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Maximising payload


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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Steamdrivenandy said:

 

That aside, the CofC says the car's 'actual mass' is 1293kg, so somewhere in the middle of the driver inclusive range, but 34kg more than the maximum without a driver.  But is it the actual mass of that particular vehicle as it came off the line with or without 75kg for a driver?

 

Quoting from the regulations, "Actual mass of the vehicle means mass in running order plus the mass of the optional equipment fitted to an individual vehicle". In other words, it includes all factory fitted options and the 75kg allowance for the driver and sundry items.

Edited by Lutz
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8 minutes ago, Lutz said:

 

Quoting from the regulations, "Actual mass of the vehicle means mass in running order plus the mass of the optional equipment fitted to an individual vehicle". In other words, it includes all factory fitted options and the 75kg allowance for the driver and sundry items.

 

That still doesn't clarify if it's an actual weight or a theoretical one, though granted it'll be more accurate than the scattergun range of weights offered for both SE and SEL models.  

I've got nothing to do on this hot afternoon

but to settle down and write you a line.

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Steamdrivenandy said:

 

That still doesn't clarify if it's an actual weight or a theoretical one, though granted it'll be more accurate than the scattergun range of weights offered for both SE and SEL models.  

 

Perhaps Towtug will give a more definitive answer to your question, but my understanding is that it is a calculated value and not necessarily a weighbridge figure obtained at the end of the production line. However, it should take into account the specific differences between the SE and the SEL like 16" vs. 17" wheels, sat nav, climate control air conditioning, etc.. I would imagine that, for the purposes of type approval, the S is taken as the standard model and everything fitted to the SE and SEL is always considered to be a factory fitted option. I doubt whether Skoda carried out separate EU type approval specifically for the SE or the SEL, (especially as the S, SE and SEL are specs that are specific to the UK only), but covered both of these models under a blanket approval for all Scala models, hence the range of figures.

Edited by Lutz
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lutz said:

Quoting from the regulations, "Actual mass of the vehicle means mass in running order plus the mass of the optional equipment fitted to an individual vehicle".

 

It is a shame regulations can, as this, be written in what at least for lay people is so ambiguous wording. Not that I ought to be typical, having a lifetime of working to BS, EN, DIn and a whole spectrum of "standards" from many countries, companies, organisations, insurers etc!

 

Maybe we could kindly ask the Legal Eagle  to put a professional angle on how  we ought to read this one, in more understood terms, please?

 

"Actual mass of the vehicle", means to me the mass of the vehicle being discussed, not any other vehicle however similar.

Compounded by the wording "an individual vehicle",  to me that is "this individual vehicle being discussed", not some other vehicle.

 

Things become more critical where the construction is not from inherently homogeneous materials,  like using "wood" where density and thickness can vary, the former differing where the timber is sourced and the moisture content it had at  the moment the van was weighed.

Edited by JTQ
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41 minutes ago, JTQ said:

 

"Actual mass of the vehicle", means to me the mass of the vehicle being discussed, not any other vehicle however similar.

Compounded by the wording "an individual vehicle",  to me that is "this individual vehicle being discussed", not some other vehicle.

 

I don't think that anyone interprets the wording any different to you. "Actual mass" is specific to a particular vehicle,  a particular chassis number if you like, whereas MIRO is not.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lutz said:

 

I don't think that anyone interprets the wording any different to you. "Actual mass" is specific to a particular vehicle,  a particular chassis number if you like, whereas MIRO is not.

 

Great thanks, just that the statement made earlier, quote "From the 7th September last year the C of C must contain the actual weight relevant to the specific Variant and Version.", gave rise to  my concern the interpretation being made was the weight would relate to a specific Variant and Version, not the specific item.

 

Clearly, if you weighed something, without the need to say it,  it has to relate to what model and version, it physically is.

 

Thanks for the clarification;  getting the weight for what actual physical van you seek to buy, is a massive step forward. Just deduct that from the stated MTPLM, and you have the real world "payload" you would have if buying that van.

 

 

 

Edited by JTQ
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27 minutes ago, JTQ said:

 

Great thanks, just that the statement made earlier, quote "From the 7th September last year the C of C must contain the actual weight relevant to the specific Variant and Version.", gave rise to  my concern the interpretation being made was the weight would relate to a specific Variant and Version, not the specific item.

 

Clearly, if you weighed something, without the need to say it,  it has to relate to what model and version, it physically is.

 

Thanks for the clarification;  getting the weight for what actual physical van you seek to buy, is a massive step forward. Just deduct that from the stated MTPLM, and you have the real world "payload" you would have if buying that van.

 

 

 

 

There may still be a slight variation as I believe Towtug pointed out a while ago that actual weight is (or at least may be) a calculated value, not an actual weighbridge result.

The biggest issue is that UK customers rarely receive a copy of the C of C. Steamdrivenandy seems to be a lucky exception.

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Posted (edited)

The regulation says that a C of C must be provided for any Type approved vehicles,  until recently this rarely happened for trailers as with no registration requirement most owners would find them pointless.

The new EU type approval regime from September last year ( and for the time being at least the UK type approval) requires a few detail changes to the way the masses are detailed but in essence they have been the same for years.

MRO can be declared as a range for a Variant, but as a specific value for Version. 

For example let's say we have Variant 540 with Versions SE , HE and XL

The variant MRO might be  1500 to 1700 kg, the versions then might be SE at 1500, HE at 1564 and XL at 1600 etc

Now, manufacturers optional masses have also to be mentioned in the approval document,  these might be something like Motor mover  50 kg, Bike carrier 20kg  etc etc

So for a 540 HE with a bike carrier the C of C will record the version MRO at 1564, but the actual mass of 1584

Similarly a 540 XL with motor mover and bike carrier  would show the MRO as 1600 , but the actual mass 1670.

 

The figure can be measured or calculated, but the option masses must be declared in the application.

 

This allows manufacturers to limit the number of versions and allow various permutations of optional equipment to extend the product offer.

 

The above relates to factory fits, but some manufacturers take into account options fitted by dealers.  In theory dealers should be considered as Stage 2 manufacturers but this is never done for O1 and O2, so specifying the masses this way allows scope to control such as the allowable paymass.

 

Anything fitted as an option after the C of C is issued will reduce the paymass. 

 

 

 

Edited by Towtug
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Just to pick up on points made about a range of weights being used for a set of cars, I've checked the Skoda Scala data on their website.

 

Leaving aside that they use the term Kerbweight, not MIRO and using the list that includes driver, the figures appear to follow the engine/transmission variant i.e.:

 

1.0 95PS in  S, SE, SE L  are all 1201kg - 1290kg

1.0 115PS Manual in SE, SE L 1225kg - 1314kg

1.0 115PS DSG in SE, SE L 1245kg - 1334kg

1.5 150PS Manual SE, SE L 1253kg - 1342kg

1.5 150PS DSG SE, SE L 1260kg - 1349kg

 

The range of weights is 89kg in all cases, which seems slightly odd when you see the the 'S' model is only available in the first listed spec. I assume that means that an 'S' spec. for the other engine/transmission offers might be available elsewhere and therefore the SE and SE L versions will have a kerbweight higher than the minimums shown. 

 

Another oddity is that the weight range difference between manual 1.0 115 and the 1.5 is 28kg, whilst the difference between the DSG versions of the same two engines only varies by 15kg. One would normally expect a bigger difference between auto versions, rather than manuals.

 

Finally, although the 'Monte Carlo' models have the same range of engines and transmissions, they have their own ranges of weights which are 45kg - 68kg more than their S, SE, SE L cousins. So much for them being sporty versions, they've the same power but more weight due to all the bits of flashy styling stuff.

I've got nothing to do on this hot afternoon

but to settle down and write you a line.

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Thanks Towtug for that informative posting.

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  • 3 weeks later...

We recently returned from a trip in our Burstner 690G Lyseo Harmony Line - 3500kg. Last stop before our driveway was the public weighbridge, full fuel, some fresh water and both of us seated. Ticket showed 3500kg dead. I was abit shocked as we carried no bikes, cadac and very low on beer. The next morning totally empty I returned and with full fuel no water no occupants ( microwave and second leisure battery fitted ) weighed in at 3060kg. Think at £6.50 a visit it was money well spent.

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39 minutes ago, Dturr said:

We recently returned from a trip in our Burstner 690G Lyseo Harmony Line - 3500kg. Last stop before our driveway was the public weighbridge, full fuel, some fresh water and both of us seated. Ticket showed 3500kg dead. I was abit shocked as we carried no bikes, cadac and very low on beer. The next morning totally empty I returned and with full fuel no water no occupants ( microwave and second leisure battery fitted ) weighed in at 3060kg. Think at £6.50 a visit it was money well spent.

Ouch. By my reckoning that’s around 390kg of water and stuff (assume 75kg per occupant) 

Would be quite interested to know what “stuff” you have to use so much payload 

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3 minutes ago, Lost in the wilderness said:

Ouch. By my reckoning that’s around 390kg of water and stuff (assume 75kg per occupant) 

Would be quite interested to know what “stuff” you have to use so much payload 

 

 "No occupants", has the potential to take a real bite, not an issue for caravanners only motorhomers, of course.

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52 minutes ago, Lost in the wilderness said:

Ouch. By my reckoning that’s around 390kg of water and stuff (assume 75kg per occupant) 

Would be quite interested to know what “stuff” you have to use so much payload 

3500kg-3060kg=440kg

440kg-150kg (75kgx2)=290kg

minus, say, 50 litres of fresh/waste water = 240kg

Still a fair amount, but better a lot less than 390kg.

I've got nothing to do on this hot afternoon

but to settle down and write you a line.

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39 minutes ago, Steamdrivenandy said:

3500kg-3060kg=440kg

440kg-150kg (75kgx2)=290kg

minus, say, 50 litres of fresh/waste water = 240kg

Still a fair amount, but better a lot less than 390kg.

Yeh. Your right, Me and mental maths aren’t the best of friends!!!

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1 hour ago, JTQ said:

 

 "No occupants", has the potential to take a real bite, not an issue for caravanners only motorhomers, of course.

I am guessing about 30lts of water and then tools, ramps, manuals, screen cover, etc. As we unloaded I weighed almost every item and was about 40kg out from the second weigh in. Burster give you 8kg of jack etc but no spare wheel ! It was a good exercise and we both now have a better idea of what not to take. The temptation with having a garage is to throw it in just in case but will stop that. With some more care I think we can keep legal and still have a pair of bikes loaded. Also plan to change the huge table Burstner supply for something smaller and lighter but thats another story.

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