Jump to content

Problems with servicing and repairs of EV's and Hybrids, now and in the future.


Silversurf
 Share

Recommended Posts

I had an interesting chat with both my sons a few days ago, one has his own garage, the other works on commercial vehicles, ref. repairs and maintenance of EV's and hybrids.

 

The one with the garage  was approached by the  Bosch rep as to setting up and training for an EV repair / diagnostic bay, though interested, son said that at the moment the cost of both, compared with a projected throughput of vehicles wasn't viable for him but may be in the future, though he has the equipment and training for Hybrids.

 

A couple of interesting comments came out in the conversation, one was the lack of main dealer technicians EV training take up at the moment, resulting in some very good independents setting up, to which dealers send their cars, a knock on of this is extended repair and servicing waits for the customer, with the surprising to me, reports that some dealers sell the EV's but don't repair or maintain them and the owner has to have the work done at another garage in the group, which can result in round trips of many tens of miles, so no dropping it off locally then and popping home till the job done call arrives, just the same as when Smart cars were becoming popular, the round trip from the Manchester area to the nearest service center at the time, which was Sheffield was around 80 miles !

 

The second interesting thing the rep said was that if things EV pan out as they are supposed to do, charging points, infrastructure etc enabling use of more EV' by 2030, they have projected quite a noticeable shortfall of EV technicians of around 37,000 UK wide by 2030, yes, things may change, but like the truck driver shortfall at the moment, people don't want to train for, or do the job for various reasons.

 

On to the other son, he directed me to this article   https://tinyurl.com/yeudf94l    which makes interesting reading especially this comment: 

 

Paul Taylor, fleet manager at Morgan Sindall, said manufacturers are still playing catch up when it comes to maintaining EVs.

He explained: “The problem, particularly with electric commercial vans, for us in the outlying areas is getting the maintenance done because they’ve not got that big a range. When we put our first few (electric vans) in at Heathrow, the supplier told me where the nearest dealer was and I said I couldn’t get there.”

 

The company he works for is shying away from getting involved with EV's  at the moment for several reasons, low distance between charges, loss of payload per vehicle due to battery weights, which when added to the initial higher cost of EV's would increase the cost of running them to end of life quite noticeably, as to  servicing/repairs, though they do all their own, but setting up training and maintaining bays for what would initially a very small part of the fleet is out of the question at the moment, though they do want to go down the EV route as soon as possible.

 

Much to do and achieve between now and 2030/35, interesting times ahead.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 68
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Thing is unless they go wrong there is not much maintenance-coolant-like a fossil, brake pads(get used less) brake fluid -everything else is fit and forget oh pollen filter-it's if it goes wrong where the issue arrives-and as you say there maybe shortages but the TEsla clan seem very happy with Mr Ts mobile maintenance vehicles and over the air software updates.!  There seems from what he's saying that some canny mechanics could pull a fast one and be on a early adopter win win situation-at the mo battery issues are rare but if there are issues I know there aren't many independents yet able to work on them-it's coming though and there is a lot of small indeps working on changing individual cells rather than whole batteries at a cheap rate.

 

Edited by Jezzerb
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reads a bit like the trade needs to wake up and smell the coffee, as despite any issues, our and many other governments have mandated the way we are going. 

And IMO it is all going to happen faster rather than slower, their use of taxation and clean zone charges will force it to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The EV manufacturers will probably have warranty terms which capture the maintenance business, attempting to shut out, or at least limit, any independents. Manufacturer's approval will involve manufacturers training, which is expensive for most commodities. When it comes to running a 'closed shop'  the auto industry will run rings around anyone. Wait until the main dealers get started, and we will see eye watering labour rates.

There was a time when tweaking the timing or balancing a pair of carb's could be a nice little earner. "New brushes in your dynamo madame?  No problem at all"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 A friend of mine has owned and run a local garage for over 40 years, and has told me he will continue to work on petrol and diesels as long as he can. He has looked at the huge cost of re-training staff, new insulated tools and diagnostic equipment etc and will close his garage when EVs become the main vehicles on the road.... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

EVs are a significant problem when work is required to anyone. Many of the longer range vehicles run at 400V or more which in the wrong circumstances is lethal. If the battery overheats it is liable not only to catch fire - which is nigh impossible to extinguish as burning Lithium generates oxygen - but it can also explode with considerable force.

 

There was a prog a month of so ago on Yesterday called Trucking Hell following the day to day events of two HGV breakdown companies. In one a transporter with three EVs on board caught fire. The F&RS put the fire out but the breakdown company had to bring in a mobile crane to lift the cars off the truck and put them on the ground upside down so that the battery temperature could be read with heat guns. Two were essentially cold but one was sufficiently hot to cause concern. It end up with the car being lifted onto a flat-bad truck and being transported -  with a Fire Service escort -  back to the breakdown company's yard where another crane lifted it into a large skip-type container full of water to cool it down. It stay in the tank for (IMSMC) two days before it was considered safe.

 

Me? Have an EV? Not at the moment thank you.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My experience with main dealers with the electrics in present diesel cars frightens me when I think the future is electric.  :-(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It goes deeper than just the EV tech.

 

Newer EV's are coming with more and more self driving tech and over the air updates.

 

Tesla are just one manufacturer pushing for repairs and servicing to be restricted to the OEM or approved service centres only.

 

They also say they will withhold over the air updates if the car has been repaired or serviced outside the dealer network.

 

The claim unauthorised work could put the car out of spec and be dangerous for the self driving tech or any future updates. 

Further to this they could also block the car from  using the TESLA charging network.

 

Interesting times ahead.

Yeti 2.0TDi EU6 150 DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Fabia TSi DSG, Swift Challenger.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Their (Tesla’s) bat

Their ball

Their playground

Their rules ! 

 

Experience is something you acquire after you have an urgent need for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Mr Plodd said:

Their (Tesla’s) bat

Their ball

Their playground

Their rules ! 

 

 

Currently in the states there is the whole right to repair legislation, in the EU block exemption etc for servicing and warranty.

 

So there's still a few hoops to jump through for them to be legal with what they are suggesting.

 

They are not the only one with this stance though.  

Yeti 2.0TDi EU6 150 DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Fabia TSi DSG, Swift Challenger.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just because EV’s are currently mandated doesn’t mean it will happen. Last week Johnson Mathey who are probably UK’s largest supplier of chemicals and specialist components to the car industry said they will not be investing to support EV’s. Their view is hydrogen is the future for their company. I am in the process of buying a PHEV simply because market forces (SWMBO) dictate so but I remain convinced it is only time before there is a BEVgate….

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Errr EV's have happened. One EV mini made to two fossil and they simply cant keep up. I don't think bev gate'll happen there'll be both alongside each other till we can generate hydrogen and store it more efficiently. Tesla are the uks best selling car, thousands out there already.  Both will be Good.

Edited by Jezzerb
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just like diesel used to outsell petrol cars. There are lots of buyers jumping on a bandwagon they don’t understand. I didn’t say BEV’s werent in demand - in fact that demand is more likely to end up creating a problem when something goes wrong, because it will. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No band wagon-a combination of EV and alternative power sources are I am convinced the answer-since EVs were around in the early 19th century and there is so much development I think this and hydrogen will suit the consumer big time-and it'll be demand dependent-unless something else comes along but EVs are here to stay. I can't see what problem you are predicting.

 

Edited by Jezzerb
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Jezzerb said:

 I can't see what problem you are predicting.

 

 

No one “saw” the problem with convincing people to purchase diesel powered cars initially did they?? 

 

I think there are a few issues in regards to BEV’s that will cause problems in the future

  1. The availability and cost, both financially and environmentally of the materials required for the vast number of batteries that will be required
  2. The infrastructure required to charge all of these BEV’s both in the physical charging points that will be required and the huge increase in electricity generation required, fossil fuel generation facilities are closing and there is nothing in the pipeline (yet) to replace it.
  3. The above two problems will increase exponentially with the ever increasing numbers of BEV’s 

I wonder how many of the current owners of BEV’s don’t have access to home (or workplace) chargers and are solely reliant on public charging points? I bet it’s very few indeed, but that will  increase because not everyone lives somewhere they can plug their car into (terraced housing with no off street parking, blocks of flats etc) They can’t all use public charging points overnight!! 

Public “fast chargers” are available, but they are in very limited numbers, as are the vehicles that can make use of them (but not for every charge)

 

How many pure BEV owners expanding their virtues on the forum are 100% reliant on public chargers only? 

 

 

Edited by Mr Plodd

Experience is something you acquire after you have an urgent need for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree charging is a big issue-plenty of talk of better ways but.....! However there's a lot of negative EV stuff around materials for batteries, mostly bandied round by the oil companies who are trying very hard to slow their progress.  And they're very recyclable-however I predict a future where EVs exist for short journeys (as we use ours for) with longer and heavier duties carried out by hydrogen-huge issue in itself as it's hard to carry enough for a decent range-though big moves on this, similar lack of infrastructure but the elephant in the room is how to produce it-it needs lots of electricity at the mo -and so we're back to square one-more efficient to shove it into batteries! Exciting times I think! And of course there's synthetic fuel as well-same as hydrogen -lots of leccy  means lack of efficiency but things are a moving fast in all directions! We are reaping the benefits of an EV now-who knows what the future will bring but don't rely on our government to do the 'right' thing!!!!! I#v'e given up on that a long time ago!

 

As for Tesla, he's already been sorted ! 

Can independent shops work on Tesla?

Tesla has opened its platform for repair and maintenance information to third parties after several complaints to the EU Commission. Independent car repair shops can now access the information without restrictions. ... Costs that an independent workshop has to pass on to the customer

Edited by Jezzerb
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Jezzerb said:

However there's a lot of negative EV stuff around materials for batteries, mostly bandied round by the oil companies who are trying very hard

I met an Aussie guy on a flight who worked for one of the big mining companies and he said he'd like to see Greta make a speech about EV saving the planet from one of the mega rare earth material mines...

 

He said they make O&G industry look environmentally friendly!!

 

As for recycling this is in its infancy. I don't believe these little Lithium cells are truly recyclable. Just a con job.

 

This was part of an article from Jan 2021 - "These startups aim to automate, streamline, and clean up what has been a labor-intensive, inefficient, and dirty process. Traditionally, battery recycling involves either burning them to recover some of the metals, or else grinding the batteries up and treating the resulting “black mass" with solvents."

 

Anyone who says otherwise probably used to be marketing manager at the VW "mpg rating team".

 

This is gonna be another dieselgate, batterygate.

 

The future is Hydrogen.

 

Edited by Readingblue
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Totally untrue REadingBlue-they're already recycling them and predicting nigh on the whole battery chemistry can be used again. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Jezzerb said:

Totally untrue REadingBlue-they're already recycling them and predicting nigh on the whole battery chemistry can be used again. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56574779

 

Quote

"Currently, globally, it's very hard to get detailed figures for what percentage of lithium-ion batteries are recycled, but the value everyone quotes is about 5%," says Dr Anderson. "In some parts of the world it's considerably less."

 

Quote

The EU’s Battery Directive means that at least 50% of the battery in its entirety must be recycled.

 

Which means 50% isn't

 

Quote

Now, recyclers primarily target metals in the cathode, such as cobalt and nickel, that fetch high prices. (Lithium and graphite are too cheap for recycling to be economical.) But because of the small quantities, the metals are like needles in a haystack: hard to find and recover.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry I've been reading different stuff-admittedly might be from an EV slant, but things are moving fast-early days! I'm assuming these figures will be mobiles and computers-EVS haven't really been around long enough to get started!

Edited by Jezzerb
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Jezzerb said:

Sorry I've been reading different stuff-admittedly might be from an EV slant, but things are moving fast-early days! I'm assuming these figures will be mobiles and computers-EVS haven't really been around long enough to get started!

 

The vehicle propulsion market is only ever going to go one way as it driven world wide by governments on a dodgy agenda. But all the noise around battery disposal dents the "very Green" credentials the EV  vehicles are sold on.

 

Whole life cost and environmental impact for ICE  vehicles is well documented, but it seems that that is not the case with EV's as some of the claims and environmental impacts are not, which is never a good thing from a perspective of transparency.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What difference is there between servicing a petrol/diesel engine to an electric motor?

I assume safety things brakes and tyres are the same and computer updating.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, David 38 said:

What difference is there between servicing a petrol/diesel engine to an electric motor?

Electric motors are a bit like turbine engines in that they only have one rotating assembly. They can use sealed for life ball bearings rather than the plain bearings petrol / diesel engines use because they don't have to deal with the huge radial loads generated when converting linear movement to rotation. I believe modern EV motors are water cooled but that's about the only complexity.

 

Compare that to a petrol / diesel engine which leaves nasty products in its lubricant, has many points of sliding contact. Has pumps, belts, valves, wastegates, turbocharger, injectors, filters.  Not to mention it's very own electric motor which is required to start the thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So the garages that live on oil/filter changes going to unhappy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...