Question For Tradetech

[carl]

Hi Tradetech or Arc systems

I have a problem with the heater in my 2004 Bailey Bordeaux. I picked the van up 3 weeks ago and the past 2 weekends have been having problems when i put the heater on 2kw. After being on for a few minutes it trips the MCB relay out regardless of any other appliances being on. I know not to have the kettle on or similar but it still trips when only itself is turned on. The heater works ok on gas or 1kw or 0. 5kw but never on 2kw. It would be easy just to set it on 1kw and turn up the stat, but the past 2 weekends it has been to cold for this setting and turning up causes tripping out in the middle of the night and my little pink bits turning blue {toes}.All the vents are open and a quick look inside the consumer unit shows no loose connections.

Thank in advance

Carl.

[RogerL]

As your 2004 Pageant should be under warranty for some time, take it back to the dealer - it's a fault and needs fixing under warranty.

[carl]

I am the second owner of the van and apparently Bailey warranty only applies to the first owners. The van will be going back to the dealers that i got it from if it is a problem i cannot put right myself. I just want to rule out the obvious before i take it in.

Thanks for your help anyway

Carl

[BrianI]

Hi Carl,

 

I had the same problem on my Pageant, which got progressively worse and would trip with only 1kw on. It was the 10amp MCB that was faulty. It was replaced under warranty but it took about 6 weeks to get one from Bailey. I got fed up of waiting so I tried to buy one myself but none of the four electrical distributers I tried had heard of the particular make that Bailey use - I just forget what make it is at the moment. Even the Bailey delaer does not stock them as spares - they have some other make but that would entail buying a complete consumer unit. I dont know why it is 10amps only when 2kw of heating takes 8. 3 amps and it also feeds the fridge and all the ring main sockets. However, I have looked at other caravans and they all seem to be the same. It emans you can't take full advantage of a 16amp site supply. The 6amp MCB feeds the water heater and the battery charger

 

Brian

[Frank.A]

Hi Brian,

 

Not all vans are equipped with the same supply modules,even when from the same stable.

 

Sterling,Abbey and Swift according to my handbook have 3 MCBs.

Sterling uses one make of module while the others use a second.

 

MCB 1 Sockets and Heating

MCB 2 Water Heater and Lights

MCB 3 Refridgerator and Charger

 

Bessacarr are different again.

 

MCB 1 Heating System ( presumably includes water heater)

MCB 2 Sockets

MCB 3 Lights,Refridgerator and Charger

 

Frank

[Guest mr_sheens]

easy 1. bailey are now retro fitting a 16amp breaker instead of a 10amp breaker. we have worked out that with the fridge and water heater on you are pulling about 9amps. this will stop the breaker tripping but be aware it gives you the opportunity to use more appliances. just be careful not to trip the site.

[carl]

easy 1. bailey are now retro fitting a 16amp breaker instead of a 10amp breaker. we have worked out that with the fridge and water heater on you are pulling about 9amps. this will stop the breaker tripping but be aware it gives you the opportunity to use more appliances. just be careful not to trip the site.

14740[/snapback]

Thanks mr sheens,dont mean to sound dangerous or dumb but would it be ok to put the heater connections to the outgoing side of the RCD and leave the fridge connected to the 10amp MCD. This is presuming there is no fault with the heater itself. Forgive my not understanding of electrics if this will not work.

Thanks

[PhilB]

Hi Carl,

 

I had the same problem on my Pageant, which got progressively worse and would trip with only 1kw on. It was the 10amp MCB that was faulty. It was replaced under warranty but it took about 6 weeks to get one from Bailey. I got fed up of waiting so I tried to buy one myself but none of the four electrical distributers I tried had heard of the particular make that Bailey use - I just forget what make it is at the moment. Even the Bailey delaer does not stock them as spares - they have some other make but that would entail buying a complete consumer unit. I dont know why it is 10amps only when 2kw of heating takes 8. 3 amps and it also feeds the fridge and all the ring main sockets. However, I have looked at other caravans and they all seem to be the same. It emans you can't take full advantage of a 16amp site supply. The 6amp MCB feeds the water heater and the battery charger

 

Brian

14731[/snapback]

 

I may be totally wrong here but aren't all MCB's and consumer units interchangeable ie wouldn't any make of MCB fit or do caravans have a none conforment design? I haven't looked at mine in that detail and haven't a clue on what they are rated at but I do know that the sockets & heater are on the same one and so far this year I haven't had a trip out even though I've got heater on full blast and had TV & microwave running - must remember to check the rating next time out.

Phil

[BrianI]

easy 1. bailey are now retro fitting a 16amp breaker instead of a 10amp breaker.

14740[/snapback]

 

Has anyone had their 10amp breaker uprated to 16amp under warranty from Bailey? This would seem to solve my problem.

 

Brian

[BrianI]

I may be totally wrong here but aren't all MCB's and consumer units interchangeable ie wouldn't any make of MCB fit or do caravans have a none conforment design?  Phil

14790[/snapback]

 

MCB's of different makes are different sizes and not interchangable between makes. I looked at several different makes and none would fit the unit supplied by Bailey

 

Brian

[Arc Systems]

The MCB is the most likely culprit and although they should be interchangeable between makes. ..in general they are least a poor fit or thy don't fit at all.

Why they fit a 10 amp is because a 10amp will take an overload for a time dependent on it's other rating which is A,B,C,or D, 'B' is the most common but I have seen a 'C' in this situation and causing the problem you are having although in this case it was probably down to being over sensitive from new. A simple check is to 'tap' the MCB with the 'hard plastic' handle of a thin screwdriver. .. all you are doing is making it vibrate and if it trips you have found the problem.

Another cause of this I did see once was the electrician who wired a new van, he had folded the bare wire over the insulation before connecting it to the MCB!!. This caused it to overheat on the 2kw setting of the fire and trip. ..I wonder if he still works as an sparky? idiot!

As for changing to 16amp it would depend if the wiring could take the extra load? and this would need qualified investigating first.

A 10amp 'B' is designed to take 1. 45 times it's rating for some considerable time, which means 14. 5 amps are on tap to cope with odd times and probably 12 amps for as long as an hour. A 'C' grade will take twice or more but only for a very short period, it is designed for starting currents of electric motors and not for domestic use. ..so why they are fitted in some caravans is strange to say the least!?.

It is of course possible that the heater is at fault and Steve might like to say what could cause it from this end

[BrianI]

Gary,

 

The problem is this.

 

There is a 10amp and 6amp MCB. The 6 amp feeds the water heater and the battery charger so no problem here. The 10 amp feeds the space heater, fridge and 13amp ring main sockets. So if you put the heater on 2kw, fridge on, TV on, you have just about used up your 10amp so you can't even plug in a low wattage kettle.

 

Like you, I thought all MCB's were interchangeable, but the ones fitted by Bailey are totally different to anything else.

 

As far as cabling goes, there is a 16amp cable into the consumer unit and three separate spurs coming out from the outlet side of the 10amp MCB so there should not be a problem.

 

Basically it means that if you are on a 16amp supply site, you can effectively only use 10amp, other than the water heater which is not on for a long time.

 

Some other manufacturers use a similar arrangement.

 

The only fault I can envisage in a heater is a direct earth fault when the MCB would trip immediately. The symptoms I had was the MCB tripping after a period of time, initially about one hour but got gradually worse and I think this was caused by the MCB running at, or near, its limit when the heating is on 2kw.

 

Since I changed mine I have only been out in relatively warm weather so have not needed it on 2kw for long, but going out next week so intend to run for long periods at 2kw to test it before my warranty runs out.

 

 

Brian

[Guest mr_sheens]

we have now changed approx half a dozen under warranty for similar problems. these breakers are being supplied by the consumer unit manufacturer, BCA

[Arc Systems]

The main thing is you have one 6amp and one 10amp breaker this equals 16amps and the rating in general of the hookup cable, so you cannot just upgrade the 10amp to 16 amps because that would be a potential total of 24 amps. Of course if the site breaker is 16amps you could make the argument that the total is still restricted within the rating of the cable BUT not always.

No manufacturer should allow the potential for his wiring system to fall outside the regulations and although there is an allowance for the fact both breakers will almost never be fully loaded at the same time, this is used up by the fact both 'B' rated breakers have an overload rating of 1. 45 giving a total of 23. 2amp for a length of time.

I have asked the question and it appears this is a known fault on Bailey caravans and if under warranty the MCB will be replaced but only with another 10amp breaker. On my previous post I mentioned this fault, that van I now know was a Bailey and indeed it is a strange breaker and as far as I know only available from them.

On a personal note I have the same setup in our van although different make and quite happily run the fire on 1kw and the kettle on 2kw, plus other bits and bobs at the same time, which is 13amps+ from a 10amp breaker?? If I overload it further with the fire on full it trips in about 20 seconds.

[carl]

Thanks to all your replies

As asked above by Brian i contacted Bailey today and told them the problem i was having and was told that they have uprated their 10amp relay to 16amp. Without any questions or disagreements they asked me my name and address and told me they will send me one in the post first thing tomorrow. Top class service and result and again thanks for all your replies especially a big thanks to John at Bailey Caravans Bristol.

[BrianI]

Hi Carl,

 

Have merged your reply into here. Useful to know that. Just out of interest, what is the make of the existing 10amp breaker?

I wonder why it took my dealer six weeks to obtain a replacement breaker for me last year. I was told this was Bailey normal delivery time and they could do nothing about it.

 

Brian

[carl]

Hi Carl,

 

Have merged your reply into here. Useful to know that. Just out of interest, what is the make of the existing 10amp breaker?

I wonder why it took my dealer six weeks to obtain a replacement breaker for me last year. I was told this was Bailey normal deleiver time and they could do nothing about it.

 

Brian

15047[/snapback]

I dont have the van at home it has actually been taken in for the heater to be checked out. I will let you know when i get the van back in a couple of days. But it will be interesing to see what the dealers come up with is wrong with it.

[BrianI]

Hi Carl,

 

Got my caravan out of storage yesterday. The make of breaker that gave me a problem is F & S. Have not been able to find any electrical distributor who sells them other than Bailey. Have also not been able to find out details of the company by seaching on google either.

 

Brian

[Arc Systems]

No such make according to my supplier, although he added only three or four factories make all the breakers in Europe!!. Mr Sheen says it is supplied by BCA who make the box?. It's a year since I saw one but I seem to remember it is about 1. 5 times normal width? can you take a picture??

[BrianI]

Gary,

 

That was the sort of response I was getting last year when looking for a replacement -"Been in the business for 30 years and not seen one like that. ..etc"

 

I have looked at other Baileys and they use the same breaker - F & S although i have not checked the series 5 pageants.

 

Photo attached for your perusal (if it works!)

 

 

 

Brian

[Arc Systems]

Great picture Brian. .'a picture paints a thousand words', they are 'C' grade but why?? what mains electric motors have you in your caravan???.

I am sure you know but these breakers are not designed for the purpose they are being used for. ..they are designed to take a heavy overload for several seconds while a motor starts from rest and takes up it's load, a lathe perhaps or a big air compressor. Anyone in doubt, have a look at the MCB's in the consumer unit at home, how many of them are 'C' grade. ..NONE. ..they are all 'B'

[BrianI]

Thanks Gary,

 

I was not aware of that. This muddies the waters even more. There must be thousands of these fitted in Bailey caravans. Certainly all 2003 and 2004 Pageant models have them.

 

Can you point me to a spec on MCB's which gives their grading and use and maybe I will take this up with Bailey.

 

Brian

[Arc Systems]

Morning Brian, well it was??

I have misinformed you a little as far as the grading is concerned as the B & C grades will work the same normally, it's the ultimate current surge allowance that is different.

B & C10's will take an overload totalling 11. 3 amps for more than an hour and 14. 5 amps for less than an hour. The B will trip in more than 0. 1 seconds with an overload totalling 30amps and less than 0. 1 seconds at 50 amps. The C grade only varies on this last bit where by it will take 50 and 100 within these times.

So these are upper and lower limits for specification purposes and the true figure in operation one supposes will be an average of these figures. ..say 13. 2 amps for 30 to 40 minutes whether it is a B or C grade. At the upper limits the C will last say a second longer which is irrelevant as far as this problem is concerned.

Nevertheless if you add the 6 amp breaker and its limits of 6. 78 to 8. 7 amps to the 10 you are using the 16 amp hookup cable to a limit of something like 21 amps.

To substitute a 16 amp for the 10 gives a total possible over current of between 18. 1 and 23. 2 or using the same average, 19. 1 amp from this breaker alone for about half an hour and with the 6, the total possible is now about 27 amps. ..from a 16 amp cable!!!

Given a 16 amp breaker on the hookup post the most you can get is going to be the 19. 1 for any length of time but not all hookup breakers are 16 amp!. Further a 16 amp hookup cable is made of 1. 5mm flex. ..or should be?, many are less although sold as 16amp.

which is what I said in the first place. ..changing to a 16amp breaker is not a solution

[carl]

Hi Brian,

I received my relay in the post this morning from Baileys and it is as you said made by F&S and is a c15. Hoping to fit it this weekend and all being well should solve the problem. By the way the heater checked out ok at the dealers.

Thanks for everybodys help and replies

Carl.

[carl]

Hi Brian,

I received my relay in the post this morning from Baileys and it is as you said made by F&S and is a c15. Hoping to fit it this weekend and all being well should solve the problem. By the way the heater checked out ok at the dealers.

                  Thanks for everybodys help and replies

                                      Carl.

15590[/snapback]

Fitted the new 15amp relay at weekend,and the heater now works fine. I even noticed i can boil a full kettle of water with a 2kw kettle with the heater on 2kw no problems. It seems i have sorted it out once and for all with the help from this forum and co-operation of John at Bailey caravns.

Thanks again everybody involved

Carl.