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Hi,

 It has been worked out by some group or other that a journey from London to York (and i presume back again ) would cost £533 in pay per mile charges,,.When one thinks of the fuel tax, road tax,&now some sort of milage tax do wonder what it will do to us, that is caravaners. Will we have to pay for the car per mile &likwise for the caravan ? In case you dont know its that way in the Mersey tunnel--they consider the caravan as a seperate vehicle for tunnel tolls.....

So when its brought in (and it will in some form ) will visitors from abroad pay, what will it do to tourism, holidays &our pastime ?

Perhaps the package holiday people will be happy......

Dave

Skoda Scout 4x4 pulling a coachman Amara 520/4 at 93%---- when full!

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A good question. There are four distinct methods of producing hydrogen and currently 96% of it comes from fossil fuels with steam reforming the most common. This is the cheapest method but is not carb

Most manufacturers have determined that the future will be Hydrogen, or more likely a mix of Electric and Hydrogen/Electric hybrids.

There is a lot of rubbish misinformation on this thread about Hydrogen Fuel Cells, but if anyone really wants to understand what they are, how they work and why they will be the ultimate answer to zer

There is a thread running on this already in Caravan Chat. 

Ern

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Running an electric car is considerably cheaper than buying petrol.  I think you will most likely find that it balances itself out .... You save £20 in petrol but pay out £20 for the miles you have driven.  There is a HUGE amount of guessing as to what the amount per mile would be ..... And a lot of individuals are aiming high in the hope that their figures will incite panic ..... Some of those figures are being created by the petroleum industry which kinda have their finger in the pie.  

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It's clear that the methods of taxing the use of vehicles will need to change with the government signalling the end of ICE, and probably sooner than that considering the impact of Covid.

The revenue earned from fuel duty must be negligible this year compared to previous years. I've just done my books for this year , last year between April and November on average the fuel cost for each of my three vehicles was £2476, this year the same period is £644, we have seen around a corresponding 30% decrease in revenue, but that is recovering (thanks Brexit) . The mileage reduction is due in part to finding alternative ways of working that do not require travelling, some of which has been facilitated by changes to legislation, so we dont anticipate having to return fully to the old ways.

So, if other businesses are in the same position going forward the government receipts from fuel duty must be massively impacted. That will need to be replaced with something.

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8 hours ago, YorkshireLhasa said:

Running an electric car is considerably cheaper than buying petrol.  I think you will most likely find that it balances itself out .... You save £20 in petrol but pay out £20 for the miles you have driven.  There is a HUGE amount of guessing as to what the amount per mile would be ..... And a lot of individuals are aiming high in the hope that their figures will incite panic ..... Some of those figures are being created by the petroleum industry which kinda have their finger in the pie.  

I still need to run a proper analysis for this . My current cars (Diesel) cost around 26K new, the closest equivalent full electric is closer to 46K after subsidies etc. Each one over 3 years uses about 8K in fuel and further 2K in servicing, VED etc.  Redidual after depreciation is about 11K

So at the moment each costs about 25K over 3 years.

Depreciation and residuals on the electric are guesswork, but there seems to be a big gap between what it costs now and what it will cost.

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56 minutes ago, Towtug said:

I still need to run a proper analysis for this . My current cars (Diesel) cost around 26K new, the closest equivalent full electric is closer to 46K after subsidies etc. Each one over 3 years uses about 8K in fuel and further 2K in servicing, VED etc.  Redidual after depreciation is about 11K

So at the moment each costs about 25K over 3 years.

Depreciation and residuals on the electric are guesswork, but there seems to be a big gap between what it costs now and what it will cost.

Fine to work it out that way if you are comparing buying new but most already own a petrol or diesel car.

They need to work out from "today" what running their existing car will be against buying a new car today and running if for x years.

 

macafee2

 

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I have a pal who has just taken delivery of fully electric Hyundai Kona and he doesn’t stop crowing about how little it is costing him to run. However he seems incapable of grasping the fact that the petrol version costs around £20k and his 64kwh EV one £38k  Almost twice as much for basically the same car :o

 

His Kona is not a bad car, but to my mind I could buy something a lot nicer  for the same money, or split the difference and leave myself within £9k to spend on fuel.

Then of course there’s the matter of residual value. When his is say five years old who is going to want to buy it with the prospect of having to purchase a new battery pack (multi thousand pound cost) for it looming on the horizon? Most diesel powered cars are good for well over 150k Miles, are EV’s the same? Don’t think anyone knows do they?,

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Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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Our Vectra diesel estate is near to 169k, still purring along. :D

Soon it will be time to replace it, but with what? 

Don't want an electric car, too much faff to have to charge it, our mileage is high, don't know much about the self charging car, so another diesel or petrol car will be on the agenda. 

Nissan X trail? Or does anyone know better? 

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1 hour ago, Mr Plodd said:

I have a pal who has just taken delivery of fully electric Hyundai Kona and he doesn’t stop crowing about how little it is costing him to run. However he seems incapable of grasping the fact that the petrol version costs around £20k and his 64kwh EV one £38k  Almost twice as much for basically the same car :o

 

His Kona is not a bad car, but to my mind I could buy something a lot nicer  for the same money, or split the difference and leave myself within £9k to spend on fuel.

Then of course there’s the matter of residual value. When his is say five years old who is going to want to buy it with the prospect of having to purchase a new battery pack (multi thousand pound cost) for it looming on the horizon? Most diesel powered cars are good for well over 150k Miles, are EV’s the same? Don’t think anyone knows do they?,

I have a friend with over 400,000 miles on his diesel engine but then he has a long drive to work. Met a taxi driver with the sane engine and over 500,000 miles. 

 

macafee2

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1 hour ago, Lady Bird said:

Our Vectra diesel estate is near to 169k, still purring along. :D

Soon it will be time to replace it, but with what? 

Don't want an electric car, too much faff to have to charge it, our mileage is high, don't know much about the self charging car, so another diesel or petrol car will be on the agenda. 

Nissan X trail? Or does anyone know better? 

Think you can do better than an x trail,  reviews say they're a bit old hat and massive depreciation but Good if you buy 2nd hand. Tiguan, Kodiaq, Passat estate, xc60 BMW x3/5 come to mind? Sorento Santa fe sportage?

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I doubt anyone has any idea as to what a mileage charge will be. It is needed because the loss of tax as ICE vehicles die out and the loss has to  be replaced, it will probably mean the sale of electric vehicles will drop as the cost advantage will be lost though. The charge can be varied on where you  are and the time of day so you may have to choose your route and travel times better than now.

The savings on fuel look very good. My nephew says he can get 200 miles for £5 out of his. Our council has just bought an electric dustbin lorry and is trumpeting that both on environmental grounds and running costs. They reckon the diesel ones use £100 of fuel a day, the electric £15. They have not compared purchase prices though.

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2 hours ago, Mr Plodd said:

Most diesel powered cars are good for well over 150k Miles, are EV’s the same? Don’t think anyone knows do they?,

 

Plus, the driving time taken to hypothetically cover 150,000 miles in a diesel, including time to re-fuel and distance between refuelling would be far less than in an EV, then if you add a caravan into the equation..................🤷‍♂️😉

Common sense isn't a gift, it's a punishment because you have to deal with everyone who doesn't have it.  :rolleyes:

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Is there any point in this discussion?

We have no idea how such a charge would be calculated, how it would be measured, whether it would also apply to IC powered vehicles, when it would start. Truly more questions than answers.

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49 minutes ago, Wildwood said:

Our council has just bought an electric dustbin lorry and is trumpeting that both on environmental grounds and running costs. They reckon the diesel ones use £100 of fuel a day, the electric £15.

 

I guess you'll be asking them when you can expect to see a saving on your council tax then? OK, maybe not :rolleyes:

 

When we bought the Benz two years ago I seriously tried to make an argument for a plug in hybrid at least, the available all electric cars would not suit what we need. I looked at the Mitsubishi, the V60 Diesel PHEV but after a lot of research I decided taking the risk on the battery pack of a second hand 60-80k vehicle was a risk too far. OK, some people are happy to trumpet their vehicle at 100k, 120k even 150k on original batteries but you don't have to look to far to find instances of owners with problems, some as low as 40k miles. Nissan seem to claim a zero failure rate on Leaf batteries until you drill down into that and lots of issues have been discounted for various "technical reasons". If you own the battery out of warranty and it breaks the reason doesn't really matter, it's still you footing the bill of several thousand pounds to replace it. I keep my cars long term and put big mileages on them. I fully agree with Mr Plodd, battery anxiety is something I can do without. 

 

I plan to grow old gracefully, or otherwise with what I have now. 

Mercedes E350 CDi AMG Cabriolet, Lunar Freelander 640EW Twin Axle @1700kg

********* Naughty Step Aficionado And Grand Collector Of Naughty Points *********

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In five, ten years time perhaps technology will have moved on, cars run on water?  fresh air? Who knows. 

Thank you Jezzerb for your thoughts. 

Who knows what our next car shall be. 

 

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39 minutes ago, Stevan said:

Is there any point in this discussion?

We have no idea how such a charge would be calculated, how it would be measured, whether it would also apply to IC powered vehicles, when it would start. Truly more questions than answers.

Very true that none of us knows what the future holds. That's no reason for not discussing the possibilities for future transport though; CT is after all, a discussion forum.

Gordon

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Fourwinds Hurricane 31D Motorhome. Also MGTF135 1. 8i Roadster (fun) & Volvo V70 3.2Ltr LPG (everyday car)
Unless otherwise stated, my posts will be my personal thoughts and have the same standing as any other member of Caravan Talk.

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47 minutes ago, PMW said:

 

I guess you'll be asking them when you can expect to see a saving on your council tax then? OK, maybe not :rolleyes:

 

When we bought the Benz two years ago I seriously tried to make an argument for a plug in hybrid at least, the available all electric cars would not suit what we need. I looked at the Mitsubishi, the V60 Diesel PHEV but after a lot of research I decided taking the risk on the battery pack of a second hand 60-80k vehicle was a risk too far. OK, some people are happy to trumpet their vehicle at 100k, 120k even 150k on original batteries but you don't have to look to far to find instances of owners with problems, some as low as 40k miles. Nissan seem to claim a zero failure rate on Leaf batteries until you drill down into that and lots of issues have been discounted for various "technical reasons". If you own the battery out of warranty and it breaks the reason doesn't really matter, it's still you footing the bill of several thousand pounds to replace it. I keep my cars long term and put big mileages on them. I fully agree with Mr Plodd, battery anxiety is something I can do without. 

 

I plan to grow old gracefully, or otherwise with what I have now. 

I plan on growing old utterly disgracefully ....... 😜.   And I don't plan on worrying about something that I have no control over, or for which decisions are nowhere near being made.  

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Most manufacturers have determined that the future will be Hydrogen, or more likely a mix of Electric and Hydrogen/Electric hybrids.

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Mercedes E350 CDi AMG Cabriolet, Lunar Freelander 640EW Twin Axle @1700kg

********* Naughty Step Aficionado And Grand Collector Of Naughty Points *********

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30 minutes ago, PMW said:

Most manufacturers have determined that the future will be Hydrogen, 

 

The evidence for that is where exactly???

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Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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As Andy says-really am not seeing much evidence of this here at the mo-bit more investment in Europe but there are only 2 hydrogen fuel cell cars available I think-a Toyota Mirai and a Hyundai Nexo-horrendously expensive so you can actually lease one-and only a tiny handful of hydrogen filling points-mostly round the south-EVs seem the way we're in the uk at least going at the mo.

A kilogramme of hydrogen costs around £10 in the UK. As a guide, the Mirai’s fuel tank holds five kilogrammes, so it isn’t that much cheaper at the moment to use hydrogen compared to petrol or diesel – and it’s a lot more expensive than recharging an electric car.

The full list of hydrogen refuelling stations in the UK

HyFive 2, Rainham, Essex (RM13 8EU)

Sainsbury's, Hendon, London (NW9 6JX)

Hatton Cross, London (TW6 2GE)

HyFive 1, Teddington, Surrey (TW11 0LY)

HyFive 3, M25 Cobham Services, Surrey (KT11 3JS)

M40 Beaconsfield Services, Buckinghamshire (HP9 2SE)

Honda Manufacturing, Swindon, Wiltshire (SN3 4QS)

University of South Wales, Glyntaff, Pontypridd, Wales (CF37 4BD)

University of South Wales, Bagran, Port Talbot, Wales (SA12 7AX)

Coventry University, West Midlands (CV1 2HG)

University of Birmingham, West Midlands (B15 2FG)

ITM Power, Rotherham, South Yorkshire (S60 5WG)

European Hydrogen Transport Project, Aberdeen, Scotland (AB25 3RF)

Contrary to what  you have stated PMW I think we're a long way from it being the answer.

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2 hours ago, PMW said:

Most manufacturers have determined that the future will be Hydrogen, or more likely a mix of Electric and Hydrogen/Electric hybrids.

I deal with motor manufacturers every day of the week, some of the projects wont see the light of day for 8-10 years, none are currently seriously looking at hydrogen, all are electric.

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While there is some push for Hydrogen in Asian markets especially from those wanting to export Hydrogen instead of oil there's very little interest in the West, legislation for future decades firmly in the EV camp.

Although Hydrogen for electricity grid stabalisation and heating looks more interesting.

 

If we had decent public transport then you could go down the Japan model where car journeys are priced such that it's not much more and far quicker and easier to use train/monorail.

 

ie Tokyo to Sendai approx 225miles (Road)

 

Car approx 4.5 to 5 hours £40 to £50 fuel and tolls (Depending on route)

Train (Shinkensen) 90 minutes £50 to £80 depending on rail card. 

 

Edited by logiclee

Yeti 2.0TDi DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Citigo ASG, Swift Challenger.

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57 minutes ago, Babstreefern said:

So, what we're saying, for keeping costs down, buy a horse:lol:

Only if it has a catalytic converter attached to it's backside for the methane emissions 🤣🤣

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6 hours ago, Wildwood said:

I doubt anyone has any idea as to what a mileage charge will be. It is needed because the loss of tax as ICE vehicles die out and the loss has to  be replaced, it will probably mean the sale of electric vehicles will drop as the cost advantage will be lost though. The charge can be varied on where you  are and the time of day so you may have to choose your route and travel times better than now.

The savings on fuel look very good. My nephew says he can get 200 miles for £5 out of his. Our council has just bought an electric dustbin lorry and is trumpeting that both on environmental grounds and running costs. They reckon the diesel ones use £100 of fuel a day, the electric £15. They have not compared purchase prices though.

I'd be curious about range that bin lorry has. I drive an 18t rigid truck with a refrigeration unit built in. I hear that our trial of an electric truck was a fail. Because the batteries just can't last to run the fridge and make drive around for very long. 

 

The bin lorry surely will drain it's battery operating the machinery at the back. 

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