Government to introduce road tolls ?

[stevew1]

This looks worrying , get your driving in while you can ?.

 

Charges for using roads to fill £40bn black hole .

 

Rishi Sunak is considering plans to charge motorists for using Britain’s roads amid concerns over a £40 billion tax shortfall created by the switch to electric cars.

A Treasury paper on a new national road pricing scheme has been presented to the chancellor. The government will announce this week that a ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel cars, which forms part of the prime minister’s ten-point plan on climate change, will be brought forward to 2030.

Downing Street wants to seize the initiative after days of damaging briefings between allies of Boris Johnson’s former adviser Dominic Cummings and his fiancée, Carrie Symonds.

 

The rise in popularity of electric cars could leave the Treasury with a £40 billion funding gap.

Fuel duty, which is charged at 57.95p a litre on petrol and diesel vehicles, is on course to raise £27.5 billion this financial year, equivalent to 1.3 per cent of national income, according to latest forecasts. Vehicle excise duty, which is charged on the purchase of cars based on the level of emissions, will raise £7.1 billion, while VAT on fuel is worth £5.7 billion.

A paper last year by the Institute for Fiscal Studies said that the transition to green vehicles would pose a “huge long-run fiscal challenge for the government”. It said that the government’s commitment to cut carbon emissions to net zero by the middle of the century “means that revenue from fuel duties will completely disappear over the next few decades”.

Road charging has long been regarded as politically toxic, with successive governments fearing a backlash from motorists. The Labour government ditched similar plans 13 years ago after a public uproar and the Conservatives have been reluctant to seriously consider the switch.

Road pricing in Britain is largely limited to the M6 toll road in the West Midlands, which costs up to £6.70 for cars and £12 for HGVs on weekdays.

 

Any charging system would probably have to use a form of vehicle-tracking technology already prevalent in modern cars. In 2018, a £1.1 million government-backed trial was launched to use technology to track real-time emissions from 1,000 vehicles.

The Times has called for a 2030 phase-out of petrol and diesel vehicles as part of the Clean Air for All campaign, which was launched last year to highlight the public health hazard posed by pollution.

A Treasury source said: “The Treasury regularly explores lots of different policy options. This is no different.”

 

The last bit is worrying ,  Big Brother & all that !.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Oscarmax]

Wow

 

Apparently this has recently been considered before the COVID19, they were looking at Toll Charges on the Smart Motorway Network, pushing all back onto the A roads (until that catches up)

Edited November 16, 2020 by Oscarmax

[Silversurf]

It could address the oft mooted ' remove road tax but increase fuel duty ' idea, so that those who used the roads more, paid more, those that used them less, paid less.

 

Not that difficult these days with the tech that's about.

 

Obviously based on mileage, with possibly different rates for sizes/weights/types of vehicles and different rates for certain routes, congested etc.

 

Your options on your sat nav. could then be, fastest, shortest, most expensive, cheapest.??

 

 

[stevew1]

But would people who owned petrol/ diesel vehicles be exempt from the road tolls as they would still be paying fuel duty & vat . You couldn’t have people penalised twice could you !!!!! ???.

 

if the answer is ‘ yes ‘ there won’t be many petrol/ diesel car sales in the late 20’s .

[Towtug]

This didnt take alot of foresight I'm surprised anyone is shocked by this. 

The government insists on the death of all ICE including hybrids by 2035, it's really nothing to do with the popularity of electric vehicles. So they engineer the demise to their timescale, and obviously know how much of a reduction in revenue that means. The real question is how it is replaced. Will it be a question of road pricing, increasing tax on your general electricity supply, or more likely a combination of both.

 

I can pretty much guarantee that the during the next 9 years , considering the additional cost of electric cars, the infrastructure and the revenue recovery, your motoring is not going to get cheaper.

[Wildwood]

Bearing in mind that as electric cars come more common there is bound to be some change in the way motoring is taxed. The advantage of electric cars could soon be lost as taxing petrol and diesel becomes less productive. 

Unless someone comes up with a better solution it looks inevitable in the long run.

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, Towtug said:

This didnt take alot of foresight I'm surprised anyone is shocked by this. 

The government insists on the death of all ICE including hybrids by 2035, it's really nothing to do with the popularity of electric vehicles. So they engineer the demise to their timescale, and obviously know how much of a reduction in revenue that means. The real question is how it is replaced. Will it be a question of road pricing, increasing tax on your general electricity supply, or more likely a combination of both.

 

I can pretty much guarantee that the during the next 9 years , considering the additional cost of electric cars, the infrastructure and the revenue recovery, your motoring is not going to get cheaper.

 

Agreed.  When I took my new job in January one of the terms I insisted on was being "home based" to ensure that every journey during the week for work can be claimed back.  Motoring has never been cheap, it's going to get even less so in the not to distant future.

[Dave Capiro owner]

1 hour ago, stevew1 said:

 

Any charging system would probably have to use a form of vehicle-tracking technology already prevalent in modern cars. In 2018, a £1.1 million government-backed trial was launched to use technology to track real-time emissions from 1,000 vehicles.

The Times has called for a 2030 phase-out of petrol and diesel vehicles as part of the Clean Air for All campaign, which was launched last year to highlight the public health hazard posed by pollution.

A Treasury source said: “The Treasury regularly explores lots of different policy options. This is no different.”

 

The last bit is worrying ,  Big Brother & all that !.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

James May was in the news over the weekend, he thinks his Tesla was updated over night ( Grant Shapps also remarked on this).

 

So if EV's can have their firmware upgraded remotely then this opens up the possibilities for cars to be monitored, and controlled,  by the authorities.

[Cheltenham Caravanner]

Why does it have to be technology based ?

 

After 3 years cars have to have an MOT where the mileage could be recorded and a charge based on miles done.

 

So slight change to the rules so that an annual inspection is required, or on change of ownership

 

Can't say I particularly like paying taxes but this could work.

 

The problem I see with electric cars is that unless there are some dramatic improvements in battery technology it is going to kill the touring caravan market.

 

 

 

[daveat92]

There's no such thing as a "free lunch".

If you want something, be it :- money to stay at home during pandemics; "eat out to help out" subsidised meals; free schooling; NHS; roads; no potholes; national defence; streets cleaned; bins emptied; police and courts service; social security; etc, etc, etc, you have to pay for it.

[Laurent]

Just work in progress. There are subsidies on electric cars to encourage ownership. Once that has succeeded then electric car users will have to start paying their way. It has always cost money to run a car. It will continue to do so.  
 

It is just evolution. The car manufacturers will & are already driving this by beginning to phase out their diesel options & increasing hybrid & electric options.

[Jacko1]

8 minutes ago, Cheltenham Caravanner said:

The problem I see with electric cars is that unless there are some dramatic improvements in battery technology it is going to kill the touring caravan market.

 

 

 

They do not say you cant use a diesel or petrol vehicle from that date just you cant buy a new one. There are going to be many applications that do not suit electric vehicles so they will carry on being used, just look at the classic car market that is still going strong. Admittedly fuel and tax is most likely going to change but the petrol and diesel powered vehicles will survive for a long time yet. You never know as the date draws closer the values may even creep up as people decide they need a petrol or diesel vehicle for their particular needs.

What will be interesting is as the development with things like Hydrogen or the other raft of alternative fuels become more acceptable which rely on a ICE type engine to perform will be accepted in this 'electric catch all'??

 

How's that for a glass half full comment... 

[Oscarmax]

 

Germany has already started the ball rolling

https://berlinspectator.com/2019/04/26/germany-to-introduce-autobahn-toll-next-year/

 

[Ern]

Basically, we (The Nation) need £40Billion revenue from somewhere.  We need to transfer the £40B back to motoring., and ensure that the tax is usage based. Dump VED, Dump fuel duty, Raise VAT from the existing 5% to 20% on electricity. That gives a level playing field for energy taxation. EV's and Electricity to power them must be equitably taxed.  Short term, for ICE vehicles just raise the Fuel Duty to compensate for the lost VED revenue so that ICE motoring is also taxed on useage not ownership.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Ern

[Silversurf]

27 minutes ago, Cheltenham Caravanner said:

Why does it have to be technology based ?

 

After 3 years cars have to have an MOT where the mileage could be recorded and a charge based on miles done.

 

So slight change to the rules so that an annual inspection is required, or on change of ownership

 

Can't say I particularly like paying taxes but this could work.

 

The problem I see with electric cars is that unless there are some dramatic improvements in battery technology it is going to kill the touring caravan market.

 

 

 

It would have to be technology based due to logging mileage, varying prices for roads driven, pricing and possibly payment, monthly DD  for miles used ?

 

So for the first three years no payment ?

 

Mileage is recorded on the MOT, once per year, so a bill would arrive once per year for mileage used ? lots of fun when cars change hands and what if you didn't pay ?

 

There are thousands of cars on the road already with no mot or tax due to the remote chance of them being stopped and prosecuted.

 

 

[daveat92]

5 minutes ago, Silversurf said:

It would have to be technology based due to logging mileage, varying prices for roads driven, pricing and possibly payment, monthly DD  for miles used ?

 

So for the first three years no payment ?

 

Mileage is recorded on the MOT, once per year, so a bill would arrive once per year for mileage used ? lots of fun when cars change hands and what if you didn't pay ?

 

There are thousands of cars on the road already with no mot or tax due to the remote chance of them being stopped and prosecuted.

 

 

There are undoubtedly, many cars as you describe, but do you have any proof that there are "thousands"?

Police vehicles have ANPR technology that is always switched on and gives real time information on the vehicle's legality, and the police do stop those that are flagged.

[Silversurf]

18 minutes ago, daveat92 said:

There are undoubtedly, many cars as you describe, but do you have any proof that there are "thousands"?

Police vehicles have ANPR technology that is always switched on and gives real time information on the vehicle's legality, and the police do stop those that are flagged.

Yes !

634,000 untaxed vehicles

Government estimates 634,000 untaxed vehicles on UK roads

........................................................................................................................................

Better still are the uninsured figures, from MIB data:

 

3,000 per day caught out of 1,000,000, not good is it ?

 

1 million drivers uninsured every day in the UK

Around 3,000 drivers caught per day

1.5 million cars caught and seized in the last 10 years

 

............................................................................................................................................

 

How many ANPR-equipped vehicles do police forces run?

 

Some police vehicles have them fitted, but they are a low percentage of the fleets, hence the abysmal apprehension rates for no tax, insurance and MOT.

 

That's why I said " There are thousands of cars on the road already with no mot or tax due to the remote chance of them being stopped and prosecuted." !

 

Not all police vehicles will be equipped with these cameras and exact figures are hard to come by. A large force such as the Metropolitan Police will have a many camera-equipped cars, while a smaller force such as Dorset has just 18.

 

...................................................................................................................................................

 

Those without MOT's, well, that also will be in the thousands, again the apprehension of whom will be in low numbers and pot luck.

[stevew1]

2 hours ago, GaryB1969 said:

 

Agreed.  When I took my new job in January one of the terms I insisted on was being "home based" to ensure that every journey during the week for work can be claimed back.  Motoring has never been cheap, it's going to get even less so in the not to distant future.

When I took my retirement in 2008 one of the terms I insisted on was NOT being home based , Covid has ruined that plan . I’m sure the Government are even now looking for more & more inventive ways to screw more tax out of us .

2 hours ago, daveat92 said:

There's no such thing as a "free lunch".

If you want something, be it :- money to stay at home during pandemics; "eat out to help out" subsidised meals; free schooling; NHS; roads; no potholes; national defence; streets cleaned; bins emptied; police and courts service; social security; etc, etc, etc, you have to pay for it.

 

Dont want a free lunch , just don’t want to pay Michelin prices for a retread meal .  ??

[stevew1]

2 hours ago, Cheltenham Caravanner said:

Why does it have to be technology based ?

 

After 3 years cars have to have an MOT where the mileage could be recorded and a charge based on miles done.

 

So slight change to the rules so that an annual inspection is required, or on change of ownership

 

Can't say I particularly like paying taxes but this could work.

 

The problem I see with electric cars is that unless there are some dramatic improvements in battery technology it is going to kill the touring caravan market.

 

 

 

 

Perhaps they will fit batteries & motors to the caravans manufactured then , solar panels on the roof would give a decent range , wouldn’t need a motor mover either .  ????

[Oscarmax]

3 minutes ago, stevew1 said:

 

Perhaps they will fit batteries & motors to the caravans manufactured then , solar panels on the roof would give a decent range , wouldn’t need a motor mover either .  ????

 

https://www.AL-KO-tech.com/uk/next-generation-trailer-platform

[Leedslad]

    All this is some distance away.  Sales of petrol and diesel cars are set to continue until 2030, so I could ( if I so desired ) buy a new one in say 2029 and run it for 10 years.  By which time I'd be 92 and not too concerned about future developments.  

   Politically,  road charging is something of a hot potato and Labour have already considered it and chickened out, so it's an idea in progress.  It could be some time before any of this stuff takes effect.    

 

     John.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Leedslad

[Silversurf]

23 minutes ago, stevew1 said:

 

Perhaps they will fit batteries & motors to the caravans manufactured then , solar panels on the roof would give a decent range , wouldn’t need a motor mover either .  ????

 

As long as you are happy with a payload of two pair of socks and a handkerchief.

[Woodentop]

3 hours ago, daveat92 said:

There's no such thing as a "free lunch".

If you want something, be it :- money to stay at home during pandemics; "eat out to help out" subsidised meals; free schooling; NHS; roads; no potholes; national defence; streets cleaned; bins emptied; police and courts service; social security; etc, etc, etc, you have to pay for it.

 

No potholes? But there aren't any (or at least very few) inside London. We went down there 18 months ago and couldn't believe how smooth and clean the roads were. Compared with the rest of the country I would guess it must be worth a few mpg!

 

Oh, and where are all the MPs and Civil Servants who make these decisions on roads based? No comment..................

 

[Babstreefern]

This has been talked to death in previous years.  I would think all previous Governments have talked about doing it, but never have.  It should be either road tolls or road tax, not both.

 

Who knows, there may be traffic jams on lanes

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by Babstreefern

[stevew1]

2 hours ago, Oscarmax said:

 

https://www.AL-KO-tech.com/uk/next-generation-trailer-platform

 

Now that looks interesting , cheers .

 

Use a bit of ingenuity in the new van design , get rid of non essentials, in my opinion , like a big oven & microwave & you’ll soon lose some weight.