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"Pulled" on the way to Norfolk.


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8 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

I refer you to the comments I made a short while ago AND to those made by Peter, which clearly confirm what I said. 

 

Take a look at any Motorhome that has been updated since original manufacturer. They will all have a new VIN plate AND the one produced by the MH manufacturer, why do you think that is?? To look pretty? 

 

 

Now you have confused me. The VIN plate is always produced by the vehicle manufacturer. The only reason for a new VIN to have to be displayed alongside the old one is if the upgrade (or downplating) was not carried out by the original manufacturer, but by someone else, in which case he then becomes the new manufacturer and one is entering a third build stage. In that case the name of the manufacturer would be different on the two plates.

 

Nobody has yet answered the question, if there are two statutory plates on the same vehicle displaying different MTPLMs. how does one know which one applies?

Edited by Lutz
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We are back from a lovely week in Norfolk, our favourite location and surprisingly the first visit with this van, after almost 18 months of ownership due to other commitments and of course a certain p

Yes, the car rear axle. As far as I can see the van has no separate axle weights. We had the kids, 10 & 3 in the rear seats and the boot loaded, I had quite a lot of tools in there. There is also

I have no intention of getting into an argument with you. I have merely explained my personal experience of having actually gone through the process of having a Motorhome up-plated in the past. Have y

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19 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

Thank you for confirming what I have said  Peter 

Andy's is correct my pickup has been been upgraded with a higher payload.

When the original TA was done the pickup only had something like 600 kg of payload. Naff all in pick up terms and for VAT rules they need to have a payload of a tonne. In 2014 ssangyong re worked the suspension to give it the magic tonne. On my door pillar I. Have two vin plates.

 

Out of interest as a caravan is classed as a trailer and not a car or MH does this mean different rules to the weight plate? 

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3 minutes ago, Jiffy176 said:

Out of interest as a caravan is classed as a trailer and not a car or MH does this mean different rules to the weight plate? 

 

The rules are the same for all vehicles subject to type approval, whether motorised or not. The only minor difference is that trailers have their noseweight limit denoted as axle 0.

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With caravans in the UK the MTPLM is ona plate usually near to the door .If you look in the front gas locker there is another plate this will give the MTPLM as shown on the door plate and also another weight which is the weight that the caravan can be upgraded to.If No further weight shown it cannot be upgraded .I have upgraded a caravan in the past and was told to cover the original door plate with the new sticker.Indeed I am awaiting delivery of a new Coachman which has extras fitted ie air con and they are going to uprate The MTPLM due to the extra  weight and put the new sticker on the door plate.Let me emphasize This is a caraven I do not profess to know what the situation is with Motorvehicles.hope this helps

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11 minutes ago, rambler2 said:

With caravans in the UK the MTPLM is ona plate usually near to the door .If you look in the front gas locker there is another plate this will give the MTPLM as shown on the door plate and also another weight which is the weight that the caravan can be upgraded to

Not all caravans have a plate / label in the gas locker. 
my 2018 lunar only has one plate, near door. This plate carries the weight info, and the type approval number. 

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11 hours ago, rambler2 said:

With caravans in the UK the MTPLM is ona plate usually near to the door .If you look in the front gas locker there is another plate this will give the MTPLM as shown on the door plate and also another weight which is the weight that the caravan can be upgraded to.

 

If there are two labels on the caravan then the one next to the door is an NCC one for customer information only and the one in the gas locker is the statutory one. Motorhomes and caravans manufactured by firms that are not NCC members don't have a label by the door.

 

11 hours ago, Lost in the wilderness said:

Not all caravans have a plate / label in the gas locker. 
my 2018 lunar only has one plate, near door. This plate carries the weight info, and the type approval number. 

 

That's right. Some manufacturers have gone over to combining the NCC label with the statutory plate.

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On 28/10/2020 at 17:19, PMW said:

 

it is indeed a Lunar, but does have a VIN plate mounted below the door. What I can't find is any kind of plate in the gas locker. The VIN plate reads 1600kg MTPLM, the commissioning certificate 1700, and the customer order sheet shows FOC weight upgrade option. 

 

I don't know what you mean by a commissioning certificate. The only certificate that is recognised by legislation is the type approval Certificate of Conformity and that must agree with what is displayed on the statutory plate.

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2 hours ago, Lutz said:

 

If there are two labels on the caravan then the one next to the door is an NCC one for customer information only and the one in the gas locker is the statutory one. Motorhomes and caravans manufactured by firms that are not NCC members don't have a label by the door.

 That's not quite the case, in that VanMaster does have a door label  - similar info to NCC but different style.

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It is all a bit weird. Recently purchased a new Swift. 1481kg  beneath the door. !500kg in the gas locker with conformity paperwork showing 1500Kg.

 

On querying this via the dealer Swift said "The weight plate in the gas locker is the plate that gives you the details of what the chassis can take so to speak. (essentially the upgrade). We purposely place a lower MTPLM as standard as it gives the customers flexibility to have a smaller car, or of course upgrade if the car they have will tow more."

 

So, £60 later I now have a 1500kg sticker, with an extra 2 PSI on the tyres (64)  incidentally, stuck over the original sticker beneath the door. All a bit daft me thinks but there you go.

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This all goes to show just how ludicrous the caravan industry is when dealing with MTPLM doesn’t it? 

With a Motorhome it’s totally unambiguous, with a caravan it’s just lit luck! 

 

Will it ever change?

What do you think? 

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5 minutes ago, Fenester said:

It is all a bit weird. Recently purchased a new Swift. 1481kg  beneath the door. !500kg in the gas locker with conformity paperwork showing 1500Kg.

 

On querying this via the dealer Swift said "The weight plate in the gas locker is the plate that gives you the details of what the chassis can take so to speak. (essentially the upgrade). We purposely place a lower MTPLM as standard as it gives the customers flexibility to have a smaller car, or of course upgrade if the car they have will tow more."

 

So, £60 later I now have a 1500kg sticker, with an extra 2 PSI on the tyres (64)  incidentally, stuck over the original sticker beneath the door. All a bit daft me thinks but there you go.

 

I've recently increased ours from 1624 to 1800kgs (removed the original sticker and replaced it with the new, still got the old one here!).  This discussion has gone round & round so many times it must be quite dizzy by now.  Several members have put forward some excellent points time & time again, Mr Plod spent a lot of time trying to get clarification from Bailey (and elsewhere).  Lutz has industry experience (albeit outside the UK) and the information that Mr Plod eventually reached as a conclusion doesn't align with what Lutz knows as legislative facts from the industry.

 

Personally I think that Lutz is correct and that the "plate by the door" is a bit of a blurring of the edges to allow B-category license holders and 85% devotees to find a caravan of choice, however, trying to argue all of this with the powers-that-be at the side of the road was something that I could do without so for me the £60 upgrade was a small price to avoid any aggro.

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2018 Volvo V90 and 2018 Swift Sprite Quattro EB

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7 minutes ago, GaryB1969 said:

 

I've recently increased ours from 1624 to 1800kgs (removed the original sticker and replaced it with the new, still got the old one here!).  This discussion has gone round & round so many times it must be quite dizzy by now.  Several members have put forward some excellent points time & time again, Mr Plod spent a lot of time trying to get clarification from Bailey (and elsewhere).  Lutz has industry experience (albeit outside the UK) and the information that Mr Plod eventually reached as a conclusion doesn't align with what Lutz knows as legislative facts from the industry.

 

Personally I think that Lutz is correct and that the "plate by the door" is a bit of a blurring of the edges to allow B-category license holders and 85% devotees to find a caravan of choice, however, trying to argue all of this with the powers-that-be at the side of the road was something that I could do without so for me the £60 upgrade was a small price to avoid any aggro.

Good summing up of the discussion.

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2 hours ago, Lutz said:

I don't know what you mean by a commissioning certificate. The only certificate that is recognised by legislation is the type approval Certificate of Conformity and that must agree with what is displayed on the statutory plate.

 

The commissioning certificate is issued by the NCC and completed by Lunar when the caravan leaves the factory. It carries the statement of approval from the NCC, the list of British Standards adhered to during manufacture, the VIN number, MTPLM and actual weight of this van when it left the factory. Perhaps other manufacturers were not as fastidious as Lunar when commissioning their product?

 

The information from the DVSA at the roadside was that as long as this certificate remains with the van then it's MTPLM is the 1700kg shown on it, rather than the 1600kg shown on the VIN plate. A second plate, usually adhesive should have been added to the van and having looked again this morning i cannot find one but it's absence does not affect the acceptable weight. I wonder if it was on the gas locker door which I know, or am fairly certain has been replaced, or perhaps removed by a previous owner with a 1600kg towing limit. 

 

In order to have a definitive answer I have emailed the DVSA to confirm, as they are the absolute authority on the subject. It s not particularly important as we don't intend to load the van over 1600k anyway, in fact I like to use 1500 as a target due to the 75kg noseweight limit hence achieving the advisory 5% ratio. We were carrying a full weeks supply of food, drinks, beer etc on this trip, in future we will probably reduce this and replace some of the tools I was carrying in the boot with electric cable, spare wheel etc, to bring the weight of the van back towards the 1500 target. 

Mercedes E350 CDi AMG Cabriolet, Lunar Freelander 640EW Twin Axle @1700kg

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Just had a rummage through the paperwork that came with ours, this is the only Approval Certificate I have:

 

cofc2.jpg.f54c82d39d6205fb6f1a86c8cb6f55b3.jpgcofc1.jpg.b5a2c3e64e2289097adeeb687f3cad71.jpg

2018 Volvo V90 and 2018 Swift Sprite Quattro EB

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that's the one. Ryedale - our local supplier. 

Edited by PMW

Mercedes E350 CDi AMG Cabriolet, Lunar Freelander 640EW Twin Axle @1700kg

********* Naughty Step Aficionado And Grand Collector Of Naughty Points *********

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1 hour ago, PMW said:

 

The commissioning certificate is issued by the NCC and completed by Lunar when the caravan leaves the factory. It carries the statement of approval from the NCC, the list of British Standards adhered to during manufacture, the VIN number, MTPLM and actual weight of this van when it left the factory. Perhaps other manufacturers were not as fastidious as Lunar when commissioning their product?

 

The information from the DVSA at the roadside was that as long as this certificate remains with the van then it's MTPLM is the 1700kg shown on it, rather than the 1600kg shown on the VIN plate. A second plate, usually adhesive should have been added to the van and having looked again this morning i cannot find one but it's absence does not affect the acceptable weight. I wonder if it was on the gas locker door which I know, or am fairly certain has been replaced, or perhaps removed by a previous owner with a 1600kg towing limit. 

 

In order to have a definitive answer I have emailed the DVSA to confirm, as they are the absolute authority on the subject. It s not particularly important as we don't intend to load the van over 1600k anyway, in fact I like to use 1500 as a target due to the 75kg noseweight limit hence achieving the advisory 5% ratio. We were carrying a full weeks supply of food, drinks, beer etc on this trip, in future we will probably reduce this and replace some of the tools I was carrying in the boot with electric cable, spare wheel etc, to bring the weight of the van back towards the 1500 target. 

 

The certificate that you have attached to your reply is an NCC certificate for customer information only. It is not the type approval Certificate of Conformity. It does not, for instance, give the following details which are required for a type approval certificate:

  1. The maximum permissible axle load (item 16.1 of a CoC) is missing
  2. The noseweight limit (item 19 of a CoC)  is missing
  3. Details of the overall height (item 7 of a CoC) are missing
  4. The approved tyre size (item 35 of a CoC) is missing
  5. The maximum permissible towing speed (item 29 of a CoC) is missing
  6. The track width of the axle (item 30 of a CoC) is missing

All the weight information (items 1 and 2) must be repeated on the statutory weight plate, in addition to the MTPLM.

On the other hand, it certifies compliance with industry standards, EN 1645-1, EN 1645-2, EN 1648-1, EN 1949, and EN 721, none of which are required for the purpose of fulfilling vehicle Construction and Use Regulations.

 

The type approval Certificate of Conformity is not normally handed out to the customer in the UK, but it is required if the vehicle is ever to be registered abroad.

 

Edited by Lutz
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On 27/10/2020 at 15:46, Stevan said:

When I was pulled I was told that they simply pulled the next caravan after the Bay was cleared.

However, I suspect that any outfit that looked suspect would be pulled as a matter of routine.

That was exactly my thought.

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1 hour ago, PMW said:

 

 

The information from the DVSA at the roadside was that as long as this certificate remains with the van then it's MTPLM is the 1700kg shown on it, rather than the 1600kg shown on the VIN plate. A second plate, usually adhesive should have been added to the van and having looked again this morning i cannot find one but it's absence does not affect the acceptable weight. I wonder if it was on the gas locker door which I know, or am fairly certain has been replaced, or perhaps removed by a previous owner with a 1600kg towing limit. 

 

 

 

I wonder what figure they would choose to use in the event of that caravan and rig being driven by a Category B only licence holder and the train wright using the higher MTPLM puts it over 3500kg and the lower MTPLM puts it under 3500kg??  

 

That could lead to a very interesting discussion at the roadside couldn’t it??

 

That is EXACTLY the situation I am in with my van (not an issue because I have B+E along with HGV class 1) 

Edited by Mr Plodd
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7 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

I wonder what figure they would choose to use in the event of that caravan and rig being driven by a Category B only licence holder and the train wright using the higher MTPLM puts it over 3500kg and the lower MTPLM puts it under 3500kg??  

 

That could lead to a very interesting discussion at the roadside couldn’t it??

 

That is EXACTLY the situation I am in with my van (not an issue because I have B+E along with HGV class 1) 

 

I imagine it'd make a very interesting case if it went to court as well seeing as the "victim" essentially has two sets of goal posts to aim for!

2018 Volvo V90 and 2018 Swift Sprite Quattro EB

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11 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

I wonder what figure they would choose to use in the event of that caravan and rig being driven by a Category B only licence holder and the train wright using the higher MTPLM puts it over 3500kg and the lower MTPLM puts it under 3500kg??  

 

That could lead to a very interesting discussion at the roadside couldn’t it??

 

That is EXACTLY the situation I am in with my van (not an issue because I have B+E along with HGV class 1) 

 

My understanding is that the powers-that-be in the UK will normally accept the MTPLM displayed on the label by the door, but this is purely discretionary as this label does not fulfil the requirements that apply to a statutory plate. There is therefore an element of risk involved depending on how zealous the officer is. The risk is certainly greater when touring abroad as they don't have any reason to accept an NCC label.

Edited by Lutz
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My car, a SSanyong Turismo, has two different VIN plates showing  different "e" numbers and train weights.  However, one is marked "STAGE 2", indicating that it supersedes the other one.  This is handy as the Stage 2 plate increases the gross train weight from 4,850 to 5,700 kg.

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1 hour ago, DACS said:

My car, a SSanyong Turismo, has two different VIN plates showing  different "e" numbers and train weights.  However, one is marked "STAGE 2", indicating that it supersedes the other one.  This is handy as the Stage 2 plate increases the gross train weight from 4,850 to 5,700 kg.

 

At least that is consistent.

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And is exactly what I was saying about motorhomes often having two VIN plates, one of them being “Stage two” :blink:

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40 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

And is exactly what I was saying about motorhomes often having two VIN plates, one of them being “Stage two” :blink:

 

OK, that clears things up. The Stage 1 VIN plate would refer to the chassis manufacturer (such as Fiat, for example) and the Stage 2 VIN plate applied by the manufacturer of the completed motorhome (Swift, or whoever). I was under the impression from your previous replies that Swift had upgraded the MTPLM and added a third VIN plate, hence my question how one would tell whether the second or the third plate would be valid, as both would apply to Stage 2.

 

Edited by Lutz
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22 hours ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

 

 

 

With a MH there is the original manufactures (I.e. Fiat) plate. The MH manufacturer (Autotrail etc) affixes a “Second Stage” VIN plate because very often the MH manufacturer upgrades the brakes, tyres and suspension so they can certify a higher MTPLM than the base vehicle manufacturer does. 

 

 

Did I not say exactly that many lists back? 

28 minutes ago, Lutz said:

 

OK, that clears things up. The Stage 1 VIN plate would refer to the chassis manufacturer (such as Fiat, for example) and the Stage 2 VIN plate applied by the manufacturer of the completed motorhome (Swift, or whoever). I was under the impression from your previous replies that Swift had upgraded the MTPLM and added a third VIN plate, hence my question how one would tell whether the second or the third plate would be valid, as both would apply to Stage 2.

 

 

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