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17 minutes ago, logiclee said:

250 miles would do most people for a week and if you could get that in 20 minutes whilst in the supermarket or B&Q, retail parks etc then that would probably be OK for the majority of town/city dwellers.

What you say is fine for a local "run about" vehicle but absolutely useless if you want to travel further in a day. The days of personal transport for distance travel may soon become a thing of the past - and caravans, motorhomes etc., may well become casualties of this :(

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A good question. There are four distinct methods of producing hydrogen and currently 96% of it comes from fossil fuels with steam reforming the most common. This is the cheapest method but is not carb

Most manufacturers have determined that the future will be Hydrogen, or more likely a mix of Electric and Hydrogen/Electric hybrids.

There is a lot of rubbish misinformation on this thread about Hydrogen Fuel Cells, but if anyone really wants to understand what they are, how they work and why they will be the ultimate answer to zer

24 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

I really don't think Boris & co have thought this one out well enough do you? 

In this post, most of the discussion has been about battery technology versus fuel cell technology. The main disadvantage of batteries is access to charging and the time it takes to charge. In my view, the coming years will see an emphasis on the charging solutions via a transition to inductive "passive" charging both static (parking) and moving (motorways etc).

The post topic relates to the problem(s) associated with moving away from ICE vehicles for the government regarding the considerable revenue it receives from such vehicles. This can be addressed, in part, by passive charging. This solution would enable cars to charge and owners to be billed regardless of where they live without new technology. Installing inductive charging where cars park would be challenging but not out of the question. This technology is already being trialled for buses/taxi ranks etc. Charging while driving is another matter but may come to fruition and would go to addressing concerns relating to heavy goods vehicles, towing etc. (personally I would like to see moving goods by train rather than road but that is another discussion).

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Gordon said:

What you say is fine for a local "run about" vehicle but absolutely useless if you want to travel further in a day. The days of personal transport for distance travel may soon become a thing of the past - and caravans, motorhomes etc., may well become casualties of this :(

 

I did say for the majority and not everyone. 

 

If the UK had decent public transport and a comparable price to road transport like Japan we wouldn't be too worried.  

But the UK has relied on personal transport so we have more of a challenge.

 

Not in my lifetime but yes driving your own car will become a thing of the past eventually as we move towards self driving short lease car use.

 

We don't know timescales but yes I think touring caravans will become harder to own within a couple of decades.

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Interesting video. I'm not a forward thinker,  nor particularly intelligent. It's been informative to hear the view of someone who not only is, but is knowledgeable about the subject.

 

The glaring omission from that vid, that Harris mentioned, but Cooper glossed over, was battery material sourcing, and the environmental damage and restrictions caused by it. A comparison of that to the environmental impact of producing ICE and its fuel would be another big part of the argument.

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46 minutes ago, Fireman Iain said:

Interesting video. I'm not a forward thinker,  nor particularly intelligent. It's been informative to hear the view of someone who not only is, but is knowledgeable about the subject.

 

 

Don't put yourself down!

One of the key signs of wisdom is an awareness of your own shortcomings!

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1 hour ago, Fireman Iain said:

The glaring omission from that vid, that Harris mentioned, but Cooper glossed over, was battery material sourcing, and the environmental damage and restrictions caused by it. A comparison of that to the environmental impact of producing ICE and its fuel would be another big part of the argument.

I quite agree.   Problem is anything manufactured has both an environmental and a political impact.  So progress is going to be incremental not revolutionary and not always positive.   Two certainties are the future will be different and our predictions of the future will be wrong.  

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Let me intercede at this point and say how refreshing it is to have a well informed and well mannered discussion on this subject, which for some can be quite emotive and has in some places around the web disintegrated into nothing better than a slanging match. 

 

There are some good points I want to come back on, firstly regarding passive, or induction charging. There are some cars which don't have to be plugged in to charge, I believe Mercedes made an induction charging option for their S class, so instead of plugging in you drive into your garage or driveway and position the car over an induction loop and once properly located and you switch the car off it lowers a induction charger over the pad and charges your car. The problem with this system is that induction charging in such slower than wired, and much, much slower than even the fast chargers in place today. In terms of charging on the move this has been trialed in Scandinavia but you cannot put charge into a car as fast is it is being used, so this would me a modest range extender at best, and digging up all the roads to install such a system would be very expensive. 

 

I've seen the video with Chris Harris and Graeme Cooper a number of times and I have tried to analyse it for actual answers, but watch it carefully and you will note there are very few. Take the first question Harris asks, do we have the capacity for all the charging we would need? There is no answer, Cooper goes onto tell us how he recharges his car overnight when the grid has spare capacity and it is a very sensible and effective way of doing so, at this moment in time. But think down the line, will it support 30 or 40 million cars all doing the same in an age when domestic heating at least is also calling on the grid supply at night, because we are moving away from gas to heat our homes. Mr Cooper doesn't answer, but I can tell you now it will not. 

 

I'm afraid the rest of the video continues in much the same vein. It doesn't provide answers but continues the vein of what might be possible, what could happen, which is much what I said earlier about the BEV industry. Cooper had the opportunity to allay fears on electricity production for BEV charging by saying yes, but could not do so. A better interviewer than Harris would have pushed that point for an answer. 

 

It should also be noted who Graeme Cooper is, he is a project director from the National Grid which is a utility supply company which stands to benefit massively from the migration to electric cars. That's OK I hear you way, as we all own the national grid, don't we? Well actually no we don't, it was sold off as part of the energy privatisation and is owned by private investors for whose interests Mr Cooper is employed to protect. Don't let the BBC Top Gear logos fool you, what your are watching is not a documentary, but an advertisement for the National Grid, it's "pitch" for the biggest slice of the zero carbon car market it can get. It is not much different from interviewing  Sheik Mohammed of Saudi Arabia on the benefits of continued petrol and diesel use. 

 

The one area where the BEV argument is well ahead of Hydrogen in the UK at least is in lobbying. Most people will know how government works, if you don't then let me give you a brief insight. For every politician we have, by that I mean MP of which there are 650 we have dozens of "advisors" and "lobbyists" and thousands of civil servants. I'm trying not to make this political because it doesn't matter what colour tie the Prime Minister of the day is wearing, the system works just the same. It is these people who will inform the cabinet ministers what future policy is best, that minister then persuades cabinet, cabinet draws up a policy and the government then implement it. Rarely is the legislation or policy which is enacted the actual idea of a politician and the BEV market is miles ahead in that respect, largely because it is led by massive international companies like National Grid plc, whereas the lobby for hydrogen is led by a couple of fellows from Wales with sideburns and tweed caps*.

 

Ultimately, what we drive in ten, twenty or so years time will depend very much on what the manufacturers want, and there output will be determined by the large global markets, mainly China and the USA. The fact that the UK government is planning to ban the sale of cars using any form of petrol or diesel engine by 2035 is of little interest to the words major manufacturers who have their own agenda and timescales, most of which would see them stop selling such vehicles before that date anyway. But what form of vehicles are made available when that ban comes into force will most likely be what Toyota, GM, Ford et al decide. 

 

I do agree with Fred, whatever we envisage for the future, the truth will very likely be different. I have even heard suggestions that motor-rail will make a return, who remembers and ever used that?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by PMW

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15 hours ago, Mr Plodd said:

Not too sure about the “few layers stopping a bullet” the stuffs only one ATOM thick !!

I would have thought so before spending time at Nottm university nano dept.   I hate using the term ‘google it’. But in this case it should convince you. 

Kia KX 3 auto / Bailey Alicanto Grande Estoril and Swift Challenger 570 (2010 model Not towed - used as a static)
 

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Problems facing electric car drivers were highlighted in the Guardian today where a couple who have a fully electric  Porsche Taycan 4S took 9 hours to travel 130 miles. They left Bournemouth with 45 miles range left and followed the cars navigation system to the nearest fast charger. It was out of order and had been for around 3 weeks according to a parking attendant. After visiting several more chargers, (all not working), they managed to get a free boost charge from a Porsche garage to get them to a motorway service. When they got there, they found a fast charger with a woman using it. She told them that she'd managed to get it working by phoning the helpline but that the helpline was closing. After visiting several more charging points, (none working), they eventually found a working one and managed to put enough charge to get them home with 11% power left. They thought that they'd just been unlucky, so her husband  drove to the local town the following day where there is a car park with three charging points. None of them were working. Then he drove to a local pub with a charger. Not working. Then he went to their local BP station with a charger. Not working. There was no helpline number and the assistant couldn't help and told him that it was nothing to do with him. The couple said that they could charge it overnight at home, but the reliability of public chargers was a worry. (Miles Brignall, The Guardian, 28/11/20.)

Until the government get something sorted regarding public vehicle charging, the growth of electric vehicle use is going to be very slow indeed.

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6 hours ago, logiclee said:

 

The key will be to move away from petrol station thinking.

 

To have charging stations where you would leave your car for half an hour. 

 

250 miles would do most people for a week and if you could get that in 20 minutes whilst in the supermarket or B&Q, retail parks etc then that would probably be OK for the majority of town/city dwellers.

 

That still doesn’t do away with need to have 

a, A lot of space available to accommodate cars whilst they are charging. 

b, Drivers who are happy to “waste” the time it takes for their EV’s to charge. 

 

The above is still totally reliant on fast chargers both being available and EV cars having batteries capable of taking a fast charge. 

 

Then there is the elephant in the room, EV cars cost a LOT more money than ICE ones, the cheapest (currently) is around the £30k mark and not many can afford any sort of new car anyway!

 

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Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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20 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

Then there is the elephant in the room, EV cars cost a LOT more money than ICE ones, the cheapest (currently) is around the £30k mark and not many can afford any sort of new car anyway!

Seat Mii EV <£20k just

Mini electric  £24400

Not arguing that these are the best or even good EV’s but they are indisputably less than £30k from mainstream makers

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2 hours ago, Fireman Iain said:

PMW, you've made a lot of thought provoking points on here.  Can I be a bit cheeky and ask what, if any, professional interest you have in the automotive/grid/hydrogen FCE industries?

 

 

In a research capacity in the past, though due to the nature of the beast I am not a liberty to say in what manner or who for. I am no longer involved as the contract ended. I genuinely find it a fascinating debate. Looking at facts, A vs B there seems no contest between the two systems to me, but as we have seen in the past where conflicting technologies emerge, the best or more sensible option doesn't always become the one adopted. 

 

Edited by PMW

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********* Naughty Step Aficionado And Grand Collector Of Naughty Points *********

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8 hours ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

The difference being your current visit to the fuel station takes 4-5 minutes from start to finish, not the hours that an EV requires. Some  EV’s can recharge in 20-30 minutes IF they can access a high capacity charger, but they are few and far between. 

 

Think about how many cars visit a current fuel station in an hour, each taking say 5 minutes. How are you going to accommodate that many EV’s for an hour at a time?  In addition the “supply” of vehicles coming in doesn’t stop so it’s always a rolling hour.

 

Plus, think how much space would need to be allocated for each EV whilst it’s being charged! Most urban fuel stations have space for a maximum of 12 -15 cars at any one time so once all of those EV recharge points are occupied where does the EV driver go? To the next (full up) recharging station?? Most urban fuel stations don’t have the room to expand to take 50+ EV’s at any one (long) time do they? 

 

All of the above problems need to be totally sorted out in the short 9 years before ICE cars are no longer available. It may be even less than that because the manufacturers are not going to keep producing ICE cars right up until 2030 as they wont be permitted to sell them, so the availability of new ICE cars is going to drop off pretty quickly, and that will put more pressure on the available EV charging points. 

 

I really don't think Boris & co have thought this one out well enough do you? 

I did say “ I have to remain optimistic that the electric car industry will resolve the issues of charging place and speed in the years to come. “

Whether that’s at the redundant roadside real estate or expanding supermarket, retail shopping and public parking areas....the time required to charge still needs to be drastically speeded up.

 

 

 

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