Ceepeebee Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 12 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said: My view would be that “provisionally” means exactly what it means for learner drivers! A number of conditions will be attached. The law is going to be changed so that current B only licence holders will have the same entitlement as those who passed their test before 1997. But it is vital to realise the law has not yet been changed and until it is the “old” rules will apply still apply. It might be worth writing to your insurer and ask them the question. I would imagine they will say what I have. Thats my view, I would expect Legal Eagle will be along soon to add his thoughts. You can certainly purchase a car with suitable towing capacity, but (as I see it) you cannot legally drive any combination of 3500kg gross until the law is actually changed and no date has yet been set for that change. Thanks for the response - I re-read the DVLA screen and came to the same conclusion. It's just that I was hoping to buy more of a car (remarkably) for cheaper than settle before the rule comes into place, but I need to do so quickly. Either way this is good news! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Plodd Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 (edited) You can buy whatever car you want, you just won’t be able to drive any combination that exceeds 3500kg until the law itself is actually changed, which hopefully(?) will be in the not too distant future, but no firm date has yet been given. Given the extreme haste this change has been decided upon, and the total inability to now take a test to obtain the B+E entitlement, it would be nice to think the change to the law will be just as speedy! Edited September 22, 2021 by Mr Plodd Quote Experience is something you acquire after you have an urgent need for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legal Eagle Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 @Ceepeebee as Mr Plodd says, the law hasn't changed yet and the BE rules continue to restrict you to 3,500kg. The term "provisionally" in the context of a driving licence means the same as always - L plates and accompanied by full BE licence holder. BE tests stopped from 20th Sept. but the legislation change hasn't happened yet. Its scheduled to happen late Autumn. Quote Non in legendo sed in intelligendo leges consistunt. The laws depend not on being read, but on being understood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Plodd Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 L.E. Quote Experience is something you acquire after you have an urgent need for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChertseyMike Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 Not that I'd want to become the test case but it would be interesting to see whether the CPS would pursue a conviction between now and the as yet unknown date where this change becomes law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legal Eagle Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 2 hours ago, ChertseyMike said: Not that I'd want to become the test case but it would be interesting to see whether the CPS would pursue a conviction between now and the as yet unknown date where this change becomes law. What would actually happen is that on being stopped and discovering your driving licence is only provisional for that category, that you have no L plates and are unaccompanied by a full BE licence holder over 21, the police would seize your vehicle (car and trailer) and either issue FPNs or report you for summons for the offences. CPS would not be involved in deciding on taking proceedings for the summary only driving offences. On top of any fines and points you would also have the cost of the seizure/removal fee plus storage charges for every 24 hours it stays at the pound. However, you won't be allowed to take it back unless a suitably licensed and insured driver is present. Quote Non in legendo sed in intelligendo leges consistunt. The laws depend not on being read, but on being understood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesss Posted September 24, 2021 Share Posted September 24, 2021 The date on the draft statutory instrument is 15th Nov - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2021/9780348227581 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Plodd Posted September 24, 2021 Share Posted September 24, 2021 (edited) In legislation terms that is staggeringly quick!!! Hiw many will then think they can just hook up a heavier trailer and tow it without thinking about getting their licence amended? It could prove very awkward if stopped on the Continent without the B+E being shown on a D/L though as the continental police will be looking for B+E on driving licences. I think that pretty large scale dissemination of information is required here to prevent all sorts of problems. TV and newspaper ads for starters. Edited September 24, 2021 by Mr Plodd Quote Experience is something you acquire after you have an urgent need for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChertseyMike Posted October 19, 2021 Share Posted October 19, 2021 For anyone not following along the guidelines have now been updated to say the rules apply from the November 15th. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-rules-for-towing-a-trailer-or-caravan-with-a-car-from-autumn-2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 So now maybe we will start to see these current piffling payloads increase. Quote Living the dream, well more of a nightmare if the truth be known ~ Griff Wheels at the front ~ Discovery 4 Towing Machine Wheels at the back ~ 4 of ‘em Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ern Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 On 24/09/2021 at 16:40, Mr Plodd said: In legislation terms that is staggeringly quick!!! Hiw many will then think they can just hook up a heavier trailer and tow it without thinking about getting their licence amended? It could prove very awkward if stopped on the Continent without the B+E being shown on a D/L though as the continental police will be looking for B+E on driving licences. I think that pretty large scale dissemination of information is required here to prevent all sorts of problems. TV and newspaper ads for starters. As anyone can get their licence renewed, and the B+E group will be shown, there should be no problem. Quote Ern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Grumpy Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 hour ago, Griff said: So now maybe we will start to see these current piffling payloads increase. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChertseyMike Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 44 minutes ago, Mr Grumpy said: I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen ? Indeed, the guidelines will continue to favour low payloads in order to maximize the range of vehicles which can tow any given caravan. Relatively low maximum towing capacities on hybrids and electric cars arent likely to help that situation in the near term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beejay Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 7 hours ago, Ern said: As anyone can get their licence renewed, and the B+E group will be shown, there should be no problem. There are long delays in renewals by post. If changing a licence just to get the BE entitlement added it can be done on line for £14. As the change is not effective until November 15th applying before that date will not get BE added as the new licence will be valid from the date of the application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Plodd Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 8 hours ago, Ern said: As anyone can get their licence renewed, and the B+E group will be shown, there should be no problem. Indeed so, but that wasn’t the issue I raised was it?? Which, for the avoidance of doubt, is repeated below. How many will then think they can just hook up a heavier trailer and tow it without thinking about getting their licence amended? It could prove very awkward if stopped on the Continent without the B+E being shown on a D/L though as the continental police will be looking for B+E on driving licences Not everyone is so “genned up” on these things as members on here, and many will just see something in a paper, or hear from a friends friend, that a category B (only) licence holder will no longer be limited to 3500kg train weight, buys a larger caravan so the GTW is over 3500kg, loads it onto a ferry and then gets stopped in France. Their licence (which they haven’t bothered to get updated to show BE) will only show category B and that’s where the fun starts, trying to explain, to a French policeman who doesn’t speak English, at the side of a busy French road that under U.K. law they do in fact hold a category B entitlement even though it’s not shown on their licence! Quote Experience is something you acquire after you have an urgent need for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ern Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 2 hours ago, Mr Plodd said: Indeed so, but that wasn’t the issue I raised was it?? Which, for the avoidance of doubt, is repeated below. How many will then think they can just hook up a heavier trailer and tow it without thinking about getting their licence amended? It could prove very awkward if stopped on the Continent without the B+E being shown on a D/L though as the continental police will be looking for B+E on driving licences Not everyone is so “genned up” on these things as members on here, and many will just see something in a paper, or hear from a friends friend, that a category B (only) licence holder will no longer be limited to 3500kg train weight, buys a larger caravan so the GTW is over 3500kg, loads it onto a ferry and then gets stopped in France. Their licence (which they haven’t bothered to get updated to show BE) will only show category B and that’s where the fun starts, trying to explain, to a French policeman who doesn’t speak English, at the side of a busy French road that under U.K. law they do in fact hold a category B entitlement even though it’s not shown on their licence! There is always a risk of problems with people who are ignorant of the law (you probably know this well). I don't know what EU law requires foreign driving licences to show, but I would expect all sorts of different formats are held by foreigners visiting the EU from countries where the law is different to the EU. As it is such a simple matter for a UK licence holder to get their licence updated on the website though, I think it's up to the driver to deal with it if they feel it's a risk. Quote Ern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Plodd Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Ern I agree with you 100% in regards to ignorance being no excuse, but can certainly see problems occurring for those less well informed than forum members. Ignorance of the law doesn’t really apply in this case. Such drivers will actually be legally licensed to drive heavier combinations than now, but their licence (Unless updated) won’t show that fact, and foreign police officers will be looking for B+E As I stated some while ago this is something the Govt and the various clubs, need to heavily publicise so people travelling abroad don’t run into issues if stopped The UK driving licence is in exactly the same format and contains the information in exactly the same manner as the EU wide licence. That’s why back in the past ours were changed so that there was harmonisation of licence (and categories) across the entire EU. The format of the U.K. issued licence will not change, but for those with Category B only the rules in regards to MGTW will change on Nov 15 but unless people apply to have their licence changed their licences will still only show Cat B until it’s renewed. The ONLY change has been to do away with the requirement to take a further test for Category E all of the licence categories will remain the same and category E will be automatically added to Cat B licences but only when the licence is renewed. As yet I have not seen it mentioned anywhere in the press OR media other than on this (and other) forums. Quote Experience is something you acquire after you have an urgent need for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamD Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) Come on - really! You know darn well that those jolly French chappies will have sent out an operational immediate message to all their frontliners telling them that b=b+e and not to tease the blighty boys (and girls) on the 15th - surely! Edited October 21, 2021 by SamD Quote Sam Range Rover Sport - Auto Sleepers Kensington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildwood Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 That is the advice on the Government website, and the change still has to be ratified by Parliament, so there is a small risk that it may not happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesss Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 It has been reviewed by the House of Lords now - https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld5802/ldselect/ldsecleg/79/7903.htm Interesting part is paragraph 9: Quote 9.The Category BE towing test will not be abolished because it is still needed by anyone wishing to drive with a trailer in the EU. This instrument only removes the obligation to take the test before towing in the UK. We asked why the obligation was not suspended for 12 months instead. DfT replied: “Changing the legislation on the B+E test requirement now is needed in order to address the HGV driver shortage by rapidly and significantly increasing driver testing capacity that would otherwise not be available. The benefit of increased DVSA capacity to the haulage industry extends beyond the current acute shortage and limiting this to a shorter than 3-year period of review may limit the benefit. Car drivers who wish to tow a trailer or caravan also need assurance of being able to acquire legal driving licence entitlement and would be left in a state of uncertainty if we suspend rather than change legislation.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 13 minutes ago, jamesss said: It has been reviewed by the House of Lords now - https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld5802/ldselect/ldsecleg/79/7903.htm Interesting part is paragraph 9: and that paragraph makes no sense, if you go abroad now and are stopped by the police and your weights checked, they check your licence categories and if you have B+E then you are sent on your way, so why would that be any different after the changes take place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Plodd Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 48 minutes ago, Steven said: and that paragraph makes no sense, if you go abroad now and are stopped by the police and your weights checked, they check your licence categories and if you have B+E then you are sent on your way, so why would that be any different after the changes take place. That paragraph really doesn’t make any sense at all does it! The B+E test has been abolished and there is no way anyone can take one, every category B licence will be upgraded to include category E at renewal Well I am very confused by that paragraph! Quote Experience is something you acquire after you have an urgent need for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Towtug Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 Reading the draft act it seems to say that BE isnt abolished as it isnt in the UKs gift to abolish what is a licence category over all the EU. What the act does is abolish the need to be tested, and therefore gifts BE to all B licence holders. The scrutiny of the draft though seems to put it all in Limbo. Quote If all else fails, follow the instructions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legal Eagle Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) I think you'll find it is an error and that it was meant to read: 9.The Category BE driving licence group will not be abolished because it is still needed by anyone wishing to drive with a trailer in the EU. This instrument only removes the obligation to take the test before towing in the UK. Edited October 21, 2021 by Legal Eagle Quote Non in legendo sed in intelligendo leges consistunt. The laws depend not on being read, but on being understood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChertseyMike Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 3 minutes ago, Legal Eagle said: I think you'll find it is a typing error and that it should read: 9.The Category BE driving licence group will not be abolished because it is still needed by anyone wishing to drive with a trailer in the EU. This instrument only removes the obligation to take the test before towing in the UK. That end bit is a bit misleading: This instrument only removes the obligation for UK licence holders to take the test before towing. I think that's what they meant but I misread that original wording as it only allows towing within the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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