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Having to look at UK heavy weight caravans


Ukzero
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What would be interesting is the £ per kg involved compared to other ranges.

Bailey Discovery D4-4 £1,608 per 100kg

Bailey Pheonix 440 £1,578 per 100kg

Bailey Unicorn Cadiz £1,737 per 100g

Bailey Pegasus Rimini £1,645 per 100kg

Bailey Alicanto Estoril £1,952 per 100kg

 

Inos £??????/28 = £££££

 

 

I've got nothing to do on this hot afternoon

but to settle down and write you a line.

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59 minutes ago, Steamdrivenandy said:

What would be interesting is the £ per kg involved compared to other ranges.

Bailey Discovery D4-4 £1,608 per 100kg

Bailey Pheonix 440 £1,578 per 100kg

Bailey Unicorn Cadiz £1,737 per 100g

Bailey Pegasus Rimini £1,645 per 100kg

Bailey Alicanto Estoril £1,952 per 100kg

 

Inos £??????/28 = £££££

 

 


 

Dunno, but you can uprate a Hymer 480 to a 608Kg payload for €495

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Upgrades are just the cost of a stronger axle/wheels/tyres fitted during manufacture, so they're relatively cheap. Though obvs the cheapest are the paper jobs. To retro fit an upgrade means stripping out old axles and fitting stronger replacements which is a more comprehensive and costly exercise.

 

Dividing the list price by the standard MTPLM gives you a hierarchy of cost per kg or 100kg, however you want to express it. I haven't worked it out but I suspect that the cost per kg goes down, within a range as the vans get larger, because you're enclosing more and more air which adds no weight. You can do the same calculation with MIRO and with payloads.

I've got nothing to do on this hot afternoon

but to settle down and write you a line.

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15 hours ago, Ukzero said:

As I said, nothing is set in stone yet - apart from our tow tug swap. As JungleJim mentioned we were also made aware of the likely shortage of Navaras and have one on order. I never intended to buy new (and this would be our first new car ever) but the newer used examples were only a couple of hundred quid less than a brand new one after discount!! No, I don't understand why if demand is so high they still offered a very generous discount on a new one, but I'm not about to complain.

You'll enjoy the Nav whatever you do finally end up with on the back of it, we find it a great motor for all we do, it does do some 'proper' work towing plant around aswell as the caravan.  Looking at used prices for a 2yr old one we hopefully won't get that much of a loss when it comes to selling on.

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1 hour ago, Steamdrivenandy said:

Dividing the list price by the standard MTPLM gives you a hierarchy of cost per kg or 100kg, however you want to express it. I haven't worked it out but I suspect that the cost per kg goes down, within a range as the vans get larger, because you're enclosing more and more air which adds no weight. You can do the same calculation with MIRO and with payloads.


 

Which seems to be the ‘English way’, the largest possible volume per £ with scant regard for usability by dint of tiny and unusable payloads.

 

See the U.K. caravan reviews of Hymers that bitterly complain about their high weight, (the smallest 2 berth 470 tips in at a sturdy 1800kg, now were  talking!), but European reviews accept that bigger = heavier, and high payloads are a key selling point.

 

On my last trip out, I was parked next to a very large 6 berth Bailey. The owner was astonished to find my little 2 berth 390 was only 350kg lighter, but had nearly double his payload.

 

Edited by Whomer
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Additional payload is really a sort of free, or almost free, beer. After all it's the overall structure of the van which is the heavy bit. Just by tweaking the axle and other bits during production the basic structure remains virtually the same but the payload can be increased.

 

So  why don't UK manufacturers offer it, given that high payload enthusiasts are so keen? The answer has to be that they'll lose out in sales, otherwise if high weights sold, at least one would give it a try.

 

It can't be for lack of tugging power though, because on a run up the M6 on Sunday every caravan we passed was being pulled by an oversize SUV that could easily pull something twice the weight of what was behind. Now you'd think that such owners, with towing capacity to spare, would opt for a big heavy van just because they could. But they don't.

 

The days seem to have gone where you towed your van with a mid size saloon or hatchback.

I've got nothing to do on this hot afternoon

but to settle down and write you a line.

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Posted (edited)

D'oh! Now I feel so foolish.

If I do any kind of £/kg of payload calculation for the Inos it's a disaster :blink:

Time for a rethink - now, where did I put that Ifor Williams catalogue. A big one of those would be a perfect match for our pick up and carry such a huge load that my manhood index would be off the scale (see earlier posts for context).

 

We had this crazy dream where we could blow our savings and treat ourselves to a luxury caravan which was standard width to tow on country lanes, but then magically grew much larger than any "normal" caravan on site to give a wonderful sense of space and comfort. We had this perverse idea that rather than enjoying the ritual of carrying our stuff from car to caravan and then caravan to car every time we moved we would just leave it in the caravan (rather like a MH). We could indulge in the hedonistic luxury of adding motor movers, automatic levelling, A/C and a decent roof awning if we want (even some of SDAs suggestions) and still not have to unbolt the spare wheel and carrier. We were seduced by the bespoke approach where we could chose and personalise many aspects of the build. Speaking of build, we were lured by the decadent notion of build quality aimed at ensuring the walls don't wobble when you brush past and that door hinges don't fall off every other trip, rather than keeping the weight down to to be able to access the potential market of as many "normal car" owners as possible (sorry, to demonstrate environmental responsibility). We had.......... Hmmmmmm......... 

You know, that all sounds rather attractive ;)

 

And thanks for the encouring words regarding the Navara JJ.

 

 

Edited by Ukzero
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I'm intrigued by your proposed choice of Inos towed by Navara. When looking for our new van we considered the 5th Wheel Company products and did a factory open day like yourself. I was really tempted by the Celtic Rambler 5th wheeler and it remains for me the ultimate interior layout. But I was concerned about access to smaller sites (no motor mover for tight pitches) and I couldn't bring myself to have a pickup as my main car - I'm a petrolhead at heart and driving enjoyment whilst not hitched remains important to me - Cayenne v. pickup??

The Inos was an equally super build and would have solved my tow car bias but the layout was less appealing than the Rambler. In the end I saw the Knaus, got offered an incredible discount, and I couldn't justify the cost differential to the Inos anyway.

Whatever, you are looking at what is undoubtedly a fantastic quality product and I you'll enjoy determining the spec almost as much as travelling in the end product! Keep us informed of your progress.

 

Life is not a rehearsal . . .:)

Porsche Cayenne S Diesel & Knaus StarClass 695. Previously Audi S4 Avant & Elddis Super Sirocco

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It's your hard earnt money, no one else's you are spending so buy what YOU want - you can't take it with you to the next life.

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16 minutes ago, junglejim said:

It's your hard earnt money, no one else's you are spending so buy what YOU want - you can't take it with you to the next life.

 

Agree 100%.  I'm certainly envious but there's a world of difference between envy and jealousy!  I look forward to seeing some pictures of the Inos and hearing all about it, they look fantastic.  I saw one on site a couple of years back and the slide-out certainly offers up plenty of space.

2018 Volvo V90 and 2018 Swift Sprite Quattro EB

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If you think the Brits are bad try the Freedom, they think 50 kg is acceptable on some models. Only consolation is that you should not need a mover given the MIRO.

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52 minutes ago, KnausCol said:

I'm intrigued by your proposed choice of Inos towed by Navara. When looking for our new van we considered the 5th Wheel Company products and did a factory open day like yourself. I was really tempted by the Celtic Rambler 5th wheeler and it remains for me the ultimate interior layout. But I was concerned about access to smaller sites (no motor mover for tight pitches) and I couldn't bring myself to have a pickup as my main car - I'm a petrolhead at heart and driving enjoyment whilst not hitched remains important to me - Cayenne v. pickup??

The Inos was an equally super build and would have solved my tow car bias but the layout was less appealing than the Rambler. In the end I saw the Knaus, got offered an incredible discount, and I couldn't justify the cost differential to the Inos anyway.

Whatever, you are looking at what is undoubtedly a fantastic quality product and I you'll enjoy determining the spec almost as much as travelling in the end product! Keep us informed of your progress.

 

There were no open days convenient so they did us a our own. We also had one of the designers with us so we could discuss a whole host of possibilities. I was able to discuss a motor mover system for the Celtic Rambler as we would need this for storage access and I had come up with a number of ideas and it is very likely a system will soon be on offer from them (but it won't be cheap!).

We really expected to fall for the Celtic Rambler - especially with the prospect of movers being on the horizon. This is the unit whic attracts most attention and most aspire to. It was very impressive and the living area was huge and it had the centre washroom layout we like (though it is rather tight in there). Somehow we just didn't "connect" with it though. There was also the potentially even higher cost looming, then the hitch conversion taking up space and not being able to have a hard top. ....

We were now rather deflated and expected to be very disappointed with the Inos in comparison, but to our complete surprise we loved it.  We felt rather like the couple in this YouTube video.....

They will fit a proper door into the bedroom for us and the end washroom wasn't an issue mainly because of the width giving good clearance. Negotiations are likely to start soon......

 

As for the pick up. I have had weekend cars for may years. My current "special" DB7 may soon be for sale to help fund the caravan and if I miss "spirited" driving I may consider a tatty older Elise or similar to tinker with. Zero depreciation, cheap insurance at my age and lots of fun potential.

Anyway back to the pick up, I rather like the idea of (once the hard top is fitted) throwing our wet suits or muddy boots or the like in the back while the front cabin remains civilised.  :)

 

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News about a mover for the Rambler is interesting  - as with anything 5th Wheel Company I wouldn't expect it to be cheap - but you get what you pay for. I do envy you the process of choosing your options and bespoke tweaks for the Inos - that must be a treat, with the only downside trying to keep the budget from escalating out of control! :o. I'm sure you'll end up with a fantastic van.

 

Life is not a rehearsal . . .:)

Porsche Cayenne S Diesel & Knaus StarClass 695. Previously Audi S4 Avant & Elddis Super Sirocco

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5 hours ago, Steamdrivenandy said:

Upgrades are just the cost of a stronger axle/wheels/tyres fitted during manufacture, so they're relatively cheap. Though obvs the cheapest are the paper jobs. To retro fit an upgrade means stripping out old axles and fitting stronger replacements which is a more comprehensive and costly exercise.

 

Technical upgrades may be quite cheap for the manufacturer, even if it means an axle change, but knowing how desperate some people are in getting bigger payloads one would have thought that an enterprising manufacturer would take advantage of the situation and the willingness of maybe some customers to pay quite considerable sums for such an upgrade.

At least on their home ground, AL-KO do offer retrofit upgrades. Heavier duty suspension from €549, axle replacement from €1599, replacement of the complete chassis from €4500

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6 hours ago, Lutz said:

Technical upgrades may be quite cheap for the manufacturer, even if it means an axle change, but knowing how desperate some people are in getting bigger payloads one would have thought that an enterprising manufacturer would take advantage of the situation and the willingness of maybe some customers to pay quite considerable sums for such an upgrade.

At least on their home ground, AL-KO do offer retrofit upgrades. Heavier duty suspension from €549, axle replacement from €1599, replacement of the complete chassis from €4500

 

I guess that if you can sell all your annual production without getting into much in the way of non standard options then you'll be happy with that. If there was much demand for substantial alterations to a standard model then I'm sure someone would be happy to set up in business to modify vans as required. They could set up a stronger chassis ready for the 'normal' body to be fitted, or buy in the body and fit it to an updated chassis. I presume nobody has done either because in the UK market it's low price that sells.

I've got nothing to do on this hot afternoon

but to settle down and write you a line.

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32 minutes ago, Steamdrivenandy said:

 

I guess that if you can sell all your annual production without getting into much in the way of non standard options then you'll be happy with that. If there was much demand for substantial alterations to a standard model then I'm sure someone would be happy to set up in business to modify vans as required. They could set up a stronger chassis ready for the 'normal' body to be fitted, or buy in the body and fit it to an updated chassis. I presume nobody has done either because in the UK market it's low price that sells.


To have an MTPLM upgrade done by a third party would be even more expensive as they would have to go through a separate type approval process to cover the modification. The manufacturer could cover the modification simply through an amendment of his documentation, but then he would have to do the work himself.

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13 hours ago, Steamdrivenandy said:

 

 

So  why don't UK manufacturers offer it, given that high payload enthusiasts are so keen? The answer has to be that they'll lose out in sales, otherwise if high weights sold, at least one would give it a try. 


The UK caravan market is a very strange thing, very few people actually camp.

It’s a for many a weekend hobby where you drive to a pitch And sit inside watching TV while studiously avoiding any other campers. As long as you have enough payload for the TV and a dog bed,  it’s all good.

Edited by Whomer
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8 hours ago, Whomer said:


The UK caravan market is a very strange thing, very few people actually camp.

It’s a for many a weekend hobby where you drive to a pitch And sit inside watching TV while studiously avoiding any other campers. As long as you have enough payload for the TV and a dog bed,  it’s all good.

 

That's a bit broad brush. The UK caravan market varies widely. At one end there are those who own a van but don't actually use it, through those that use once or twice a year for long holidays, then those that use them for weekend breaks in the summer but jet off for main holidays, then there are those that do all weekends rallying and long UK and Co ntinental holidays, there are Continental to users who go away for most of the year. So a whole gambit of owners.

 

I've got nothing to do on this hot afternoon

but to settle down and write you a line.

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Conversely I have not come across anyone over here who use their caravan for weekend trips so there may be a grain of truth in what Whomer said about the difference between the UK and Continental market. Those that I have met who go away just for a weekend all seem to have motorhomes instead. Caravans tend to be used only for longer trips.

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50 minutes ago, Lutz said:

Conversely I have not come across anyone over here who use their caravan for weekend trips so there may be a grain of truth in what Whomer said about the difference between the UK and Continental market. Those that I have met who go away just for a weekend all seem to have motorhomes instead. Caravans tend to be used only for longer trips.


 

Don't forget Dauercamper, a relatively rare thing in the U.K.

 

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4 minutes ago, Whomer said:


 

Don't forget Dauercamper, a relatively rare thing in the U.K.

 

 

For the benefit of those of us who don’t speak (what I assume is) German? What on Earth is that? 

 

What happened to the rest of your post about Gods waiting room campsites?,

Edited by Mr Plodd

Experience is something you acquire after you have an urgent need for it.

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30 minutes ago, Whomer said:


 

Don't forget Dauercamper, a relatively rare thing in the U.K.

 

a permanent camper

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Dauercamper are seasonal campers who use their touring caravans basically as statics. Some will just take their caravan off the pitch for holidays further afield.

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It's common in Germany, or was when we were out there. They site their caravans and often have decking and big awnings or wooden extensions.

A lot of people in cities live in apartments  so escape at weekends.

We lived in a nice apartment  but were tenters at the time.

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:Thankyou:  chaps! 

Experience is something you acquire after you have an urgent need for it.

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