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Torque Comparison - noticeable difference ?


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49 minutes ago, Stevan said:

I remember those days well, a typical petrol engine managed about 40bhp/litre, any attempt to get much more resulted in a very "cammy" engine, virtually unsuitable for normal driving and not very reliable. These days 80 bhp/litre is commonplace for a diesel and 100bhp/litre is not considered to be unusual.

But do you ever wonder about the long term reliability of these small engines with prodigious  performance?   I suppose that as long as they are engineered  for the stresses  involved they shouldn't  be any less reliable, but are they  prone to become temperamental ?

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Torque is what get you to the top of the hill and power determines how fast you get there.   Horse power  is a function of torque x rpm.   In a practical sense , I doubt that the OP would have any p

To put it in layman's terms. Power determines whether or not you will get up the hill. Torque determines how easy or relaxing it might feel.

Personally I would disagree , it's torque that gets you up the hill ... Posted to prove my  point and also yours .

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6 minutes ago, rovinmad said:

But do you ever wonder about the long term reliability of these small engines with prodigious  performance?   I suppose that as long as they are engineered  for the stresses  involved they shouldn't  be any less reliable, but are they  prone to become temperamental ?

Not really, no, modern materials technology, manufacturing methods and lubricant technology are streets ahead of those 40  or so years ago.

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2 hours ago, CJ1149 said:

Good point Lee.   

Similar to the one-time school of thought that said "you'll be ok with that caravan 'cos you have a 1600cc car".

 

My grandad used to tow his caravan with a 1.6 L-reg nissan primera. 

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That's ok as long as the cvan was compatible.  I was just saying that there was no more logic in quoting engine size as there is in quoting bhp - the car and van need to "match".  I used a 1.6 Cavalier to tug a Mardon 5 berth but it was hard work at times especially places like Porlock hill.   

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1 hour ago, Dave87 said:

My grandad used to tow his caravan with a 1.6 L-reg nissan primera. 

 

My first caravan was towed with a 1300cc petrol and then a few 1600cc petrols.  Back then cars were around 1100kg and caravan about 800kg.

 

Power and torque have increased but so has weight.

Yeti 2.0TDi DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Citigo ASG, Swift Challenger.

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3 hours ago, CJ1149 said:

Rover V8 brought back memories.

I cherished a factory MGBGTV8 for many years until 4 years ago.  Now that was a really torquey motor.

 

Yep, nothing less than a big V8 in a proper sports car. ;)

 

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Stay safe - Griff.  :ph34r:

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The Americans used to have an expression that “sort of fits” this debate 

 

”Ain’t no substitute for cubic inches” 

 

But that was in the days before turbo chargers of course! 

Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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My first towcar was a 1250 Hillman Avenger.  I had a 12 foot Trophy four berth.  Towed all over.  Yes I had to use the gearbox but that's what it's  for.  Great little car and a load less trouble than the Triumph 2000 I changed it for.

 

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3 hours ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

 

But that was in the days before turbo chargers of course! 

 

And electric motors. :(

Yeti 2.0TDi DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Citigo ASG, Swift Challenger.

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Just bought an electric min, now that's torque!All available from standstill the thing flies. Feels far faster than our 228bhp jcw! Sadly I like changing gear and even towing would prefer petrol any day.  

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The US model of the Kia Niro EV has a towing capacity of 2800lb, the UK model N/A, it proves before long we will see affordable EV's capable of towing.

2020 Mitsubishi Outlander 2.4  PHEV and 2016 Swift Conqueror 480 HT

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Possibly the only way to find out is to try them but his is impractical. I think the drop of about 15% might be enough to be noticeable, but probably not enough to be a problem as it still looks high enough for most towing purposes.

Possibly looking at the engine speed that  peak torque is delivered at will help, as the lower the engine speed the better.

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31 minutes ago, Wildwood said:

 

Possibly looking at the engine speed that  peak torque is delivered at will help, as the lower the engine speed the better.

 

Peak torque doesn't always tell the full story.  Some engines quote very high peak figures but that torque is only available for a couple of hundred rpm and then drops of rapidly. Others slightly lower peak torque but over a much wider range which means more power and more accessible torque.

 

An example of a really peaky engine is the Merc 250cdi's. 

image.png.860de131de2e14338813c8203c86d92e.png

 

This TSi unit has a slightly lower peak but the drivability and performance is in a different league

 

image.png.434754648ea7bf077c572451d2a68216.png

 

 

It's the overall spread of torque and gearing that makes the whole picture.

 

If the OP is looking at a later T4 it will have maximum torque from 1700 to 5000rpm and possibly with an 8 speed auto with 25% lower gearing than the D4.

 

Should make for a pleasant experience.

 

Edited by logiclee

Yeti 2.0TDi DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Citigo ASG, Swift Challenger.

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1 hour ago, Oscarmax said:

The US model of the Kia Niro EV has a towing capacity of 2800lb, the UK model N/A, it proves before long we will see affordable EV's capable of towing.

 

Thats still low at 1270kg but an improvement on VW ID4 at 1200kg.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, logiclee said:

 

Peak torque doesn't always tell the full story.  Some engines quote very high peak figures but that torque is only available for a couple of hundred rpm and then drops of rapidly. Others slightly lower peak torque but over a much wider range which means more power and more accessible torque.

 

An example of a really peaky engine is the Merc 250cdi's. 

image.png.860de131de2e14338813c8203c86d92e.png

 

This TSi unit has a slightly lower peak but the drivability and performance is in a different league

 

image.png.83bc6ba3cd74743d28a2180cb7256bc9.png

 

 

It's the overall spread of torque and gearing that makes the whole picture.

 

If the OP is looking at a later T4 it will have maximum torque from 1700 to 5000rpm and possibly with an 8 speed auto with 25% lower gearing than the D4.

 

Should make for a pleasant experience.

 

I would be interested in the 320ps TSI Tiguan which has 400nm of torque, but given the purchase price the, VED, and 21mpg as tested I can't show any enthusiasm, I think my chose would be the uprated diesel at 200ps with 400nm from 1750rpm to 3500rpm, more than enough to tow my 1700kg caravan.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, xtrailman said:

 

I would be interested in the 320ps TSI Tiguan which has 400nm of torque, but given the purchase price the, VED, and 21mpg as tested I can't show any enthusiasm, I think my chose would be the uprated diesel at 200ps with 400nm from 1750rpm to 3500rpm, more than enough to tow my 1700kg caravan.  

 

 

 

I wonder what the GTE will perform like. 1.4TSi Hybrid. 245PS 400NM . Will depend on that battery pack.

Yeti 2.0TDi DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Citigo ASG, Swift Challenger.

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8 minutes ago, logiclee said:

 

I wonder what the GTE will perform like. 1.4TSi Hybrid. 245PS 400NM . Will depend on that battery pack.

One thing that does matter with hybrids is whether they can cruise at 60 with a caravan on and still charge the battery at the same time. It was reported with the early Mitsubishi PHEV that it could not, so on a long run you could be left with IC engine only and struggle on hills.

I do not know how current hybrids fare on this.

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11 minutes ago, logiclee said:

 

I wonder what the GTE will perform like. 1.4TSi Hybrid. 245PS 400NM . Will depend on that battery pack.

We did consider the new Skoda Superb estate PHEV, apparently its sister car VW Passat GTE is an excellent towcar

2020 Mitsubishi Outlander 2.4  PHEV and 2016 Swift Conqueror 480 HT

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1 hour ago, logiclee said:

 

I wonder what the GTE will perform like. 1.4TSi Hybrid. 245PS 400NM . Will depend on that battery pack.

 

I can't find out if it can tow or its limit, but I doubt it will suit me as the boot is smaller and the auto 6 speed? Its also considerably heavier so not good for solo driving on the 1.4 alone.

 

A full electric version might do the job once the more powerful 4x4 version arrives, I rarely tow longer than 2 hours anymore.

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33 minutes ago, xtrailman said:

 

I can't find out if it can tow or its limit, but I doubt it will suit me as the boot is smaller and the auto 6 speed? Its also considerably heavier so not good for solo driving on the 1.4 alone.

 

A full electric version might do the job once the more powerful 4x4 version arrives, I rarely tow longer than 2 hours anymore.

 

The DQ400E is six speed but with the electric motor 7 or 8 speeds are not required according to VAG. (Or there's mot enough space depending on how you view it)

 

For full electric may as well look at the MEB platform, so that will be ID4 or Skoda Enyaq. But very expensive at the moment. 

Yeti 2.0TDi DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Citigo ASG, Swift Challenger.

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2 hours ago, logiclee said:

 

The DQ400E is six speed but with the electric motor 7 or 8 speeds are not required according to VAG. (Or there's mot enough space depending on how you view it)

 

For full electric may as well look at the MEB platform, so that will be ID4 or Skoda Enyaq. But very expensive at the moment. 

 

The old 1.4 Tiguan did have a 6 speed dsg but the 1.5 with the same power has a 7 speed dsg.

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1 hour ago, xtrailman said:

 

The old 1.4 Tiguan did have a 6 speed dsg but the 1.5 with the same power has a 7 speed dsg.

 

The hybrid boxes are totally different.

 

Integral motor and three clutches.

 

image.png.19b889ec554b54452d4fc0fb178d5491.png

Edited by logiclee

Yeti 2.0TDi DSG 4X4 L&K, Octavia TSi Manual, Citigo ASG, Swift Challenger.

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Very clever technology but very complex indeed. I would imagine the potential repair cost in the event of a serious fault would require a mortgage application! 

 

I would not consider keeping one beyond its warranty period.

Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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