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34 minutes ago, WispMan said:

Are talking here about a timed served skilled man like a fitter or turner? Or a proper engineer with a degree in engineering?

 

Yes I have a degree in electrical engineering (AMEME Hons) and a Qualified Engineer Cert from the MQB(HSE) qualifications board.  I didn't do Chartered though.

 

In my previous employment Engineer was a protected title in LAW and required certification and approval from the HSE .

 

 

 

 

Edited by logiclee

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We have smart meters for gas and electricity.  I can't see why folk have a problem with them.  We don't need to have the meters read or send in the readings.  It cost nothing to have them fitted and w

No one coming round to read the meters and no more estimated bills plus, if you are of a mind to, you can monitor your energy consumption pretty much as it happens. It can be quite an education. Yes, 

Reluctance to have Smart Meters installed, beyond just resistance to change, generally comes down to one of a small number of topics.   Security of the meters is a very common one.  This is

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4 hours ago, logiclee said:

 

 

 

Six years further education and seven years training, Actually quicker to become a Medical Doctor.

 

Not quite  the path goes somewhat like this, degree 5 years, foundation 2 years, CMT or ACCS 2 - 3 years, speciality 4 - 8, years could be longer depending on speciality, then if you decide to swap specialities 20+ years can just fly by. 😉

 

The shortest is around 10 - 11 years for a non specialised GP, this excludes being able to perform minor GP surgery, training for which can be taken later.

Common sense isn't a gift, it's a punishment because you have to deal with everyone who doesn't have it.  :rolleyes:

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10 minutes ago, Silversurf said:

 

Not quite  the path goes somewhat like this, degree 5 years, foundation 2 years, CMT or ACCS 2 - 3 years, speciality 4 - 8, years could be longer depending on speciality, then if you decide to swap specialities 20+ years can just fly by. 😉

 

The shortest is around 10 - 11 years for a non specialised GP, this excludes being able to perform minor GP surgery, training for which can be taken later.

 

Perhaps I should have said gain a Medical Doctorate and work as a Junior Doctor? :) 

 

Is that 7?

 

To be fair I've not known the MQB to issue "Engineers" qualification with less than 10 years experience and the correct qualifications. 

Edited by logiclee
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Hope we are not saying unless someone been and got a degree is not an engineer?

Regards, David
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1 minute ago, David 38 said:

Hope we are not saying unless someone been and got a degree is not an engineer?

 

Different industries have always had different minimum Qualifications for the role of Engineer.

 

I'd not consider a two week course to put up Sky Dishes and install Sky Q to be sufficient.

 

Some industries still have minimum qualifications set by the HSE to be "Engineer" as the job "Engineer" has specific responsibilities in Law.   

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I have always understood the term "Engineer" to be someone who holds chartered status. This means an honours degree or equivalent plus several documented years of experience in a junior role before applying for chartered status in the appropriate institution for your profession.

Given logiclee's qualifications, he was previously in the coal mining industry where correct training and schooling was taken seriously.

 

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2 hours ago, staffordshirechina said:

, he was previously in the coal mining industry where correct training and schooling was taken seriously.

 

 

Indeed it was, I've worked many places in the last 35 years but nowhere has an apprenticeship anywhere close.

 

And the reason why in the last decade I've recruited 9 electricians to my maintenance team and 8 of those of those did a Coal Board Apprenticeship.

 

This is a bit of a read, an old article  and not fully accurate but explains why lessons learned mining in the UK still keeps everyone safe around the world.  

Even yourself every time you fill up with fuel.

 

And explains why "Engineer" has minimum requirements and can only be appointed by the HSE Qualifications Board.  Not just because someone in HR thinks it looks good on a job advert.

 

The Colliery Electrician By : Ronald Jenkins Jnr

A study and appreciation, of the character, training & unique role of a craftsman, whose presence was so essential for the safe use of electricity in a coal mine.

Introduction :

An explosion of methane gas and coal dust in a South Wales coalmine in 1913, resulted in the deaths of 439 Men & Boys (+1 rescuer) and nearly 50 horses. At a time when electricity was starting to be used in British coalmines, the worse mining disaster of a British coalmine was caused by a ‘spark’ from an electric signal bell.

The disaster heralded the development of a new science and safe practices, in the use of electricity in coalmines and other explosive & volatile industrial environments. An understanding in the preventative science and technology of ‘intrinsic safety’ and ‘flameproof technology’ developed, which in turn created a unique ‘hybrid’ specialised breed of Craftsman,,, The Colliery Electrician.

It was the British coal mining Industry, through disaster & tragedy that lead the way to develop practical solutions, found today in every petrol filling station, oil/gas platform, petro-chemical refinery or coal mine. This article reveals and defines the occupation of a coal mines electrician.

History of and Importance of Coal mining.

Today, whilst there are several other ways to generate electrical energy, younger generations may have little idea that ‘coal’ had massive importance to the prosperity and function of the Nation. It is not so long ago since Britain had a modern, proud and highly productive coal mining industry.

For more than 250 years and during times of War, the coal industry was the backbone of British industry. Coal was indeed King ! In 1947 the British coal industry was nationalised and became, The National Coal Board, (NCB). In 1973 without pre-warning, the (Arab) OPEC Countries, ‘quadrupled’ the price of oil. This had a massive effect upon the western industrialised world. The event further emphasising the reliance & importance of coal. At this time, 86% of the United Kingdom national electricity was generated from coal fired power stations.

Many people today may imagine a coal mine as a deep primitive hole in the ground with legions of men slavish hacking away with picks & shovels. Perhaps correctly portrayed in some mining museums but ,,, not so, it was in fact a highly productive, technically advanced industry, a leader in mechanisation and major contributor to the economy of the Nation.

 

Science & Lessons learned from Disaster

As early as the 1890’s many progressive collieries were introducing and operating with electricity, more often generating power on site in ‘new’ Power Houses. There were a great many accidents during the period. One accident typical of the time, when a ‘pipe fitter’ climbed to access some pipework, came into contact with live overhead wires and was electrocuted. Workmen in those days did not readily comprehend the danger associated with electricity.

Some of the early electrical equipment to be installed underground, were telephones, haulage signals and electric motors on pumps and haulages.

The disastrous explosion at the Welsh Senghenydd Colliery, concerned an electric signalling system, using 24 volt ‘lead acid’ (Leclanche cell) batteries, operating electric bells on the main haulage engine & roadway. A major Accident Investigation followed, it was determined that Methane gas ( followed by highly volatile - coal dust ) was ignited from the ‘sparking contacts’ of an electric bell.

In understanding the cause of such destruction, the science and technology of ‘intrinsic safety’ and use of ‘flameproof equipment’ was developed. In simple terms, ‘a means to control & suppress dangerous incendive sparking’ so that electricity could be used safely.

The tragedy and cause of Senghenydd and many other such disasters, was therefore studied, understood and deeply ingrained by every Colliery Electrician.

Today such a volatile environment is classified and defined as : Zone ‘0’ is an area in which an explosive atmosphere is present continuously for long periods of time or will frequently occur. Hence, the technology and practices of intrinsic safety are strictly applied throughout the World.

Electrical Apprenticeship, training & Higher Qualifcation :

Any young person who should take up a career to become an ‘Electrician’ will realise very quickly that ‘Electrical Engineering’ is a vast subject ! Today, many apprenticeship training schemes have been ‘shrunk & condensed’. Should any student think he/she will be a master of such a profession in just a couple of years ! they will be deluded,,, !

In a coalmine, the prospect of an incompetent electrician, not properly trained or qualified, would be a disaster waiting to happen ! Where electrical equipment, high current & voltages are used under-ground in a Zone ‘0’ environment, there could be no short cuts in training or study of craftsmen & technicians.

The appointment of mining electricians is regulated by the Health & Safety Executive(HSE) and Mining Qualifications Board(MQB) under the terms of the Management and Administration of Safety and Health at Mines Regulations 1965 and later 1993.

The route to qualification entailed the following :

· 4 Yrs Craft Apprenticeship + Written examination each year = M&Q Class II Electrician.

· 3 Yrs further Technicians study + Written exam each year. = M&Q Class I Technician.

· 2 Yrs Honours Degree + Written exam each year. = (AMEME Hons) Engineer

Although, a coalmine was not every young persons first choice for a career, the National Coal Board did have an excellent Indentured Apprentice Training Scheme. Many electricians stopped at 4 years, however It was possible, if an Apprentice - Student passed his exams in successive years, he might qualify as an Electrical Engineer in 9 years. 

Hence, by knowledge and stipulation of Law, Competency was ensured by prescribed qualification.

An unparalleled comparison :

In commerce, construction, light or heavy industry, there is much to distinguish a Colliery Electrician from any other industrial electrician. Whilst the apprentice Colliery Electrician, would study the very same subjects of theory, science and workshop practices, there was indeed a further dimension of work & study to be mastered, in order to qualify as a colliery electrician !

Consider the apprentice Colliery Electrician, had to work under the ground, in total darkness, in cold, heat, humidity, sometimes wet, in loud noise, often breathing copious dust ! Working in confined space, on his hands & knees, surrounded by heavy machinery, sometimes an impatient Overman on his back and with the danger of rock falling upon his head ! We ate our sandwiches with the dust we breathed. An environment with no canteens, coffee machines, no toilets, handwashing or mess rooms,,, no ‘popping outside’ for a breath of fresh air or cigarette !

The most difficult of location and discomfort of surroundings, is where the Electrician would be expected to perform his duties at all times, to the prescribed safe standards. By any measure or comparison, the Colliery Electrician was indeed an extraordinary character !

The Technicalities of the job !

Understanding the ‘wider scope of work’ undertaken by the colliery electrician in comparison with the spectrum of work of the general outside (surface) electrician.

The colliery electrician would work on equipment with voltages & currents measured in ‘milli-amperes’ and ‘milli-volts’, whilst the power distribution system in a colliery would be 3.3 KV, 6.6 KV and 11kV. ( that’s 11000 volts ! ). Power loading machines (coal cutters) used on the coal face would range from 125 H.P. (93Kw) to more modern machines in excess of 1500Kw, operating on 3300 Volts. As a measure of 21st Century progress, today it is possible if a (Joy) power loader has broken down underground, an electrician can plug-in a ‘lap-top’ computer, connect directly to a maintenance workshop in Kentucky,USA, and thus remotely diagnose a fault and effect repair

Edited by logiclee
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A very interesting read indeed! 

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Experience is an awful teacher who ends up sending you simply horrifying bills

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6 hours ago, logiclee said:

 

Perhaps I should have said gain a Medical Doctorate and work as a Junior Doctor? :) 

 

Is that 7?

 

 

 

Yes, that's about right, I remember there being  a lad a few years back who graduated at around 21/22, after being accepted at 17, which made his graduation in around 4-5 years, which is exceptional.

 

I can't remember his name but must look him up to see what he's up to now.

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Common sense isn't a gift, it's a punishment because you have to deal with everyone who doesn't have it.  :rolleyes:

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3 hours ago, logiclee said:

 

Indeed it was, I've worked many places in the last 35 years but nowhere has an apprenticeship anywhere close.

 

 

I thought so. I too trained in the industry, only as a mining engineer. I retired as a mine manager last year. I still do a bit of consultancy but will retire fully next year, 50 years is enough I think.

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10 hours ago, staffordshirechina said:

 

I thought so. I too trained in the industry, only as a mining engineer. I retired as a mine manager last year. I still do a bit of consultancy but will retire fully next year, 50 years is enough I think.

 

I never made Unit Engineer, the industry was winding down too quickly,  I was shift charge engineer and Deputy Engineer. 

I then moved to the other end of the chain, the generation sector.

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