. These stickers can only be brought from HGV supplier in France, the FFCC have advised us that law is very tolerant towards vehicles that don't have the stickers, however this is only their opinion.

 

Both the FIA and the FFCC agree that the wording of this law needs to be clarified, and we will keep you updated if and when this happens.

 

Our advice for now is to drive at the lower speed limits if you have GTM exceeding 3. 5t or a combination of vehicles with a GVM (which is the same as the maximum permitted weight) of over 3. 5t, and obtain the stickers, until such times as we can confirm the correct interpretation of the law. We will of course keep you updated!

 

So lets face it "CONFUSION ALL ROUND" So until they sort it why bother to get excited and have a relaxing holiday B)

 

Alan

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Chapmag, I feel that you are applying the law of the road in France, and to which all French registered vehicles must comply, to English vehicles. I feel that there is a degree of elasticity which means that, for example, one is entitled to take an English caravan to France without taking it to be separately registered. (Yet!!!)

 

Hi Drummond,

 

It is because of this "elasticity" that I am seeking clarification on the speed stickers. ;)

 

G.

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Could I suggest that a copy of the "use and construction" European ruling on this be carried by those that are traveling through Euro countries with a vehicle that is fully legal within it's registered country.

 

Up until very recently it was illegal for a motorcycle to travel through Spain with a trailer in tow for a Spanish registered motorcycle, But not for motorcycles registered elsewhere. This ruling was in general not understood by the Spanish police and many motorcyclist were stopped. In time a document was issued by the various motorcycle clubs though out Europe explaining the legal situation to the Spanish police in Spanish should one be stopped. Although it is now legal for the Spanish motorcyclist to tow a trailer it is still illegal for them to tow outside of daylight hours.

 

The same ruling will govern signage boards and speed stickers as these are not a legal requirement in the UK they are not a legal requirement on any other road in Europe. It should now be up to the various motoring and caravaning clubs to issue a definitive document in the relevant language for those travelers that require it.

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There are several large haulage companies around here that send trucks in to Europe on a regular basis.

I have asked several transport managers about them not displaying the max speed disks in France, and been told in no uncertain terms that because they are not needed to comply with British regulations we do not have to fit them for France.

Check it out for yourselves when you get to the docks. BRITISH REGISTERED TRUCKS DO NOT FIT MAX SPEED DISKS.

Slightly off subject. From 2011 all new UK registered cars will be fitted with day running lights. Some cars like Audi have them already

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Could I suggest that a copy of the "use and construction" European ruling on this be carried by those that are traveling through Euro countries with a vehicle that is fully legal within it's registered country.

 

Up until very recently it was illegal for a motorcycle to travel through Spain with a trailer in tow for a Spanish registered motorcycle, But not for motorcycles registered elsewhere. This ruling was in general not understood by the Spanish police and many motorcyclist were stopped. In time a document was issued by the various motorcycle clubs though out Europe explaining the legal situation to the Spanish police in Spanish should one be stopped. Although it is now legal for the Spanish motorcyclist to tow a trailer it is still illegal for them to tow outside of daylight hours.

 

The same ruling will govern signage boards and speed stickers as these are not a legal requirement in the UK they are not a legal requirement on any other road in Europe. It should now be up to the various motoring and caravaning clubs to issue a definitive document in the relevant language for those travelers that require it.

 

 

There are several large haulage companies around here that send trucks in to Europe on a regular basis.

I have asked several transport managers about them not displaying the max speed disks in France, and been told in no uncertain terms that because they are not needed to comply with British regulations we do not have to fit them for France.

Check it out for yourselves when you get to the docks. BRITISH REGISTERED TRUCKS DO NOT FIT MAX SPEED DISKS.

Slightly off subject. From 2011 all new UK registered cars will be fitted with day running lights. Some cars like Audi have them already

 

Two excellent posts giving seemingly factual information regarding the need (or not) to display Speed Stickers on UK registered vehicles.

 

Megladon, any chance of a link to the "use and construction" ruling?

 

Cheers,

 

G

Edited by chapmag

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In the case of the French speed limits these can only be enforced if the police are aware of the outfit weight which is why the stickers are required otherwise the police would have to stop the outfit merely to check if the limit applied or not. .

These speed stickers are required under the French Code de la Route and most of us are aware that French trucks have several on the rear. It appears the French Government see no reason why private vehicles falling into certain categories should be exempt. Hence all outfits, French or otherwise, operating in France, require stickers as there can be no exemption for foreign drivers in respect of speeding offences.

 

For those who are fitting the discs. ..... there is a position specified. ....lower left hand quarter of the trailer. ...80 to the left of 90 :DB)

 

 

Strange world. .

Those who want to travel at 100 kph in Germany are prepared to spend about £60 and some effort getting their outfit approved. ......to put a large 100 sticker on the back of the caravan.

Those who want to tour France spend hours discussing French road law trying to convince themselves they are exempt from putting two large stickers on their vans.

 

What will eventual harmonisation of traffic laws bring. ...French version?....German version?... Combination of both?

 

Answers on a 200 mm circular postcard please. ;)

 

Edit: Three posts have appeared whilst I was typing.

 

A link to the C & U notice referred to above would be appreciated.

 

As commercial vehicles are built to European standards these days most comply in any country but there are national derogations.

Although U. K. trucks do not require speed limit stickers in the U. K. and do not fit them for Europe, where most countries require them, there does not appear to be an exemption from the French requirement. Many non French trucks use small speed stickers with a red outer circle which do not conform to French requirements but appear to be tolerated in France.<br><br>Speed limits are not part of Construction & Use Regs and are imposed  nationally.   <br>

Edited by beejay

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The facts are that, Under European law (and whether one likes it or not)we live in it. The Euro law is that if a vehicle and it's signage is legal in it's registered country then it is legal in all member countries. It matters not in law if a member state makes laws unto it's own registered vehicles, It becomes law to all that the new speed limit is kept, But not law to all to signage their vehicles. It is true to say that the police will not know whether the driver of a vehicle should be questioned as to it's speed because it lacks the relevant signage, But the foreign vehicle will not have broken any Euro laws. The problem is with the new laws that a member Euro country make and how to implement it on foreign nationals without breaking the euro laws that they have signed up to. Yes it can and will be a problem for some and I suppose that for peace of mind one can simply comply, But the law is the law and without the signage foreign nationals are not outside of what is legal. There is a degree of lacking from the various governing bodies of Europe in educating the relevant enforcement agencies that there is a distinct difference between state law and Euro law and Euro law is that which all member countries must learn to live with, Otherwise there is no point to it.

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