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If the VIN plates reads 1600kg then that’s the figure I would have used when weighing it as that’s exactly what it’s there for. Any weight “upgrade” should include a new VIN plate to show the increase. A bit of paper won’t cut it! 

 

I had had a couple of motorhomes upgraded weight wise in the past. On each occasion I was supplied with a new second stage VIN plate/sticker, but the original VIN plate still had to be left visible. 

 

Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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We are back from a lovely week in Norfolk, our favourite location and surprisingly the first visit with this van, after almost 18 months of ownership due to other commitments and of course a certain p

Yes, the car rear axle. As far as I can see the van has no separate axle weights. We had the kids, 10 & 3 in the rear seats and the boot loaded, I had quite a lot of tools in there. There is also

I have no intention of getting into an argument with you. I have merely explained my personal experience of having actually gone through the process of having a Motorhome up-plated in the past. Have y

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The MIRO of older caravans was imprecise, especially Lunars apparently, so the pay load was often grossly over stated resulting in frequently exceeded MTPLM by many users being blissfully unaware,  

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MIRO is utterly irrelevant, the only important (and legally enforceable)  one is the MPTLM

 

(and before anyone leaps in trying to be clever yes there is a max axle weight as well :rolleyes:

Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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Just now, Mr Plodd said:

MIRO is utterly irrelevant, the only important (and legally enforceable)  one is the MPTLM

 

(and before anyone leaps in trying to be clever yes there is a max axle weight as well :rolleyes:

Agreed you are correct in term of enforcement but if MIRO is inaccurate it overstates payload and can then as a consequence cause people to overload unless they take the van to a weigh bridge. Many people just weigh their stuff and add it to the MIRO to calculate how close they are to MTPLM whilst potentially flawed this approach is common,

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54 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

that’s the figure I would have used when weighing it

 

The examiner confirmed the commissioning certificate is sufficient. There should be an additional plate or sticker added when the upgrade was applied which we have never found, but it is not imperative. 

 

MIRO may not be a legal measure but it is important in terms of establishing user payload. 

 

 

20 minutes ago, Fenester said:

The MIRO of older caravans was imprecise, especially Lunars apparently,

 

Do you have evidence of that, or quoting an old wives tale. NCC Approval requires manufacturers to provide an accurate MIRO. Although I have not weighed this van my two previous Lunars have been very close to the MIRO when checked. 

 

Edited by PMW

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12 minutes ago, PMW said:

 

The examiner confirmed the commissioning certificate is sufficient. There should be an additional plate or sticker added when the upgrade was applied which we have never found, but it is not imperative. 

 

MIRO may not be a legal measure but it is important in terms of establishing user payload. 

 

 

 

Do you have evidence of that, or quoting an old wives tale. NCC Approval requires manufacturers to provide an accurate MIRO. Although I have not weighed this van my two previous Lunars have been very close to the MIRO when checked. 

 

Depends definition of on older. c 1990- 2008 I was told this on good authority, but confidentially,  that the weights were all over the place.

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1 hour ago, PMW said:

The examiner confirmed the commissioning certificate is sufficient. There should be an additional plate or sticker added when the upgrade was applied which we have never found, but it is not imperative.

 

What would the need to display the date achieve?

 

1 hour ago, PMW said:

NCC Approval requires manufacturers to provide an accurate MIRO. Although I have not weighed this van my two previous Lunars have been very close to the MIRO when checked.

 

One can never rely on the accuracy of a MIRO supplied by the manufacturer as MIRO, by definition, is only the weight of the caravan that was submitted for type approval, not that of the caravan in question. It wouldn't make much sense anyway as more often than not the ex-works weight is seldom the same as the actual unladen weight when in the hands of the end user.

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1 hour ago, Lutz said:

What would the need to display the date achieve?

 

I don't understand, why date? the additional plate would update the MTPLM 

Mercedes E350 CDi AMG Cabriolet, Lunar Freelander 640EW Twin Axle @1700kg

********* Naughty Step Aficionado And Grand Collector Of Naughty Points *********

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29 minutes ago, PMW said:

 

I don't understand, why date? the additional plate would update the MTPLM 

 

OK, I misunderstood your statement when you said, "there should be an additional plate or sticker added when the upgrade was applied". But there is a legal requirement that the valid MTPLM is is displayed on the statutory plate, whether it has previously been upgraded or not.

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Just now, Lutz said:

 

OK, I misunderstood your statement when you said, "there should be an additional plate or sticker added when the upgrade was applied". But there is a legal requirement that the MTPLM is is displayed on the statutory plate, whether it has been upgraded or not.

Isn't the requirement for a statutory plate a fairly recent one?  (2012 rings a bell) 

Ern

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2 minutes ago, Ern said:

Isn't the requirement for a statutory plate a fairly recent one?  (2012 rings a bell) 

 

that could be an explanation, as the DVSA examiner was quite clear that the VIN plate below the door was superseded by the commissioning certificate, and by an updated plate or sticker. Ours is a 2006 van. 

Mercedes E350 CDi AMG Cabriolet, Lunar Freelander 640EW Twin Axle @1700kg

********* Naughty Step Aficionado And Grand Collector Of Naughty Points *********

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Just now, Ern said:

Isn't the requirement for a statutory plate a fairly recent one?  (2012 rings a bell) 

 

No, a statutory plate displaying the MAW was already required under the old legislation. With the introduction of whole vehicle type approval for caravans in 2014, further weight details were added to the requirement - the noseweight limit and the axle load limits. Maximum Allowable Weight was then renamed Maximum Technically Permissible Laden Mass, MTPLM.

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IMO there is a very simple solution to all this confusion, and that is to remove the original plate if the MTPLM has been downplated by the manufacturer to appeal to potential purchasers who are weight-limited by licence or towing vehicle, Similarly, if the original weight limit is reinstated, all other plates should be removed. One plate - one weight limit! How hard is that?

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Fourwinds Hurricane 31D Motorhome. Also MGTF135 1. 8i Roadster (fun) & Volvo V70 3.2Ltr LPG (everyday car)
Unless otherwise stated, my posts will be my personal thoughts and have the same standing as any other member of Caravan Talk.

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7 minutes ago, Gordon said:

IMO there is a very simple solution to all this confusion, and that is to remove the original plate if the MTPLM has been downplated by the manufacturer to appeal to potential purchasers who are weight-limited by licence or towing vehicle, Similarly, if the original weight limit is reinstated, all other plates should be removed. One plate - one weight limit! How hard is that?

 

Well said. What is the point of leaving an old plate on the vehicle if a new plate reflecting up- or downplating is displayed? It only serves to confuse.

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Hey I don’t make the rules! I was just stating what is required when up/downplating a Motorhome 

Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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23 hours ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

 

I had had a couple of motorhomes upgraded weight wise in the past. On each occasion I was supplied with a new second stage VIN plate/sticker, but the original VIN plate still had to be left visible. 

 

Our upgrade plate on our 640 was put exactly over the original one!

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2019 Bailey Platinum (640) Phoenix from Chipping Sodbury caravans, towed by our  2017 my Discovery Sport!

 

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48 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

Hey I don’t make the rules! I was just stating what is required when up/downplating a Motorhome 

 

What rule are you referring to? Where can I find it under legislation.gov.uk?

If there are two plates displaying different MTPLMs, how does one know which one applies? They don't display a date of issue.

Edited by Lutz
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I have no idea, it’s just the instructions I received along with the new VIn plate. The people doing the upgrade are very well known (in the MH fraternity) and considered the experts in the field, they go under the name of SV Tech and have been doing that task for many years, so I expect they know their business. In every other MH I have seen that has been up-plated the original was clearly visible with the new one alongside it. The “New” plate is usually self adhesive and for all intents and purposes identical to the original and carries ALL of the information that is on the original with the exception of the different MTPLM. 

Maybe the rules are different for trailers?

 

With a MH there is the original manufactures (I.e. Fiat) plate. The MH manufacturer (Autotrail etc) affixes a “Second Stage” VIN plate because very often the MH manufacturer upgrades the brakes, tyres and suspension so they can certify a higher MTPLM than the base vehicle manufacturer does. 

 

 It is the Second Stage plate that the “New” upgraded VIN one must be alongside. Caravans don’t have “Second Stage” VIN plates!

Edited by Mr Plodd

Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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VIN plates are VIN plates. Legislation doesn't differentiate between types of vehicle and it only calls for one statutory plate per stage build. I cannot find any reference to the validity of a second plate anywhere so how does one know which one applies if two are displayed showing different values?

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I have no intention of getting into an argument with you. I have merely explained my personal experience of having actually gone through the process of having a Motorhome up-plated in the past. Have you had a MH up-plated?

 

Caravans don’t have “Second Stage” VIN  plates, motorhomes do. That’s not my opinion, it’s a fact.

Caravans don’t have Second Stage manufacturers VIN plates, because the entire thing is made by a single manufacturer, that’s another fact. 

 

You are of course entitled to hold any view you wish, I have merely detailed my personal experience. 

 

 

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Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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I have three vin plates on my motorhome. I had the weight upgraded when I bought it and the instructions that came with it says do not remove any of the plates that are there.

There was no room under the bonnet for it lol, so it said to put the new plate on the door pillar.

 

 

Peter.

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I'm not arguing with you, nor am I holding a particular view. I just want to know on what basis you were told to display the old plate alongside the new one. Without a good and substantiated reason I would not have gone along with such a request as it only serves to confuse and doesn't make sense.

What has a second stage got to with the issue at stake? The same applies regardless how many build stages the motorhome, trailer (hence also caravan), car, truck, bus or whatever had gone through. Only the final stage has any relevance to the end user.

Edited by Lutz
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Thank you for confirming what I have said  Peter 

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Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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7 minutes ago, wasp said:

I have three vin plates on my motorhome. I had the weight upgraded when I bought it and the instructions that came with it says do not remove any of the plates that are there.

There was no room under the bonnet for it lol, so it said to put the new plate on the door pillar.

 

 

Peter.

 

And which one does one read now? I suspect that what the instructions really meant was not to remove any of the earlier build stage plates.

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Just now, Lutz said:

I'm not arguing with you, nor am I holding a particular view. I just want to know on what basis you were told to display the old plate alongside the new one. Without a good and substantiated reason I would not have gone along with such a request as it only confuses and doesn't make sense.

What has a second stage got to with the issue at stake? The same applies regardless how many build stages the motorhome, trailer (hence also caravan), car, truck, motorcycle or whatever had gone through. Only the final stage has any relevance to the end user.

 

I refer you to the comments I made a short while ago AND to those made by Peter, which clearly confirm what I said. 

 

Take a look at any Motorhome that has been updated since original manufacturer. They will all have a new VIN plate AND the one produced by the MH manufacturer, why do you think that is?? To look pretty? 

 

 

Just now, Lutz said:

 

And which one does one read now? I suspect that what the instructions really meant was not to remove any of the earlier build stage plates.

 

Hole dig! 

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Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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