No refund - is it legal?

[Unclemort54]

I’ve noticed that since the outbreak of the pandemic many private sites have rewritten their terms and conditions to include a no refund section which is applicable even if they themselves cancel the booking. This it seems includes when they cancel because of restrictions placed upon them, for example by the government. Does anyone know if this actually takes precedence over the consumer rights act. Does the contract that one creates with a site override the act? There is usually the option to rearrange at a later date, usually within 12 months, however this may not always be possible.

 

[Martin]

My experience has been the exact opposite, sites being very flexible when it came to coronavirus. Even the big booking engines like Pitch-up were allowing deposit transfers related to COVID19.

 

However, as is life, people then abuse this and cancel with the excuse of - you guessed it "I have tested positive can I cancel" so I have empathy with sites in picking out the genuine with the any excuse makers. 

 

Without naming and shaming if you can paste the T&C's you refer to into the topic it may enlighten us more?

[Pheasant]

1 hour ago, Unclemort54 said:

I’ve noticed that since the outbreak of the pandemic many private sites have rewritten their terms and conditions to include a no refund section which is applicable even if they themselves cancel the booking. This it seems includes when they cancel because of restrictions placed upon them, for example by the government. Does anyone know if this actually takes precedence over the consumer rights act. Does the contract that one creates with a site override the act? There is usually the option to rearrange at a later date, usually within 12 months, however this may not always be possible.

 

I do agree from my experience what you say is true,no refunds for any reason,I haven’t put it to the test yet!so can’t comment further.

Booking online i often see ,by proceeding you agree to our terms and conditions!  Read them and it says,no refunds!

 

[Unclemort54]

Here’s an example. My fundamental question though, is does a sites t&c’s override the consumer rights act. 
I remember during lockdowns that this was a ‘live’ nation wide topic, although mostly concerning itself with some large holiday companies and airlines.

 

“Our right to cancel
There are limited circumstances in which we may need to cancel your holiday. We have the right to cancel your holiday, or any unused days, if the law prevents you visiting or staying with us. We also have the right to cancel your holiday, or any unused days, if Government guidance means that you should not visit or stay with us, even if the law still allows you to.

Xxxxxxxx Caravan Park shall not be held liable for failure or delay in the performance of its obligations under this Contract, if such performance is delayed or hindered by the occurrence of an unforeseeable act or event which is beyond the reasonable control of either party ("Force Majeure Events").

Acts or events constituting Force Majeure Events shall include, but not limited to Act of God, government intervention, directives or policies, restriction of movement, terrorist activities.

If affected by a Force Majeure Event, the Xxxxxxxx park shall notify the guest as soon as soon as reasonably practicable after commencement of a Force Majeure Event.

The remedy for a Force Majeure event will be for Xxxxxxxx Caravan Park to permit transfer of any payments made for the affected visit to another date within one year of the end of the Force Majeure event, Subject to availability & the application of any minimum stay requirements for the selected dates, the cost of the new visit shall be at the rates prevailing for the rescheduled visit, not the original booking”.

[Silversurf]

I suppose it goes like this, a contract is drawn up between two parties, both parties read and agree to the contracts contents and without duress, sign as such.

 

Most contracts have most of the details to be agreed to in reasonably sized and easy to understand text, they also have at the bottom of the page or on another page, what is sometimes called the ' small print ' ( though not always small ) which also forms part of the contract that has been signed by both parties.

 

The sticky bit is when something raises its head, folk go on about there being nothing pertaining to the ' something ' in the contract, which then gets pointed out to them in the small print.

 

The comment then goes something like " It's not fair it being in the small print" and they have to be reminded that they signed that they understood all of the contract, even though they did  not read and fully understand the contract.

 

There are many instances of this on CT from static vans to camping / van equipment etc.

 

Read and understand, if you don't understand then ask, but don't accept the contract until you are 100% sure of what it entails.

[Lutz]

30 minutes ago, Silversurf said:

I suppose it goes like this, a contract is drawn up between two parties, both parties read and agree to the contracts contents and without duress, sign as such.

 

Most contracts have most of the details to be agreed to in reasonably sized and easy to understand text, they also have at the bottom of the page or on another page, what is sometimes called the ' small print ' ( though not always small ) which also forms part of the contract that has been signed by both parties.

 

The sticky bit is when something raises its head, folk go on about there being nothing pertaining to the ' something ' in the contract, which then gets pointed out to them in the small print.

 

The comment then goes something like " It's not fair it being in the small print" and they have to be reminded that they signed that they understood all of the contract, even though they did  not read and fully understand the contract.

 

There are many instances of this on CT from static vans to camping / van equipment etc.

 

Read and understand, if you don't understand then ask, but don't accept the contract until you are 100% sure of what it entails.

 

That doesn't really answer the OP's question, though. I think he wants to know whether consumer rights override anything that is written in the contract. In other words, whether such a condition in a contract is null and void if it contradicts other legally guaranteed rights.

[Legal Eagle]

Contract and tort law can be deep and complex.

CRA 2015 allows for contractual conditions providing the terms are fair and reasonable. The whole essence of protection under the CRA 2015 is the sales or service contract that you have with the provider. If the terms are fair and reasonable and the goods or service provided are as stated and expected you have no argument.

In general, the T&Cs the hospitality industry have amended are fair and reasonable in light of the pandemic lock down consequences experienced across the UK by businesses. Forced cancellation as described in the T&Cs quoted are now  offering alternative dates or vouchers as the refund instead of money back. The enforcement authority for the CRA 2015 is local authority Trading Standards. If you can pin them down, ask their view.

The bottom line is that if you go ahead and make a booking under those T&Cs you are accepting them. As with any non-negotiable contract, if you don't like the terms don't enter into it. You could look at taking out holiday insurance for any unrecoverable losses in the event of a cancellation. Many travel insurances seem to have been amended, positively, with forced cancellations in mind.

Edited August 14, 2022 by Legal Eagle

[klyne]

I does seem that many sites don't think that any offer of goodwill is a benefit to them? We recently lost a booking for which we had paid in advance worth £175. We were a day away from going to Wells Touring Park and I tested positive for COVID. I am pretty sure they didn't want me there either!!! As one never knows how COVID will turn out we decided to go home. Fortunately, despite being pretty grotty for three weeks I was OK. Unfortunately these sites have you over a barrel because not only are you required to pay a deposit you also have to pay the balance four weeks before you arrive.  At least it has taught me a lesson and that is not to pay so far in advance. The site in question and others we went to under the same conditions had free space so in future it will be days ahead rather than weeks and months.

 

David 

[Steamdrivenandy]

40 minutes ago, klyne said:

I does seem that many sites don't think that any offer of goodwill is a benefit to them? We recently lost a booking for which we had paid in advance worth £175. We were a day away from going to Wells Touring Park and I tested positive for COVID. I am pretty sure they didn't want me there either!!! As one never knows how COVID will turn out we decided to go home. Fortunately, despite being pretty grotty for three weeks I was OK. Unfortunately these sites have you over a barrel because not only are you required to pay a deposit you also have to pay the balance four weeks before you arrive.  At least it has taught me a lesson and that is not to pay so far in advance. The site in question and others we went to under the same conditions had free space so in future it will be days ahead rather than weeks and months.

 

David 

 

Many sites that won't refund cancellations offer insurance to cover such situations. Of course they get a kick back from the insurance company for any business they send their way. It all seems intensely money grabbing to me. With the additional benefit to the site that they may end up reselling the pitch whilst keeping the original booker's payment.

 

We have been in such a predicament recently, with a site requiring full payment 7 days before arrival. There is a family funeral due but the hospital haven't released the body yet, so a funeral date can't be set.  Our booking is for next weekend. The site pointed out that we had opted for cancellation cover, so it would be OK if we paid the balance and then couldn't go.

[klyne]

2 hours ago, Steamdrivenandy said:

 

Many sites that won't refund cancellations offer insurance to cover such situations. Of course they get a kick back from the insurance company for any business they send their way. It all seems intensely money grabbing to me. With the additional benefit to the site that they may end up reselling the pitch whilst keeping the original booker's payment.

 

We have been in such a predicament recently, with a site requiring full payment 7 days before arrival. There is a family funeral due but the hospital haven't released the body yet, so a funeral date can't be set.  Our booking is for next weekend. The site pointed out that we had opted for cancellation cover, so it would be OK if we paid the balance and then couldn't go.

We once went to the IOW and it is quite common over there for them to offer a discounted ferry fare. So when you combine the two it is a fair amount of money. However they did offer insurance which was a reasonable £15. Unfortunately the site I mentioned didn't offer any insurance! Maybe something for me to think about for the future?

 

David

[Martin]

11 hours ago, klyne said:

I does seem that many sites don't think that any offer of goodwill is a benefit to them? We recently lost a booking for which we had paid in advance worth £175. We were a day away from going to Wells Touring Park and I tested positive for COVID. I am pretty sure they didn't want me there either!!! As one never knows how COVID will turn out we decided to go home. Fortunately, despite being pretty grotty for three weeks I was OK. Unfortunately these sites have you over a barrel because not only are you required to pay a deposit you also have to pay the balance four weeks before you arrive.  At least it has taught me a lesson and that is not to pay so far in advance. The site in question and others we went to under the same conditions had free space so in future it will be days ahead rather than weeks and months.

Two sides to every story - from many private sites perspective they would like nothing more than to take bookings and rely on both parties honouring that booking, however so many people don't turn up or cancel last minute leaving a site out of pocket and no opportunity to market that pitch. So, instead sites have followed many other industries in the leisure sector and when booking usually have a non refundable deposit and balance due within x days of arrival which also becomes non refundable.

 

Smaller site in particular rely on pitch sales and cannot afford to just accept no-shows or last minute cancelation so I think its perfectly reasonable to have a window where you are expected to commit - my view is 2 weeks is about right but I know many sites can be quite a bit longer.

 

I feel for the hospitality sector with recent media coverage over table bookings for food where its all to often people book and then don't show leaving the owners out of pocket and empty tables. 

 

I suspect the sites that do offer insurance as a bolt-on ONLY do so as they get a kick back from it (as Andy also points out)!! Its much better IMO to organise your own insurance or just accept the risk if you are happy to do so. 

 

One final note, I do think its better if a site allow you to move a booking BUT it has to be limited in time and during a quiet period for the site so they do not lose out yet again on a cancelled booking/income as a result of something that was not of their doing. 

 

I note in the T&C's on the site you quote, they say:

Please read terms and conditions, Wells Touring Park would advise to have holiday insurance

 

[WispMan]

I am in  full agreement with Martin.  I was in business for many years and you cannot keep standing losses of last minute cancellations. 

It is why we have year round holiday insurance 

[Wildwood]

I would say that the terms would not get past the Unfair Contract Terms Act. Essentially the site provides a contract for them to provide you with a pitch and the advertised amenities and if they cannot or will not full fill that contract you are entitled to a refund if the pitch is not provided and probably a discount if amenities are not available. Possibly some common sense on the amenities part is needed, but a complete cancelation means your money back. 

[joanie]

if you thought it was fair when you booked the site , I wouldn't think that you  have any comeback.

[Pheasant]

8 hours ago, WispMan said:

I am in  full agreement with Martin.  I was in business for many years and you cannot keep standing losses of last minute cancellations. 

It is why we have year round holiday insurance 

Wispy!i too was in business in the retail service industry,I too took deposits and had cancellations,BUT!  If you want good customer relations,and return business,I strongly believe you have to be reasonable and sympathetic in certain circumstances, some campsites I have been on this year are very rigid with their so called. T/C and do not deserve any further business!IMO.

[WispMan]

Fine but do we know how much business and turnover they lost because of these cancellations? 

It could have been significant. 

Vote with your feet but they will have good reasons for their T's &  C's. 

Over 20 years of business I lost a total of £1,500 by very carefully vetting my customers and treating them with respect but never letting anyone owe me too much.  I am now Life President of their Trade Association. 

I used to tell them that not even the Queen would get credit from me!! 

[BrianE]

Selective Business Practices.

T&C's often quoted when it suits but when the same T&C's relate to Campsite Rules regarding Noise, Anti Social Behaviour etc etc the same diligence is somewhat missing in my experience even when reported.

Refusing a Deposit refund is one thing but refusing Balance Payment is in my opinion unacceptable.

It is being judgemental of people who they think are not being genuine as to their reason for cancelling.

Campsites who insist on Full Payment prior to arrival are best avoided, we are all free to take our business elsewhere.

[klyne]

12 hours ago, Martin said:

Two sides to every story - from many private sites perspective they would like nothing more than to take bookings and rely on both parties honouring that booking, however so many people don't turn up or cancel last minute leaving a site out of pocket and no opportunity to market that pitch. So, instead sites have followed many other industries in the leisure sector and when booking usually have a non refundable deposit and balance due within x days of arrival which also becomes non refundable.

 

Smaller site in particular rely on pitch sales and cannot afford to just accept no-shows or last minute cancelation so I think its perfectly reasonable to have a window where you are expected to commit - my view is 2 weeks is about right but I know many sites can be quite a bit longer.

 

I feel for the hospitality sector with recent media coverage over table bookings for food where its all to often people book and then don't show leaving the owners out of pocket and empty tables. 

 

I suspect the sites that do offer insurance as a bolt-on ONLY do so as they get a kick back from it (as Andy also points out)!! Its much better IMO to organise your own insurance or just accept the risk if you are happy to do so. 

 

One final note, I do think its better if a site allow you to move a booking BUT it has to be limited in time and during a quiet period for the site so they do not lose out yet again on a cancelled booking/income as a result of something that was not of their doing. 

 

I note in the T&C's on the site you quote, they say:

Please read terms and conditions, Wells Touring Park would advise to have holiday insurance

 

I think we are going a little too deeply into this.  I was perfectly aware of the T&C's when booking and I appreciate that I am not entitled to anything and the campsite has done nothing wrong, that is not what I am suggesting. I judge businesses on how they react and deal with me.    From a business point of view you could calculate that by me not staying on site I they would have saved about £25 worth of electricity which I did not use, there would have been a saving because I wasn't using the toilets and water plus any waste disposal. So a canny business would recognise such things, so a goodwill gesture of one night site fees as a deposit on a future stay would have been zero sum cost to the site. Perhaps wrong to be harsh on one site so I would apply my thoughts to all sites that have the same T&C's. Maybe it's more complicated than that?

 

David

[Martin]

10 hours ago, BrianE said:

Campsites who insist on Full Payment prior to arrival are best avoided, we are all free to take our business elsewhere.

But its very common practice to book simply because it's what the market (aka we) demand - people like to book and secure a pitch. I think you are being really harsh on many sites particularly those husband and wife teams who rely on incomes from their site and every single pitch counts and last minute cancelations hurt. 

You could instead either choose to book when you want to stay (same day/night before) or just arrange annual insurance. I suspect 'elsewhere' will be the same (pay-up), and if not yet soon will be!

 

The problem is that people just push boundaries all the time and at the drop of a hat cancel because its raining, because its windy, because they found somewhere better (and one site was just a reserve!) because they have changed their mind plus a whole host of other unreasonable excuses that are not the sites fault. The genuine reasons tend to be a tiny percentage, even then you cant help doubting are they genuine or is it just someone who knows the right things to say!!

 

The large booking engines also have a major role here,  Pitch-up (as an example) do much of this work for sites where they take the deposit (their commission) and the site then takes the balance payment - so when you cancel and scream foul at the sites they would stand to get nothing whatsoever because they did not even get the deposit.  Sites can choose how long they want you to pay up in advance OR they can opt for pay on arrival. Pay on arrival cancellations are massive because there is no commitment and folks happily lose their deposit whereas pay in advance adds a level of commitment from the booker and security for the site - is that really wrong or is that actually fair?

 

10 hours ago, klyne said:

From a business point of view you could calculate that by me not staying on site I they would have saved about £25 worth of electricity which I did not use, there would have been a saving because I wasn't using the toilets and water plus any waste disposal. So a canny business would recognise such things, so a goodwill gesture of one night site fees as a deposit on a future stay would have been zero sum cost to the site. Perhaps wrong to be harsh on one site so I would apply my thoughts to all sites that have the same T&C's. Maybe it's more complicated than that?

The complication is how you establish who is genuine and who is just unreasonable so unfortunately blanket rules are put in place and sometimes the genuine feel aggrieved. How do you expect small sites to establish if someone is genuine?

 

I have found many smaller sites are very flexible when some notice is given and usually will allow you to move the booking - it all depends how much notice so that site can attempt to re-market that pitch and not lose money. If they do re-sell the pitch it seems only right they should then refund you - thats where its a very grey area and you rely on someone's integrity! So yes, complicated.

[Wildwood]

The problem is that many people do not reed the terms which are often long and on another page. Quite simply if a business cannot or will not complete a contract due to no fault of the customer,  then they must return the money they have received with no ifs or buts in the conditions affecting this.  That is apart from the appalling customer service involved in keeping the lot. 

Possibly a lot depends on the sums involved involved as to what you can do but at least give them a roasting on Trip Advisor and any other sites you  can find. 

[klyne]

8 hours ago, Wildwood said:

Possibly a lot depends on the sums involved involved as to what you can do but at least give them a roasting on Trip Advisor and any other sites you  can find. 

 

I would not be in my nature to do that and in these circumstances I think it would be unfair. The T&C's are clear and as I couldn't make it I lost £175. My argument is that sites like this are not really encouraging people to revisit by their rules. They are probably content with my £175 and probably by the law of averages they know full well that many people only visit a site once so what is the point in trying to offer anything in the way of goodwill?  Perhaps their fingers have been burnt in the past and that has framed the way they set out their rules. I just wonder how many people in the pandemic have experienced the same issue?  At some point they have to accept peoples word. Short of me dropping by on the way home to show them my positive COVID test, which I imagine they wouldn't have been keen on, what else could I do?

 

David

[macafee2]

1 hour ago, klyne said:

 

I would not be in my nature to do that and in these circumstances I think it would be unfair. The T&C's are clear and as I couldn't make it I lost £175. My argument is that sites like this are not really encouraging people to revisit by their rules. They are probably content with my £175 and probably by the law of averages they know full well that many people only visit a site once so what is the point in trying to offer anything in the way of goodwill?  Perhaps their fingers have been burnt in the past and that has framed the way they set out their rules. I just wonder how many people in the pandemic have experienced the same issue?  At some point they have to accept peoples word. Short of me dropping by on the way home to show them my positive COVID test, which I imagine they wouldn't have been keen on, what else could I do?

 

David

You dont have to give them a roasting, just give them an accurate review.

macafee2

[Unclemort54]

Going back to my original post - when the site owner cancels.

Wildwood, above, seems to be close to what I have turned up. The link here is to a Which? appraisal of the subject ‘Unfair terms’. The point I was making is that many site owners have now written into their T&Cs a no refund clause even if they cancel. This makes the contract very one sided and potentially ’unfair’. If I cancel I loose my money, if they cancel I lose my money.

I guess it may well cost more to take it to the small claims court than what the otherwise total loss would be though.

 

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/there-s-an-unfair-term-in-my-contract-how-can-i-complain-and-get-my-money-back-aeHsV7t85zl5

[Wildwood]

14 hours ago, klyne said:

 

I would not be in my nature to do that and in these circumstances I think it would be unfair. The T&C's are clear and as I couldn't make it I lost £175. My argument is that sites like this are not really encouraging people to revisit by their rules. They are probably content with my £175 and probably by the law of averages they know full well that many people only visit a site once so what is the point in trying to offer anything in the way of goodwill?  Perhaps their fingers have been burnt in the past and that has framed the way they set out their rules. I just wonder how many people in the pandemic have experienced the same issue?  At some point they have to accept peoples word. Short of me dropping by on the way home to show them my positive COVID test, which I imagine they wouldn't have been keen on, what else could I do?

 

David

David, My point is really aimed at the OP rather than you, and is more the strict legal position, rather than anything else.  If you as the customer fail to complete a contract, then you are in breach and will lose all or most of the money involved. Technically you could ask for the saving to them, principally electricity, but the sums probably do not make it worthwhile,  and unlike most people you have read the conditions. 

I appreciate there are two sides to the problem, and things may not be clear cut in many cases. 

[joanie]

 copied from ,  Unclemort  ,    Which, Consumer Rights;

 

You can also report a contract term you think is unfair to the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) using use this form. 

The CMA can then investigate and ultimately force a company to change its terms.

----------------------------------------------------------

 Have you done the above ?

 In this case , if you read the t&c's  and didn't agree with them , surely you would look else where.  However , it's been an interesting thread, so thanks for bringing it to our attention.