Gd54 Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 I'm sure we are all taken in by the marketing and sales talk of improved Caravan build quality. It seems as though we are being suckered in by the promise of improved build quality. I have a 2019 caravan that is sold under the banner of better than most build quality and this maybe true regarding the use of bonding rather than lots of screws but I feel other parts of the construction has not changed for many years. The major components in the caravan seem to have moved forward a bit, heating systems, cookers and bathroom fittings but the components made by the manufacturer of the caravan hasn't. Self tapping screws into plywood wall board never was a good practice. open end grain on floor board under the caravan and the A frame cover/step re-enforces by of bit of floor off-cut glued to the ABS cover. Bulkhead screws coming loose and cabinetry that is mis-aligned, the list is endless. I suspect the main reason for the lack of careful construction is cost. I suspect the £25k caravan has a build cost of around £6000 when the dealers costs, VAT, warranty allowance, future development costs, past development costs, manufacturers profit, bank interest payments etc are considered. The cost of developing a new method of fixing for the cabinets to the wall would be too costly. The manufacturer is mainly concerned with new sales and satisfying the first owners needs. If the cabinets remain fixed to the wall for the length of the warranty then that is a satisfactory fixing method. Most new caravan buyers tend not to keep a caravan for more than a few years anyway. Manufacturers and dealer need churn to make money. Making a caravan that performs faultlessly for 20 years is not the way to build a successful business. So, should we be surprised when the brackets fixing the cabinets come loose or the towel holder fall of the wall, after all, that's been happening for many years, we complain but still buy new caravans. Who is the mug!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David 38 Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 Like Quote Regards, David Peugeot 308 GT Premium, 1.5 diesel 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camperdom Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 Problem does seem to be with UK built caravans not continental built though. I am in my third season of use of a French built Caravelair caravan. 6mtres length. Cost new in 2020 £12k from Belgian main dealer. Very basic caravan cheap materials & several months of use every year in France & UK. Nothing has come loose dropped off or failed. Serviced last year no damp. Zero faults. That’s it really. Looking around the site I am on in Dordogne there are large upmarket well specced Fendts Hobbys Knaus etc. All of them look streets ahead of any UK built caravans so why keep buying UK built caravans ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChertseyMike Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 I think a £6000 build cost is a little bit optimistic. Build anything for yourself and it's impressive how quickly the costs mount, often on things like screws. Plus all of components they buy in for other manufacturers who have their own profit margins and development to cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnausCol Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 The difference in quality between my Knaus and any British built van I examined before I made my purchase decision is marked - and I looked at many. Just simple things like the screws used everywhere - they are all torx. Handles and hinges all feel solid. The hinges supporting the lift up bed frames in particular seem almost over engineered. The cabinetry, including doors is all quality wood or ply not plastic. All the locker doors and catches seem better quality, particularly the hinges and locking for the large front locker which seems a weakness on many Brit vans. The only cheap thing that I dislike is the flimsy concertina partition separating kitchen and bedroom. In fact given the quality and robustness of the van overall I'm amazed how they manage to achieve the MIRO of only 1645kg and MTPLM 2000kg giving a generous 355kg payload. They also use sensible axles choosing 2 * 1350kg spec when they could have got away with less. Quote Life is not a rehearsal . . . Porsche Cayenne S Diesel & Knaus StarClass 695. Previously Audi S4 Avant & Elddis Super Sirocco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardandros Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 Totally agree with KnausCol above. Our Knaus is now three and half years old and whilst we have had some issues with it - they have all been in respect of third-party equipment. Nothing has dropped off or failed in respect of the structure of the van - it's beautifully put together and clearly built to last. I agree, that some parts actually seem to be over-engineered - but better that way than the other! It's been used every month since we got it - for at least a week and often more, so it's not as though it hasn't been tested. The highest damp reading at its 3rd service was 4% which says it all. Quote VW Touareg Escape towing a 2018 Knaus Starclass 695 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jezzerb Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 I personally think caravvan makers are in a catch 22 situation; people seem to like traditional kitchen type cupboards etc but these there fore need to be laminated ie in vinyl, etc etc. To be light these need to be egg board type construction. PErhaps a total rethink is needed, who knows. However everything is straight and always has been on our heavily used Buccaneer Cruiser, bought 2019. We're very happy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly-Fifer Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 " Making a caravan that performs faultlessly for 20 years is not the way to build a successful business. " Seems to work for Toyota, Hyundai and Kia though !!!............... not so for Jaguar Landrover ! Our new Unicorn Cabrera ( no change out of £30k ) is held together with velcro and silicone !!! Some Unicorns are now being built by Stevie Wonder !! Some are being sent out with no AL-KO ATC because Bailey can't get it from AL-KO !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formermember Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 1 hour ago, Fly-Fifer said: " Making a caravan that performs faultlessly for 20 years is not the way to build a successful business. " Seems to work for Toyota, Hyundai and Kia though !!!............... not so for Jaguar Landrover ! Our new Unicorn Cabrera ( no change out of £30k ) is held together with velcro and silicone !!! Some Unicorns are now being built by Stevie Wonder !! Some are being sent out with no AL-KO ATC because Bailey can't get it from AL-KO !!! And neither can Swift, Coachman etc. Blame Putin - the ATC is part made in Ukraine….. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericfield Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 9 hours ago, KnausCol said: The difference in quality between my Knaus and any British built van I examined before I made my purchase decision is marked - and I looked at many. Just simple things like the screws used everywhere - they are all torx. Handles and hinges all feel solid. The hinges supporting the lift up bed frames in particular seem almost over engineered. The cabinetry, including doors is all quality wood or ply not plastic. All the locker doors and catches seem better quality, particularly the hinges and locking for the large front locker which seems a weakness on many Brit vans. The only cheap thing that I dislike is the flimsy concertina partition separating kitchen and bedroom. In fact given the quality and robustness of the van overall I'm amazed how they manage to achieve the MIRO of only 1645kg and MTPLM 2000kg giving a generous 355kg payload. They also use sensible axles choosing 2 * 1350kg spec when they could have got away with less. UK manufacturers are hung up on getting the weight of their caravans down as low as possible and keeping payloads lean to minimise theMTPLM. I can’t help thinking that this is driven by the UK obsession with the 85% figure. The rest of Europe aren’t fixated on a number and therefore can build caravans to a more robust spec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReggiePerrin Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 2 minutes ago, ericfield said: UK manufacturers are hung up on getting the weight of their caravans down as low as possible and keeping payloads lean to minimise theMTPLM. I can’t help thinking that this is driven by the UK obsession with the 85% figure. The rest of Europe aren’t fixated on a number and therefore can build caravans to a more robust spec. More to do with the (recently binned) licence restriction than the outdated 85% guidance I'd have thought. Quote This post is not intended to suggest you are pedantic or that you shouldn't ever post again. It is not retaliatory in its intent and I apologise for any offence it may give rise to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericfield Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 2 minutes ago, ReggiePerrin said: More to do with the (recently binned) licence restriction than the outdated 85% guidance I'd have thought. That maybe so, but never the less the focus of UK manufacturers has long been ‘never mind the quality, feel how light it is’ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jezzerb Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 Probably right there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulR Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 We have just changed from a series of Coachman caravans to a swift, the build is rubbish in my opinion. I will be history very soon. I would list my issues but I really don't feel I should give this van the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mw3230 Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 7 hours ago, ericfield said: UK manufacturers are hung up on getting the weight of their caravans down as low as possible and keeping payloads lean to minimise theMTPLM. I can’t help thinking that this is driven by the UK obsession with the 85% figure. The rest of Europe aren’t fixated on a number and therefore can build caravans to a more robust spec. The obsession with light weight is only likely to be given even more prominence as we are obliged to move to electric tow vehicles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovinmad Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 1 hour ago, PaulR said: We have just changed from a series of Coachman caravans to a swift, the build is rubbish in my opinion. I will be history very soon. I would list my issues but I really don't feel I should give this van the time. So sorry to read of your imminent demise PaulR. Why did you bother changing your caravan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulR Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 We went from a fixed twin bed to a two berth thinking the bigger lounge area would do us better. When I rang the dealer back he had just sold our old caravan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReggiePerrin Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 12 minutes ago, PaulR said: We went from a fixed twin bed to a two berth thinking the bigger lounge area would do us better. Likewise last September. Fixed bed four berth Valencia to a two berth dealer special Challenger. A big mistake indeed and after just one long weekend away, in the October, we traded the Challenger in for new four berth Unicorn Cadiz. Happily, the dealership gave us what we paid for the Swift in PX against the Bailey. I would hasten to add that we found nothing wrong with the little Challenger beyond its suitability for our needs. Equally, nearly three months in, we have identified nothing wrong with the Bailey since we took delivery. Fingers crossed for that one. Quote This post is not intended to suggest you are pedantic or that you shouldn't ever post again. It is not retaliatory in its intent and I apologise for any offence it may give rise to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 21 hours ago, Gd54 said: Making a caravan that performs faultlessly for 20 years is not the way to build a successful business. I understand your reasoning but I disagree with the above statement. The problem is not always to sell at maximum profit per sale but by producing a good quality product, the manufacturer will be encouraging an increased customer base that often starts with the purchase of a pre-owned caravan. That is the way to increase a loyal customer base and owners will go on to purchase more caravans from the same manufacturer. Produce sub-standard goods and the customer for the new product is more likely to replace it with one from another manufacturer when it's time to replace, and furthermore post complaints on social media, so undermining trust in the product quality. I have said it before, that so many products today are made to look better than they are (perceived quality) rather than actually being good quality. Gizmos and gadgets have come to be preferred over good basic quality. Get the foundations right and the rest can follow but IMO far too much emphasis is placed on computer controlled this and that, when a simple switch would often suffice, and ultimately be more reliable and cheaper to produce. I have a car that is most likely to be replaced shortly; not because of mechanical problems but because unnecessary electronics have become unreliable. The car will almost certainly not be replaced by one from the same manufacturer as I have lost faith in their ability to incorporate reliability into the package, whereas quality and reliability were the major reasons for first choosing them - a decision that resulted in me purchasing a succession of vehicles from the same manufacturer over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David 38 Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 7 minutes ago, Gordon said: I understand your reasoning but I disagree with the above statement. The problem is not always to sell at maximum profit per sale but by producing a good quality product, the manufacturer will be encouraging an increased customer base that often starts with the purchase of a pre-owned caravan. That is the way to increase a loyal customer base and owners will go on to purchase more caravans from the same manufacturer. Produce sub-standard goods and the customer for the new product is more likely to replace it with one from another manufacturer when it's time to replace, and furthermore post complaints on social media, so undermining trust in the product quality. I have said it before, that so many products today are made to look better than they are (perceived quality) rather than actually being good quality. Gizmos and gadgets have come to be preferred over good basic quality. Get the foundations right and the rest can follow but IMO far too much emphasis is placed on computer controlled this and that, when a simple switch would often suffice, and ultimately be more reliable and cheaper to produce. I have a car that is most likely to be replaced shortly; not because of mechanical problems but because unnecessary electronics have become unreliable. The car will almost certainly not be replaced by one from the same manufacturer as I have lost faith in their ability to incorporate reliability into the package, whereas quality and reliability were the major reasons for first choosing them - a decision that resulted in me purchasing a succession of vehicles from the same manufacturer over the years. 2 minutes ago, David 38 said: I have a car that is most likely to be replaced shortly; not because of mechanical problems but because unnecessary electronics have become unreliable. The car will almost certainly not be replaced by one from the same manufacturer as I have lost faith in their ability to incorporate reliability into the package, whereas quality and reliability were the major reasons for first choosing them - a decision that resulted in me purchasing a succession of vehicles from the same manufacturer over the years. Got rid of my last two cars due to the two main dealers not having a clue what was wrong, Ford and Peugeot. Both out of 3 year warranty so got no where. So bought a brand new car so at least if problems I have warranty for 3 years. Quote Regards, David Peugeot 308 GT Premium, 1.5 diesel 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost in the wilderness Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 My first van was a six year old Lunar. Fifteen years later we changed the van. In the fifteen years, the only significant issues were water heater, space heater, fridge. All bought in items. Yes, the occasional need to tighten a screw or two. Van got a lot of use, with young children to punish it. On balance, I would say not unreasonable quality. But will admit that it started getting damp behind wheels. No complaints at 21 years old Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildwood Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 You are entitled to one that is fit for purpose but the chances of getting one are far lower than they should be. The number of problems arising and having to be paid for by the manufacturers seems so high that getting it right first time might be cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silversurf Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 13 hours ago, Gordon said: but IMO far too much emphasis is placed on computer controlled this and that, when a simple switch would often suffice, and ultimately be more reliable and cheaper to produce. ? Even more important to the end user, whose hard earned cash bought the thing, is that it would be easier to diagnose, easier to replace and more important cheaper to replace. Quote Common sense isn't a gift, it's a punishment because you have to deal with everyone who doesn't have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 I was told by someone who had worked for one of the major caravan manufacturers. That they were payed a bonus based on the number of caravans produced. Quality played no part in this. So if they made 9 perfect trouble free caravans, they were got less money than churning out 10 caravans that were going to be subject to endless warranty work. This has got to be frustrating for the owner, but also expensive for the manufacturer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ern Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 Caravans have too much heavy equipment in them. It's a matter of personal choice, but we would be happy to have no gas oven/grille, a single gas hob and a single induction hob (or a worktop space for a plug in one). We don't need a solar panel, and don't need a microwave oven either. Integrate a spare wheel properly housed without the AL-KO monster. What we do need is a much better shell construction, and stronger interior cabinets. Oh, and a 300Kg payload. I think the Swift body construction would have been ok if they had built it with fully bonded panels as advertised, and the the spare wheel in the floor as Avondale did it, and the basic idea of battery in the floor as Bailey did it would be good if done better with a lightweight battery. It would not be difficult to produce a far better basic caravan. Quote Ern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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