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Installing Lighting


kjb

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I am installing 240v lights in my caravan is it O. K. to use 3core flexible cable? or is there something else I should be useing. I will be fusing at correct rating.

Thanks for any advice.

Ken.

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3 core multi-stranded flexible cable is the correct stuff to use as it will be subjected to movement and vibration when the caravan is on the road. The grey flat "twin and earth" cable is not advised.

 

The only thing you will have to be careful of is that the cross section area of the cable is large enough to take your proposed current. If you are unsure of this it is best to err on the side of caution and use larger rather than smaller.

 

Experts on here will probably be able to give you the correct size for any given current.

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Thanks X-Bob,

I am only fitting 2--20 watt halogen light fittings so the current rating is very small, probably it would be O. K. to use 1. 5 mm 3 core flexible cable.

Are there any experts who could confirm this please?

P. S. I am a retired Electrician but had no experience in caravan installations.

Ken. :)

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KJB, what you are proposing is perfectly accepatble, as an ex sparky you will know that 240 v is the same, whether in a van or in the home. The only extra precautions to take are making sure the cable is not run too tight, due to possible movement of the structures in the van whilst towing, it is clipped out of the way, and its terminated and fused correctly, with a little more emphasis on sealing entry and exit points against water ingress.

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OVERVEIW of Part 'P'

From January 2005, domestic electrical installations have come within the scope of the Building Regulations

From now on, all new domestic electrical installations, together with specific alterations and additions to current installations, will have to be inspected and comply with strict electrical safety performance standards.

 

The standards will cover the design, installation, inspection and testing of domestic electrical work and the provision of information.

 

The electrical safety requirement in the new Part P of the Building Regulations is simply that:

 

"Fixed electrical installations in dwellings shall be suitably designed, installed, inspected and tested so as to provide reasonable protection against their being the source of a fire or a cause of injury to persons†(Includes damage to property)

 

All proposed electrical installation work in dwellings will need to be notified to a building control body before work commences, unless:

 

The proposed work is to be undertaken by a prescribed competent person (an individual or a firm) authorized to self-certify compliance on completion of the work, or the proposed work is minor, and it is not in a kitchen or in an area classified as a special installation or location

 

The new P regs cannot apply to caravans, as they do not fall under the auspicies of Building Regs.

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Quote; "The new P regs cannot apply to caravans, as they do not fall under the auspicies of Building Regs."

 

Yes but it includes outbuilding, garages, sheds etc. ..basically anything connected to the house consumer unit, (fuse box). So if you hook the caravan up to your house or more important to a hook up on site which do come under the act. ..you can see where I am going?? but I don't know the answer

 

Anyway Halogen 20w bulbs, are these going to run though a 12 volt transformer from a mains supply or are they direct 240 volt?. The difference is 2x20w@240v =0. 17amps. .nothing. 2x20w@12v =3. 3amps. .not so little

gary1s.gif

 

Arc Systems are specialist Carver caravan product repairers, committed to providing a comprehensive service as well as spare parts for these popular heaters.

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Arc Systems, yes I can see where you are coming from, but, hooking your van up to a socket, located inside or outside your house does not make it a fixed part of the house mains system, as in permanent fixture, it is basically the same as plugging in a, ,,,,lawnmower, pressure washer etc.

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Thanks for all of your advice,my main concern was that wiring in flex is not normally accepted in house installations and certainly running cables through partitions. the lights are mains voltage with no transformer so current drawn is negligable. Being out of the trade for 10 years the 15th edition of IEE regs. is my limit so I really needed to know current practices.

Thanks again for everyones help

Ken. :P

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OVERVEIW of Part 'P'

The proposed work is to be undertaken by a prescribed competent person (an individual or a firm) authorized to self-certify compliance on completion of the work, or the proposed work is minor, and it is not in a kitchen or in an area classified as a special installation or location

11414[/snapback]

 

Is there a definition anywhere in the regs as to what constitutes a "competent person"? As a qualified sparky KJB, are you not a competent person?

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Is there a definition anywhere in the regs as to what constitutes a "competent person"? As a qualified sparky KJB, are you not a competent person?

11460[/snapback]

 

Have a look at :- http://www. partp. co. uk/default. asp it is very informative. :rolleyes:

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"The proposed work is to be undertaken by a prescribed competent person authorised to self-certify compliance on completion of the work"

 

That's what it says, it is no longer enough to hold the electricians ticket to current regs otherwise you need to get someone to check your work afterwards. No you now need a ticket to say you can do the work and another to sign it off!!

A competent person therefore holds both tickets

 

 

"or the proposed work is minor, and it is not in a kitchen or in an area classified as a special installation or location"

 

I understand 'minor' to mean changing light switches and plug socket fronts.

 

As for caravans I have asked the question and THEY DO come under part 'P' and the rules very much apply. .. I have asked for a copy of the caravan specific so I can read though how it effects me and you :angry:

gary1s.gif

 

Arc Systems are specialist Carver caravan product repairers, committed to providing a comprehensive service as well as spare parts for these popular heaters.

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I will be interested in your view after reading the regs, Arc Systems. I have read through them, briefly, and as far as I understand, and may very well be wrong, the rules do apply to static caravans and the large mobile homes such as found on home park sites, but it does not seem to apply to our type of caravan, as it is not a permanent home.

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Fporgive me for posting in such terms outside the Basement, but since I have a B. Sc. Degree in Electrical Engineering, am a Chartered Engineer and a member of the IEE (and further have worked in the industry for 21 years, including 5000V live working and 3-phase systems) I consider Part P complete and utter B0110cks.

 

I have read the new guidance in detail and it is the product of a bunch of mouth-breathing, @nal-retentive bureaucrats with no knowledge of the real world of electrical engineering. There are many highly competent engineers out there who will be put to a great deal of unjustified trouble and expense by this ill-considered piece of legislation.

 

Having said this, I will not comment further on this issue.

 

JAF.

 

PS if anyone doubts my qualifications, send me a personal message and I will happily fax you copies of my qualifications certificates.

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Part P of the building regulations as issued by John Prescott -all 44 pages. If its part of the Building regulations I don't see how it can be applied to caravans, but nevertheless it would be good practice to follow the guidlines.

 

http://www. odpm. gov. uk/stellent/groups/odp. ..breg_029960. pdf

 

 

Brian

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Part P of the building regulations as issued by John Prescott -all 44 pages. If its part of the Building regulations I don't see how it can be applied to caravans, but nevertheless it would be good practice to follow the guidlines.

 

http://www. odpm. gov. uk/stellent/groups/odp. ..breg_029960. pdf

Brian

11561[/snapback]

 

Going against my previous assertion - yes, it IS good practice. No objectuion to that . ...

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I too agree that good practise should be followed BUT I also wondered about this legislation and thought:-

 

1/- Genuine safety concerns aroused due to the number of people killed every year by 'suspect' wiring = 10. So again I agree that is ten too many BUT how many people killed on the roads in a year?

 

2/- The industry has jumped on the band wagon as a way of earning more cash.

 

Whilst I am not an electrical engineer I am (or was - now retired) a building contractor who was responsible for his work so always ensured that it was up to standards.

 

As for what the DIY man does - how are they going to police it?

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I believe this to just another stealth tax on behalf of the Govt, having to pay to take a further exam to prove what one has already proven by taking the current IEE test, but the second test is just to give one the paper authority to certify work. It is, in my view totally unnecessary legislation aimed at stopping anyone form doing anything themselves, and it still wont stop people being electrocuted.

As for the DIY aspect, with the harmonisation of colours for wiring, I can forsee a time in the not too distant future when if you go to sell your house, you will have to provide an up to date certificate of electrical inspection, gas inspection, structural survey etc etc. All sly ways of making the Government more money without admitting to raising taxes.

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Whilst I am not an electrical engineer I am (or was - now retired) a building contractor who was responsible for his work so always ensured that it was up to standards.

 

As for what the DIY man does - how are they going to police it?

11586[/snapback]

I am a qualified Electrical Engineer and part of my duties include isolating a 715Kilovolt supply (that’s about 3,000 times the voltage in the average domestic dwelling!) I regularly have to authorise others to work on this and other high voltage equipment, and I do it perfectly legally.

 

However as I understand the new regulations, I am not now allowed to repair or add to a 240Volt circuit in my own house, despite the fact that I've rewired numerous houses since the early 1970s, again perfectly legally, and to the appropriate safety regulations of the time.

 

As for policing these new regulations - I'm sure our government will find that another level of bureaucracy will solve that little problem for us!

 

I wonder if I'm still allowed to change a blown car headlamp bulb? It's a funny old world we live in. ..

Gordon.

Fourwinds Hurricane 31D Motorhome. Also MGTF135 1. 8i Roadster (fun) & Volvo V70 3.2Ltr LPG (everyday car)
Unless otherwise stated, my posts will be my personal thoughts and have the same standing as any other member of Caravan and Motorhome Talk.

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To eightofseven, Beacon and Gordon. ..I fully agree. ..but how else do you stop the 'kitchen' fitters???. I am of the opinion that 'competence' is the ability to do a job that does not cause resultant injury of any sort?.

My lads an electrician just coming out of college. .his attitude to part P is interesting in as much as he says plumbers with their Corgi are now considered the elite of building trades. ..while before sparky's were. ..lets see who's on top now??. Interesting point I thought as this is all led by the electrical industry. .but just wait and see what Corgi come up with. ..it's in the pipeline. Who said it was only Government that was. .'Jobs for the boys'

As for 'policing' the act. ..just watch the Insurance company's get their teeth into it!!

gary1s.gif

 

Arc Systems are specialist Carver caravan product repairers, committed to providing a comprehensive service as well as spare parts for these popular heaters.

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In answer to X-Bob as to whether I am a competent person, according to the latest legislation apparently not. My history of employement started with a 5 year indentured apprentiship with the local supply authority attending day release at the local tech. college passing part b and c City and Guilds certificate.

This was sufficient at that time to call myself a an Electrician. At the end of my working life I was employed as an M and E Supt. inthe water industry controlling a workforce of 10 electricians and technicians responsible for repairs,servicing and supervising installations carried out by outside contractors.

During the 20 years in this post I attended numerous courses including H. V. switching which I was authorised to carry out.

My problem is if I need an additional 13amp socket in my kitchen am I considered competent to carry out this work? or do I need to have it inspected by someone :rolleyes: trained as wireman?

Ken.

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No you are not qualified and just shows how stupid this act is. ..of course you are highly qualified and perfectly 'component' to carry out this work and much more besides.

Some time ago the government decided with good cause to licence truck operators and issued 'O' licences to those already doing the job much the same as those already driving cars at the time were issued with licences when that law was passed. This was called 'Granddad rights' and for the most part worked well, unfortunately particularly with the truck operators many cowboys got a licence first and only lost it after proving how bad they were!!!, nevertheless 99. 9% continued perfectly safely with the minimum disruption.

Sadly this is no longer the case and because of this, you are deemed to know less than my young lad fresh out of college. ..how gauling is that :angry:

gary1s.gif

 

Arc Systems are specialist Carver caravan product repairers, committed to providing a comprehensive service as well as spare parts for these popular heaters.

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Why do you have pay ridiculously high fees to become a competant person. I am a JIB timed served electrcian of 25 years that should be the only proof that is needed. A much fairer system would be to have a national register of electricians which can be joined by showing proof of competancy for a annual nominal fee.

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Embarking on thin ice, maybe, but the regulations that the Govt have brought in, MUST mean more money for them to waste on other things like wars in Iraq, ,,,or, they are trying to tell fully qualified tradesmen in this country that the IEE and JIB quals are just not good enough, and that we NEED to allow more immigrants into the country, which the Govt will fund to get the relevant quals, and be able to do the jobs of those who feel it totally wrong to have to pay out to reaffirm their quals.

It is an affront to the good and proud workmen who take great care in their work to be told that they now need to prove, not once by passing the exams they have already done, but twice, AND have to pay a high price to prove what they have already done.

I agree with Arc Systems, that the "bodger" needs to be routed out, but this legislation does nothing to stop these people, as CORGI has not stopped rogue gas fitters.

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