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All of these methods assume you can generate plug flow.

There is no guarantee that where there is an airway over ‘puddles’ of water in pipe work that the air won’t just flow round them.

 

Unless the velocity of the air is sufficient to displace these pools they may well sit there...in a draught.

 

 

 

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But if you boil it the tea tastes funny

Been caravanning 25 years, always drink water from the Aquaroll, never had any kind of stomach upset   Just in case anyone is interested (Degree from the University of Life)

I find it strange how caravans have been using pipework inside for 50? years, and whilst there must have been a few that suffered freeze damage, the vast majority didn't, certainly once the manufactur

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7 hours ago, ericfield said:

All of these methods assume you can generate plug flow.

There is no guarantee that where there is an airway over ‘puddles’ of water in pipe work that the air won’t just flow round them.

 

Unless the velocity of the air is sufficient to displace these pools they may well sit there...in a draught.

 

 

 

Water is at it's densest at +4°C, and then expands a small amount as it reaches 0°C, but then it stops expanding.

If it has an air gap into which to expand, it will expand into that air gap. So, if as you say, the air can just flow around or over the puddles, it's not a problem, the water will expand into that airspace.

Fill a plastic bottle with water and leave a small air gap above it. Put it in the freezer and see if it splits the bottle. The answer is NO, because the water can expand into the air space. But if you DON'T allow an air gap, it will split the bottle.

 

Try it!

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3 hours ago, daveat92 said:

Water is at it's densest at +4°C, and then expands a small amount as it reaches 0°C, but then it stops expanding.

If it has an air gap into which to expand, it will expand into that air gap. So, if as you say, the air can just flow around or over the puddles, it's not a problem, the water will expand into that airspace.

Fill a plastic bottle with water and leave a small air gap above it. Put it in the freezer and see if it splits the bottle. The answer is NO, because the water can expand into the air space. But if you DON'T allow an air gap, it will split the bottle.

 

Try it!

You are missing the point.
All these devices/methods assume you want to remove every last vestige of the water.  
If you want to completely empty a pipe line you need to generate plug flow....which can’t be done with these sort of airflows/pressures. So you will always leave some water into the pipes.
 

As you rightly say, having ‘headroom’ to expand on freezing is desirable.
 

My point is why bother going to these extra lengths to squeeze out the last drops of water when it isn’t necessary ...as you point out.

 

 

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As already said years ago in HERE under winterisation :-

 

Have you got a wet and dry vacuum? Drain your tanks and suck out any residual water through the taps but make sure the drain tap is open before hand. It is the most effective way and the inboard filters will not have to be removed either.

 

I feel happier sucking from each tap rather than blowing - but thats me I guess.

 

Wet & Dry vacuum illustration

 

More fantastic it can be used as a - vacuum. :D

 

An even double fantastic use for it yesterday was to suck out the anti-freeze from my Alde heating system. Just take the header tank off and suck on the return pipe till I could feel suction on the feed pipe. Then  drain  the remenents from the drain plug - then pour in the G13. Tested the specific gravity. Job done in less than two hours for thirty three quid.:)

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, ericfield said:

You are missing the point.
All these devices/methods assume you want to remove every last vestige of the water.  
If you want to completely empty a pipe line you need to generate plug flow....which can’t be done with these sort of airflows/pressures. So you will always leave some water into the pipes.
 

As you rightly say, having ‘headroom’ to expand on freezing is desirable.
 

My point is why bother going to these extra lengths to squeeze out the last drops of water when it isn’t necessary ...as you point out.

 

What, for me, was close on a litre of water, does not not come under your category 'every last vestige'

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Sam :beardy:   RR Sport HSE Dynamic towing Swift Elegance Grande 845

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Just done mine and got about 1.5 litres of water out of my previously 'drained' system. I purchased a second inlet pipe to make up the unit and my local tyre depot (of whom I am a regular customer) gave me a couple of valves and half a dozen dust caps, so total cost £15.00 (and now I have a spare pipe if needed).

 

I didn't do this with my previous caravan and it MAY not really be necessary, but it makes me feel happier!  :D

 

BH

IMG_20201124_110701692.jpg

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I don't mess about with having to connect electric tyre pumps to the system.   I bought these three JohnGuest 12mm fittings for around a tenner:-

 

IMG_20201114_111017.jpg.b1a2f2b478ac95a73725fb94820f0452.jpg

 

then used the T-junction to connect to the hot pipework.   Now all I need do is reach into the bed locker door and flip the cold drain tap, then turn the new hot drain tap.    On reaching home, there's still a bit of water left in the pipe behind the wheel arch, but a gentle blow into the shower hose easily dislodges that.

 

As Blackhart says, against freezing it isn't always necessary.   My van is parked close to the house and under cover so it's not likely to freeze however, I don't like the idea of water standing to go stagnant.

 

IMG_20201123_152707.thumb.jpg.d0a6c1210c6635cfefc058dab23ffdeb.jpg

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13 minutes ago, Jaydug said:

As Blackhart says, against freezing it isn't always necessary.   My van is parked close to the house and under cover.   However, I don't like the idea of water standing to go stagnant.

That's a good point, I hadn't thought of that.

 

BH

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8 hours ago, Jaydug said:

, I don't like the idea of water standing to go stagnant.

 

After my system has been drained I have to prime it! 

 

That involves pumping water through until there is no air present, so any water that was in the pipework is flushed out. I don’t drink the water that has been in the aquaroll/pipework, we have a separate 5 litre container for that purpose. (Before anyone asks about cooking, boiling water kills pathogens) 

Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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we are similar to Mr. P. in that we give the system a good flush out at the start of the season and we drink bottled water as do the dogs, I'm not being fussy , but when you live in an area where the water is really good , areas like the south of England where they have the limescale is really yukky. 

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40 minutes ago, joanie said:

we are similar to Mr. P. in that we give the system a good flush out at the start of the season and we drink bottled water as do the dogs, I'm not being fussy , but when you live in an area where the water is really good , areas like the south of England where they have the limescale is really yukky. 

 

Most dogs are quite happy to drink water out of puddles!

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1 hour ago, daveat92 said:

 

Most dogs are quite happy to drink water out of puddles!

years ago when we started caravanning , the dogs often got the squits , so we changed to bottled water and all has been fine since, so we just get the cheap supermarket water, nothing fancy. We have had 5 dogs over the years and all of them small breeds, so perhaps they are a bit more sensitive , we also have to be careful with their food as small changes seem to upset them.  I always carry water with me when we go out and about as well, it's a small price to pay for not having to clean up after them , I don't mean pick up, I mean clean up...yuk!

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On 24/11/2020 at 15:40, Blackhart said:

That's a good point, I hadn't thought of that.

 

Yes! I became concerned about water becoming stagnant in the pipework when last year I unexpectedly had to return home for a few days, leaving the caravan on site. I’d emptied the Aquaroll and stored it in the shower room, but left the system full of water. After six days, I returned to the van, filled up with fresh water and plugged in the pump. On running the taps at the sink, I was immediately aware of the unpleasant smell. It was as though the water had come via the chemical disposal point. Two or three baby bottle sterilizing tablets dropped into the Aquaroll, then pumped through and allowed to stand in the pipework quickly got rid of the odour and no doubt killed off any remaining bacteria in the plastic pipes.

 

Although I don’t drink the tap water in the caravan,  or even fill the kettle from the taps, I do use the tap when teeth cleaning. For this reason, after returning home, I think it safer to remove as much water from the pipes as possible.

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I don't use it on the caravan, but I have a garden weed killer spray pump which I adapted to use to put chemicals into central heating systems, it is capable of pressurising to 1 bar. I use this to blow water out of the pipework to my front outside tap, this would be fine for pushing any water out of a system, or you could just blow down the shower hose, which is what I do.

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This issue of drain down has been discussed on the forum many times before.

Many advocated simply removing the shower head and blowing down the hose.

I had made one of those Floe alternatives a number of years ago shortly after the Floe kit was introduced, and found that it could remove well over a litre of water after having travelled home from site with the drain tap open.

After the comments about blowing down the shower hose, I tried that on one occasion after extracting over a litre of water with the home made Floe and found even more water was ejected.

Since then I no longer use the home made Floe and use the blowing down the shower tube method instead.

It takes a bit of “puff” but its more effective and a bit quicker too.

 

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On 25/11/2020 at 13:31, joanie said:

years ago when we started caravanning , the dogs often got the squits , so we changed to bottled water and all has been fine since, so we just get the cheap supermarket water, nothing fancy. We have had 5 dogs over the years and all of them small breeds, so perhaps they are a bit more sensitive , we also have to be careful with their food as small changes seem to upset them.  I always carry water with me when we go out and about as well, it's a small price to pay for not having to clean up after them , I don't mean pick up, I mean clean up...yuk!

Perfectly same and sensible.  I can assure you that rain puddles and sea water are full of microbes that will cause upset tummies.  Additionally, I will be drinking bottled water myself.  Filling a plastic bottle with water from an outside tap can be a breeding ground for some serious nasties ...... To prevent that happening means adding chemicals.   Before anyone asks ...... BSc in Medical Biochemistry.

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26 minutes ago, YorkshireLhasa said:

Additionally, I will be drinking bottled water myself.  Filling a plastic bottle with water from an outside tap can be a breeding ground for some serious nasties ...... To prevent that happening means adding chemicals.   Before anyone asks ...... BSc in Medical Biochemistry.

 

Been caravanning 25 years, always drink water from the Aquaroll, never had any kind of stomach upset

 

Just in case anyone is interested (Degree from the University of Life)

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Jaguar E-Pace 180D HSE R Dynamic - 2008 Swift Conqueror 540

 

"Unless otherwise stated, my posts will be my personal thoughts and have the same standing as any other member of Caravan Talk"

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1 minute ago, Grandpa Steve said:

 

Been caravanning 25 years, always drink water from the Aquaroll, never had any kind of stomach upset

 

Just in case anyone is interested (Degree from the University of Life)

 

I’m with on that GPS, Makes you wonder how mankind has survived, and thrived, for millions of years doesn’t it? 

 

The modern obsession with “germs” has, in my view, caused many of the younger generation to grow up without developing any sort of immunity to common ailments such as colds etc. Take a current TV advert “Kills 90% of household germs” First up that still leaves 1% and that 1% is still billions of the little critters. 

 

Secondly does that relate  to 99% of the total number of germs, or 99% of the various types of germs??  (I.e. kills just about every germ except the ones that cause X? ) 

 

I remember my dear mum, when I was probably around 5 or 6, saying to me after a day of playing in the garden “Dont worry, it’s good clean dirt!” 

 

I dontbdrink water from the The aquaroll But only because to my taste it carries a plasticky taint, so I fill a 5 litre bottle from the fresh tap. After 66 years I’m still here, fit and healthy. 

Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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15 minutes ago, YorkshireLhasa said:

Filling a plastic bottle with water from an outside tap can be a breeding ground for some serious nasties 

That's all caravanners completely :excl: then. 

 

All caravan site taps - clearly labelled 'drinking water' - are outside.

 

But I note you say "can be" which does mean not all are?

 

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2012 Bailey Pegasus 2 Rimini towed by 2019 Ford Galaxy Titanium X, 2.0 EcoBlue, 8 speed auto.

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I suppose it all depends on whether people are Risk aware, or risk averse. 

 

The former meaning you are aware of any risk but choose to continue anyway, and the latter means you are averse to that risk so will not continue. 

 

Me? I let common sense play a big role in my decision making process.

 

Anyone else remember common sense?? Because it seemed to die out a good few years ago once the “experts” kept telling us what we should and shouldn’t do, but like Covid really eh? 

Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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11 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

I suppose it all depends on whether people are Risk aware, or risk averse. 

 

The former meaning you are aware of any risk but choose to continue anyway, and the latter means you are averse to that risk so will not continue. 

 

Me? I let common sense play a big role in my decision making process.

 

Anyone else remember common sense?? Because it seemed to die out a good few years ago once the “experts” kept telling us what we should and shouldn’t do, but like Covid really eh? 

 

OBITUARY: THE SAD PASSING OF COMMON SENSE


Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.

He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as knowing when to come in out of the rain, why the early bird gets the worm, life isn't always fair, and maybe it was my fault. Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you earn) and reliable parenting (adults, not children, are in charge). His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned, but overbearing, regulations were set in place.

Reports of a six-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate, teenagers suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition. Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job they had themselves failed to do in disciplining their unruly children. It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer paracetamol, sun lotion or plaster to a pupil, but could not inform the parents when a pupil became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.

Common Sense lost the will to live as the Ten Commandments became contraband, churches became businesses and criminals received better treatment than their victims. Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home, but the burglar could sue you for assault because you protected yourself and your own.

Common Sense finally gave up the will to live after a woman failed to realise that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.

Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust, his wife, Discretion, his daughter, Responsibility and his son, Reason. He is survived by three stepbrothers; I Know My Rights, Someone Else is to Blame, and I'm A Victim. Not many attended his funeral because so few realised that he was gone.

If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and do nothing.

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4 minutes ago, Dave Capiro owner said:

 

Strange thing to drink water when caravanning. It should be outlawed, beer and wine only.

 

 

But if you boil it the tea tastes funny :) :) :)

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Jaguar E-Pace 180D HSE R Dynamic - 2008 Swift Conqueror 540

 

"Unless otherwise stated, my posts will be my personal thoughts and have the same standing as any other member of Caravan Talk"

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Thanks GPS, Sums it all up wonderfully ! 

 

Andy

Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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6 hours ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

I’m with on that GPS, Makes you wonder how mankind has survived, and thrived, for millions of years doesn’t it? 

 

The modern obsession with “germs” has, in my view, caused many of the younger generation to grow up without developing any sort of immunity to common ailments such as colds etc. Take a current TV advert “Kills 90% of household germs” First up that still leaves 1% and that 1% is still billions of the little critters. 

 

Secondly does that relate  to 99% of the total number of germs, or 99% of the various types of germs??  (I.e. kills just about every germ except the ones that cause X? ) 

 

I remember my dear mum, when I was probably around 5 or 6, saying to me after a day of playing in the garden “Dont worry, it’s good clean dirt!” 

 

I dontbdrink water from the The aquaroll But only because to my taste it carries a plasticky taint, so I fill a 5 litre bottle from the fresh tap. After 66 years I’m still here, fit and healthy. 

 

I understand that 99% has to be stated even though the items would kill 100% but I agree with your points.

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Sam :beardy:   RR Sport HSE Dynamic towing Swift Elegance Grande 845

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