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On 21/10/2020 at 10:13, logiclee said:

 

Some modern cars eat through the rear brake pads but that's mainly due to stability and traction systems.

Surely that must be down to the driver pushing on enough to bring those systems into play.   Basically they are driving at speeds beyond their ability and relying on the car to make up for their own deficiencies.

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I am very well aware of weight transference under heavy braking (and could bore you with the maths);. I was involved in the forensic investigation, and reconstruction of serious and fatal road traffic

No need at all for anything other than standard tyres on the rear when towing.    Think about it, most cars have a tow hitch limit if 75-100kg, the weight of a single (albeit chunky) passeng

Personally I drive at speeds where under/oversteer is highly unlikely to happen !   If you get into a situation where either is likely to happen then you have failed spectacularly to assess

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Cruise control too, not sure how they're driving but cruise on the way uses rear brakes if active. 

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2 hours ago, Jezzerb said:

Cruise control too, not sure how they're driving but cruise on the way uses rear brakes if active. 

 

Never heard of that before !

And how pray does the cruise control system operate just the rear brakes when vehicles have braking circuits that are split diagonally ?? 

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26 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

Never heard of that before !

And how pray does the cruise control system operate just the rear brakes when vehicles have braking circuits that are split diagonally ?? 

 

It's not that simple on modern vehicles with ESP/DSC.  Individual wheels can be braked if required.

 

image.png.a7e2f1a6241df83b20c0fda3933c4d5b.png

 

I'm at a loss why Cruise Control would want to brake the rears only though.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, logiclee said:

 

I'm at a loss why Cruise Control would want to brake the rears only though.

 

In the absence of any proof I also simply don’t believe that any CC does that.

 

Edited by Mr Plodd
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No idea if it is the rear that's braked under cruise control, but in a fully independent system I can see a logic in braking the rears if all the system is doing is GENTLE braking if holding speed down a slight incline for example as such rear braking would maintain greater stability with no power to the wheels and the minimal braking effects would not pose any danger for lock-up, etc. Might also mean less perceived nose dip on softer suspensions to upset delicate occupants?

IF that is the case the intelligent system would apply different brakes at different forces dependent on the situation - so if the car in front brakes sharply you get the more normal balanced brake operation.

Just me speculating, so could all be bull****.

Edited by Ukzero
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An interesting, and entirely possible, explanation!

 

But until I see some documentary proof I remain very sceptical. (But I am happy to have my knowledge base updated, never too old to learn eh ? :)

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57 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

In the absence of any proof I also simply don’t believe that any CC does that.

 

Read up on Adaptive Cruise Control.

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Common sense isn't a gift, it's a punishment because you have to deal with everyone who doesn't have it.  :rolleyes:

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No2 son has popped in for a brew and says that CC is rapidly evolving and as well as adaptive cruise control there is also now intelligent adaptive cruise control that doesn't only use the  vehicle sensors, radar, lidar, sonar, cameras,  etc. but also info from a sat nav system so it can take into account gradients bends and so on before it reaches them.

 

He says from memory the Volvo XC40 among other manufacturers can be fitted with adaptive CC

 

 

Edited by Silversurf
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3 minutes ago, Silversurf said:

No2 son has popped in for a brew and says that CC is rapidly evolving and as well as adaptive cruise control there is also now intelligent adaptive cruise control that doesn't only use the  vehicle sensors, radar, lidar, sonar, cameras,  etc. but also info from a sat nav system so it can take into account gradients bends and so on before it reaches them.

 

He says from memory the Volvo XC40 among other manufacturers can be fitted with it.

 

 

Porsche version is InnoDrive . . .

"For example, InnoDrive can look up to 1.8 miles ahead on your programmed navigation route and predict when it should accelerate, cruise, coast, and decelerate in order to optimize smoothness and efficiency. The technology takes into account speed limits, elevation changes, curves and corners, and more to determine the optimum powertrain calibration."

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 I sometimes wonder how we ever managed to get to a destination with crossply tyres, drum brakes all round, solid steering columns, navigating with a map, ( as an aside my grandson rang me from Blackpool asking how to get home. His friend's sat nav had broken) only 4 sometimes 3 forward gears (no synchromesh on 1st) and single speed wipers. The list could go on, ahh the good old days.  ;)

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7 minutes ago, Flat_at said:

 I sometimes wonder how we ever managed to get to a destination with crossply tyres, drum brakes all round, solid steering columns, navigating with a map, ( as an aside my grandson rang me from Blackpool asking how to get home. His friend's sat nav had broken) only 4 sometimes 3 forward gears (no synchromesh on 1st) and single speed wipers. The list could go on, ahh the good old days.  ;)

 

You had a certain person in the passenger seat with a very pointy right elbow and occasionally high pitched voice who made sure you followed instructions and made you stop and ask for directions....................even though you didn't want to. 🙄😲🤣😉

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Common sense isn't a gift, it's a punishment because you have to deal with everyone who doesn't have it.  :rolleyes:

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It's the reason mini teccies give for the rapid wear rate of rear pads in the f56mini. Not sureabout its accuracy but seems a common occurrence.

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18 minutes ago, Jezzerb said:

It's the reason mini teccies give for the rapid wear rate of rear pads in the f56mini. Not sureabout its accuracy but seems a common occurrence.

 

I've had adaptive cruise on BMW and VAG but they were definitely braking normally using all four wheels.

 

RWD BMW's and Jag's are notorious for rear brake pad usage but that's down to the DCS controlling the rear end. That wouldn't be the case on the Mini though.

Edited by logiclee

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2 hours ago, Flat_at said:

and single speed wipers.   ;)

No wipers at all going uphill with the good old vacuum driven ones.  You had to lift your foot off the accelerator pedal to give the wipers a quick go if it got that you couldn't  see!  Oh the joy's. 

And you didn't  mention virtually ineffective heaters or even no heater at all as in my first couple of cars.

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I passed my driving test back in 1956 at the age of 18.

 

Apart from the introduction of “Disc” brakes and perhaps “Power Steering” many years ago, I for one, don’t want or need any other technical mechanical/electronic gadgets to help me drive safely.

 

If ever I found myself forced to brake very hard in an emergency, I would want (and expect) the rear wheels to lock up and the rear end of the car to start sliding sideways, that way, I have a chance of avoiding the obstruction immediately in front of me.

 

As soon as I feel that I have skidded far enough off my planned line of travel to avoid the obstacle, I can release the footbrake which should then immediately restore steering control.

 

If I want the engine to switch off in a traffic jam, I can do it.  If I want the doors locked shut whilst driving I can do it before I set off!  I don’t need all these things done for me!

 

I currently drive a Hyundai ix20 and enjoy its performance but some of its electronics drive me (excuse the pun) to distraction!          

 

Vin Blanc 

Edited by Vin Blanc
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26 minutes ago, Vin Blanc said:

 

I passed my driving test back in 1956 at the age of 18.

 

Apart from the introduction of “Disc” brakes and perhaps “Power Steering” many years ago, I for one, don’t want or need any other technical mechanical/electronic gadgets to help me drive safely.

 

If ever I found myself forced to brake very hard in an emergency, I would want (and expect) the rear wheels to lock up and the rear end of the car to start sliding sideways, that way, I have a chance of avoiding the obstruction immediately in front of me.

 

As soon as I feel that I have skidded far enough off my planned line of travel to avoid the obstacle, I can release the footbrake which should then immediately restore steering control.

 

If I want the engine to switch off in a traffic jam, I can do it.  If I want the doors locked shut whilst driving I can do it before I set off!  I don’t need all these things done for me!

 

I currently drive a Hyundai ix20 and enjoy its performance but some of its electronics drive me (excuse the pun) to distraction!          

 

Vin Blanc 

Many of us neither want nor need some or all of the recent safety gizmos. However, most drivers simply do not have the skill to control the rear end stepping out of line and for them a measure of understeer combined with ABS helps to ensure that they hit the obstruction ahead more slowly, employing the crumple zones to the full, rather than at full speed sideways.

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I appreciate some of the modern gizmos, not needing a choke, having an electric windscreen wash instead of a manual plunger, sat nav is brilliant for marriage harmony but I still look up the route on maps, electric windows, the greater comfort and reliability that modern cars provide and decent fuel economy.

 

Mrs P spun and bumped her then newish car on some spilt diesel on a motorway slip road bend. The police said it was a common problem there due to the nearby business park with wagons filling up with diesel and spilling a bit as they go round the bend. After that I would not go much above 30 mph there and do the acceleration up to 70 on the straight bit after the bend.

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3 hours ago, Vin Blanc said:

.If ever I found myself forced to brake very hard in an emergency, I would want (and expect) the rear wheels to lock up and the rear end of the car to start sliding sideways, that way, I have a chance of avoiding the obstruction immediately in front of me.

 

As soon as I feel that I have skidded far enough off my planned line of travel to avoid the obstacle, I can release the footbrake which should then immediately restore steering control.

        

 

Vin Blanc 

 

An interesting theory, but sadly totally wrong!

 

With the rear wheels locked under severe braking (which is virtually impossible these days) The car will continue on exactly the same trajectory it was on just before the wheels locked.  it may well be that the front is pointing in a slightly different direction. The only change of direction will occur once the rear wheels re-establish grip with the road surface at which point the car will continue forwards in the direction the front wheels are pointing.

 

If the front wheels are  pointing towards the hedge at the point the rear wheels start rotating again that my friend is where you are going! (That is why you should always steer into a skid! ) 

Edited by Mr Plodd
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5 hours ago, Jezzerb said:

It's the reason mini teccies give for the rapid wear rate of rear pads in the f56mini. Not sureabout its accuracy but seems a common occurrence.

 

Something is seriously wrong with the basic geometry etc of the base vehicle if it continually needs brake inputs to maintain its stability. A car with decent inherent handling wouldn’t need to keep applying the rear brakes in that manner would it?  

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48 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

Something is seriously wrong with the basic geometry etc of the base vehicle if it continually needs brake inputs to maintain its stability. A car with decent inherent handling wouldn’t need to keep applying the rear brakes in that manner would it?  

Most cars these days have adequate up to exceptional stability depending if it's a shopping trolley or an all singing dancing top of the range beast.

 

The problem is the idiot in the drivers seat, with no inkling of what stability is, or how to read the road and drive accordingly, an extremely large and slow reacting right foot, one arm out of the window holding the roof on, two fingers of his other hand steering, safe in his belief that because that the adverts said it's one of the safest cars in the world due to all these letters behind its name, ABS, ESP, DSC and bar, that nothing can go wrong.

 

That's until, in the last few milliseconds of his life his brain is saying ' why is that tree coming at us at 90mp....................click.

 

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Common sense isn't a gift, it's a punishment because you have to deal with everyone who doesn't have it.  :rolleyes:

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1 hour ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

Something is seriously wrong with the basic geometry etc of the base vehicle if it continually needs brake inputs to maintain its stability. A car with decent inherent handling wouldn’t need to keep applying the rear brakes in that manner would it?  

 

It's not just for stability it's for handling and torque vectoring.

 

It's common now to use the brakes to distribute torque or aid turn in feel or reduce torque steer.

 

It's why you can now have a Mini or Fiesta with FWD and more power than an original AWD Escort Cosworth or Subaru Impreza.

 

 

Edited by logiclee
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The mini is FWD so how exactly is applying the rear brakes going to prevent torque steer through the front (driven) wheels, or improve the turn in?

 

 

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I came across a Mercedes with a run flat tyre today. I heard a banging noise and then the car slowly came round a corner with a flat front tyre and a flap on it was banging against the wheel arch cover. Possibly it did not have a spare wheel, sealant would  not work and the driver might have been trying to get home or to Kwik Fit which was another mile away. Whatever, the wheel would be ruined so a new tyre would not be enough.

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It isn't from what I read cruise(active) used rear brakes and stability control too.  Electronic diffs and torque factoring use fronts.

Edited by Jezzerb
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