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Black Horse have released us from contract for faulty van


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Bought our brand new Lunar Venus 4 years ago on BH finance.  Started having problems from year 2, damp and minor cracks in rear and front panel.  This year we found a large crack in rear of roof that was letting a large amount of water ingress in. Independent examiner came out and concluded all were manufacturing faults but the rear of the van would need a brand new panel.  BH agreed to pay for this, but with Lunar going bust and COVID it was difficult to obtain quotes.  Only quote we had was 8k +.  Sent this to BH who rejected it and said the only option was to release us from our contract as the repair wasn't financially viable against the market retail value of the van.   They have offered us £3600 which consists of our £2k deposit and 10% of our monthly payments +interest , small amount of compo  etc... 

 

I feel that this is not fair as over the 4 years we have paid £10k already.  They stated because we have had lots of use out of the van then they are not willing to give us any more.   They have said I can refer to ombudsman if so wish.

 

Can anyone advise if they feel this is a fair deal or not?  I appreciate we wouldn't get a full refund but not even half the amount seems unfair to me?

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I can't believe the replies this guy is getting to a perfectly good question basically what this forum should be about. I had to check to see if he had accidentally posted in the dealers section becau

My head hurts reading this!

Your comment very clearly lays blame on the OP, without even knowing if he did research his purchase. It was unkind and unwarranted. 

As the repair is not financially viable they are saying , basically, you have a scrap van and have probably based their offer on the scrap value.

You have had 4 years use of the van, despite any problems, so what you have paid and what it is worth now are miles apart, not in your favour sadly.

Edited by Brecon
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The real issue is how much you actually paid for the four years use of the van.

How would this compare with the amount you would be out of pocket if you had simply chosen to terminate the contract early yourself to trade it in on a new van?

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I was under the impression that having BH finance protected you for the full cost ?

May have to re-evaluate how we finance our new Van now.   

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56 minutes ago, karlak said:

I was under the impression that having BH finance protected you for the full cost ?

May have to re-evaluate how we finance our new Van now.   

to be fair if I had no finance I would have been totally bugg*erd as dealership didn't want to know and Lunar went bust but I did think we would be covered for full cost

2 hours ago, Brecon said:

As the repair is not financially viable they are saying , basically, you have a scrap van and have probably based their offer on the scrap value.

You have had 4 years use of the van, despite any problems, so what you have paid and what it is worth now are miles apart, not in your favour sadly.

 

1 hour ago, Stevan said:

The real issue is how much you actually paid for the four years use of the van.

How would this compare with the amount you would be out of pocket if you had simply chosen to terminate the contract early yourself to trade it in on a new van?

So we've paid 6.5k for 4 years use of the van and nothing to show for it... I always thought the buyer had to be in the same financial position they were in before they bought the van?

 

2 hours ago, Brecon said:

As the repair is not financially viable they are saying , basically, you have a scrap van and have probably based their offer on the scrap value.

You have had 4 years use of the van, despite any problems, so what you have paid and what it is worth now are miles apart, not in your favour sadly.

The van is in great condition.. apart from the cracked roof.  There is no way it would go for scrap 

Edited by alibabaxx
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Do you keep the caravan after a payout or does it then belong to the finance company ? Have you told them the offer is not high enough and provided what you think is the right amount since they are saying £8k is too high but then offered a low amount expecting you initially rejecting it ? 

 

£8k sounds a lot for a rear panel. I was told a new front panel for our caravan was around £3k. If you have put some tape over the crack has it stopped water getting in and the inside now dried out ? If so then you could probably continue to use the caravan. Have you considered alternative ways of repairing the crack, other manufacturers provide stick on patches ?

Edited by Paul1957
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Apologies for my lack of knowledge of finance agreements, as I have never been involved with any, but are you saying that BH have offered you £3,600, decided to cancel your contract, and therefore you are not required to make any further payments? If so, and in the assumption that because Lunar have gone out of business, it will be very difficult, if at all possible, to obtain a new rear panel, it may be worth considering a repair to the panel, if that's doable.

 

Edit; Sorry Paul, you beat me to it.

Edited by Eddie
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1 hour ago, alibabaxx said:

The van is in great condition.. apart from the cracked roof.  There is no way it would go for scrap 

 

That is a matter of conjecture.

You said earlier that "  we found a large crack in rear of roof that was letting a large amount of water ingress in"

so the situation is that there is most likely water damage internally that would require a lot of money to put right.

 

Also, at 4 plus years old all the internal equipment such as water heater, fridge, space heater, etc etc are all out of warranty, so no real commercial value now.

 

I know it is hard to take in as the owner, but from a business stance that is the way they will look at it.

 

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28 minutes ago, scotsstag said:

Do you get £3600 plus get to keep the 'van ?

 

That's the key issue which the OP has not clarified. We must remember this is a finance company, not a new for old insurance policy. If the OP gets the payment and keeps the van then he is quids in big style though from the comments I am reading "between the lines" that he does not so then IMHO would be out of pocket, though not that much. 

 

We don't know the precise model of van, so cannot estimate the price new, but the finance company will consider the lifespan of the van at twenty years, at £30k new this amounts to a cost of ownership of £1500 per year, 4 years = £6000 and as the OP admits it has been well used, so not that much out of pocket. £25k new would amount to £5k over four years and remember you have had the best four years, the new years. 

 

Whichever way I don't see it as being a bad position. If he keeps the van he has £3600 to get it fixed and (assuming it was a ten year finance) six payment free years or at worse has £3600 deposit towards a new van and start out with fresh finance. Not a bad position either way. 

 

However if the OP does feel he is unduly out of pocket the ombudsmen for this would be the Financial Ombudsmen Service. They are very approachable and easy to deal with so speak to them and see what they say. The general intention of section 75 (or 75a) is that your are not out of pocket but I believe they are allowed to take account of previous use and depreciation when deciding on a settlement. 

 

 

Edited by PMW
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2 hours ago, alibabaxx said:

 

 

So we've paid 6.5k for 4 years use of the van and nothing to show for it... I always thought the buyer had to be in the same financial position they were in before they bought the van?

 

 

6.5k for four years use of what started out as a brand new van sounds very much like what you would expect  as depreciation if you had bought it outright and then traded it in.

Being "in the same financial position" needs to take some account of the use of the van you have had.

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2 hours ago, Paul1957 said:

Do you keep the caravan after a payout or does it then belong to the finance company ? Have you told them the offer is not high enough and provided what you think is the right amount since they are saying £8k is too high but then offered a low amount expecting you initially rejecting it ? 

 

£8k sounds a lot for a rear panel. I was told a new front panel for our caravan was around £3k. If you have put some tape over the crack has it stopped water getting in and the inside now dried out ? If so then you could probably continue to use the caravan. Have you considered alternative ways of repairing the crack, other manufacturers provide stick on patches ?

No the caravan will be taken away :( I've said it feels unfair to have no caravan and only a small part of money we have paid out over the last 4 years.  It's not just the rear panel needs replacing, but the wall boards and ceiling have water ingress, plus the front panel has a crack.  We did put tape over but it needs fixing as rather a large crack.

2 hours ago, Eddie said:

Apologies for my lack of knowledge of finance agreements, as I have never been involved with any, but are you saying that BH have offered you £3,600, decided to cancel your contract, and therefore you are not required to make any further payments? If so, and in the assumption that because Lunar have gone out of business, it will be very difficult, if at all possible, to obtain a new rear panel, it may be worth considering a repair to the panel, if that's doable.

 

Edit; Sorry Paul, you beat me to it.

Yes very difficult to get anyone to do the work because of Lunar going bust.  No more payments to make but they will take the caravan

1 hour ago, Brecon said:

 

That is a matter of conjecture.

You said earlier that "  we found a large crack in rear of roof that was letting a large amount of water ingress in"

so the situation is that there is most likely water damage internally that would require a lot of money to put right.

 

Also, at 4 plus years old all the internal equipment such as water heater, fridge, space heater, etc etc are all out of warranty, so no real commercial value now.

 

I know it is hard to take in as the owner, but from a business stance that is the way they will look at it.

 

yes that's true I suppose, but we have really looked after it. Inside it looks like new.. just the roof crack is the main problem

 

1 hour ago, scotsstag said:

Do you get £3600 plus get to keep the 'van ?

No... I wish :( 

 

52 minutes ago, PMW said:

 

That's the key issue which the OP has not clarified. We must remember this is a finance company, not a new for old insurance policy. If the OP gets the payment and keeps the van then he is quids in big style though from the comments I am reading "between the lines" that he does not so then IMHO would be out of pocket, though not that much. 

 

We don't know the precise model of van, so cannot estimate the price new, but the finance company will consider the lifespan of the van at twenty years, at £30k new this amounts to a cost of ownership of £1500 per year, 4 years = £6000 and as the OP admits it has been well used, so not that much out of pocket. £25k new would amount to £5k over four years and remember you have had the best four years, the new years. 

 

Whichever way I don't see it as being a bad position. If he keeps the van he has £3600 to get it fixed and (assuming it was a ten year finance) six payment free years or at worse has £3600 deposit towards a new van and start out with fresh finance. Not a bad position either way. 

 

However if the OP does feel he is unduly out of pocket the ombudsmen for this would be the Financial Ombudsmen Service. They are very approachable and easy to deal with so speak to them and see what they say. The general intention of section 75 (or 75a) is that your are not out of pocket but I believe they are allowed to take account of previous use and depreciation when deciding on a settlement. 

 

 

It's not an expensive van  a Lunar Venus 580... around 19000 I think new for old.  I will try the ombudsmen service thanks .  We did ask about buying the van off them but they wouldn't give us this option :( 

 

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38 minutes ago, DerbyClubman said:

 

2016 Venus 580 just been sold on Caravan Finder. Advertised price £13,500

 

https://www.caravanfinder.co.uk/touring-caravans-for-sale/search-caravans/venus-580-used-caravan-2016-staffordshire-tk32143de

 

.

yes just looked at that.  sickening really but I suppose a dealer would never give me that for it. Plus ours needs the repairs.  The finance company tried to make out ours would be worth 8 - 9k - in good condition- at an auction site!  They wouldn't even let me buy it off them

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43 minutes ago, DerbyClubman said:

 

2016 Venus 580 just been sold on Caravan Finder. Advertised price £13,500

 

https://www.caravanfinder.co.uk/touring-caravans-for-sale/search-caravans/venus-580-used-caravan-2016-staffordshire-tk32143de

 

.


 How much would it have sold for with a large crack in the roof, water damage and requiring new front and rear panels.

 

The answer is it wouldn’t, because the dealer could not have sold it in that condition other than for spares or scrap.

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I wonder what value Black Horse have placed on it as an “uneconomical to repair” caravan?

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9 hours ago, alibabaxx said:

It's not just the rear panel needs replacing, but the wall boards and ceiling have water ingress, plus the front panel has a crack. 

So, after the initial post it now transpires that there is even more damage to the front panel and that the insides need stripping out and replacing after fixing any leaks

 

1 hour ago, alibabaxx said:

The finance company tried to make out ours would be worth 8 - 9k - in good condition- at an auction site!

But your van is NOT in good condition !!!!!

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1 hour ago, DerbyClubman said:

 

2016 Venus 580 just been sold on Caravan Finder. Advertised price £13,500

 

https://www.caravanfinder.co.uk/touring-caravans-for-sale/search-caravans/venus-580-used-caravan-2016-staffordshire-tk32143de

 

.

The value of any non-new item is only ever what someone is willing to pay. For cars this is less of an issue because so many are traded every day. For caravans the volumes are very much lower and depend so much on individual buyers who may, or may not, have set their hearts on a particular brand and model.

Condition is also very subjective, one persons definition of "good" may, in someone else's view be excellent! 

It really is, unless a large number are traded, impossible to determine a market value for a caravan  unless you have two parties ready to trade.

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10 hours ago, alibabaxx said:

No the caravan will be taken away :( I've said it feels unfair to have no caravan and only a small part of money we have paid out over the last 4 years.  

 

If you had bought the van outright and then sold it on the open market after 4 years you would still have "only a small part" of the money you paid out!

As it is, you have the refund, plus the payments you are not now going to have to make, all of which can be put towards a van of your choice.

If they gave you a full refund you would be better off than you started, you would still have all your money PLUS you would have had four years free use of a nice new van!

You can quibble all you like over a couple of £k on the market value question, but overall, you have not had a bad deal!

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30 minutes ago, Brecon said:

So, after the initial post it now transpires that there is even more damage to the front panel and that the insides need stripping out and replacing after fixing any leaks

 

But your van is NOT in good condition !!!!!

No.. I know but I'm sure in good condition it would get more than that. They are selling at dealerships for 13.5k.   The front panel is an easy fix.  It's the rear of the van that needs stripping due to water coming through the crack in roof.  I'm not disputing  I'm just after advice if the offer is good or they are chancing their arm

Edited by alibabaxx
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As painful as it might be, given the cracks and water ingress you have suggested you have, Lunar spares are likely to be a rare as rocking horse pooh, sounds to me you are best shot of it at any cost, with what you have been offered you have a decent deposit on something else and you wont be spending the rest of your caravan days chasing the dreaded damp.. 

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24 minutes ago, Stevan said:

If you had bought the van outright and then sold it on the open market after 4 years you would still have "only a small part" of the money you paid out!

As it is, you have the refund, plus the payments you are not now going to have to make, all of which can be put towards a van of your choice.

If they gave you a full refund you would be better off than you started, you would still have all your money PLUS you would have had four years free use of a nice new van!

You can quibble all you like over a couple of £k on the market value question, but overall, you have not had a bad deal!

True...

21 minutes ago, Jacko1 said:

As painful as it might be, given the cracks and water ingress you have suggested you have, Lunar spares are likely to be a rare as rocking horse pooh, sounds to me you are best shot of it at any cost, with what you have been offered you have a decent deposit on something else and you wont be spending the rest of your caravan days chasing the dreaded damp.. 

Can't believe new caravans are so badly made.  It's hardly been towed so god knows how it got the crack on the roof... prob best shot of it yes like you say and maybe get a cheaper second hand one

1 hour ago, Grandpa Steve said:


 How much would it have sold for with a large crack in the roof, water damage and requiring new front and rear panels.

 

The answer is it wouldn’t, because the dealer could not have sold it in that condition other than for spares or scrap.

I bet some dealer will buy it at auction and then repair by just filling in rather than replace,   I'm sure to keep it cheap and then sell to unsuspecting buyer.....

Edited by alibabaxx
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10 hours ago, Stevan said:

6.5k for four years use of what started out as a brand new van sounds very much like what you would expect  as depreciation if you had bought it outright and then traded it in.

Being "in the same financial position" needs to take some account of the use of the van you have had.

I paid £28k for my van 2.5 yrs ago , I'm trading it in and I'm getting £20k trade in , which is the best from 3 dealers , therefore £6500 for 4 years use seems good to me

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9 minutes ago, gradyp said:

I paid £28k for my van 2.5 yrs ago , I'm trading it in and I'm getting £20k trade in , which is the best from 3 dealers , therefore £6500 for 4 years use seems good to me

Gosh that seems a bad deal... only 2.5 years old! I'm sure they'll sell it on for 25k easy

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22 minutes ago, alibabaxx said:

I bet some dealer will buy it at auction and then repair by just filling in I'm sure to keep it cheap and then sell to unsuspecting buyer.....

 

You can speculate about what "may " happen to it after it leaves you, but no dealer would touch it and risk the amount of money needed to bring it to saleable condition given the tighter Consumer Rights in force now.

28 minutes ago, alibabaxx said:

No.. I know but I'm sure in good condition it would get more than that

Maybe, but your van is not in good condition, it is damaged, leaking and needs a lot of work and money to put right. 

 

24 minutes ago, alibabaxx said:

Can't believe new caravans are so badly made

 

Time to wake up and smell the coffee !!!

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