Smart meters and EVs

[halifaxdan]

The day will come when the protocol is cracked and some kid shuts down half the country or holds us to ransom. Anything connected to the internet will one day be hacked. I just hope the meters can do over the air updates to patch vulnerabilities as they appear. 

[David 38]

Yes but you may more for gas/electric if you do not have them installed, it's we all forced to pay for things on direct debit.

2 minutes ago, halifaxdan said:

The day will come when the protocol is cracked and some kid shuts down half the country or holds us to ransom. Anything connected to the internet will one day be hacked. I just hope the meters can do over the air updates to patch vulnerabilities as they appear. 

We have been told earlier they use the mobile phone network not your internet if I understood that right.

[halifaxdan]

4 minutes ago, David 38 said:

Yes but you may more for gas/electric if you do not have them installed, it's we all forced to pay for things on direct debit.

We have been told earlier they use the mobile phone network not your internet if I understood that right.

I expect the phone network is just the link to the internet from the meter. 
 

In the north though I think it was a proprietary wireless network of an American company. 

Edited September 23, 2020 by halifaxdan

[Xyleth]

Nothing about the smart metering network for either CSP goes anywhere near the internet I assure you.  Even on the CSP south / central network that uses GSM it is a private slice of the public network and not Internet routed.  CSP north is even more isolated.  I know because I designed large parts of that network infrastructure and I still have the scars from the battles with security.

[Mr Plodd]

3 minutes ago, Xyleth said:

Nothing about the smart metering network for either CSP goes anywhere near the internet I assure you.  Even on the CSP south / central network that uses GSM it is a private slice of the public network and not Internet routed.  CSP north is even more isolated.  I know because I designed large parts of that network infrastructure and I still have the scars from the battles with security.

 

 

But “they” (the conspiracy theorists) clearly know much better than you 

[Dave Capiro owner]

14 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

 

But “they” (the conspiracy theorists) clearly know much better than you 

are you suggesting the possibility of meter control and deliberate supply interruption is a conspiracy theory?

 

AS Xyleth suggests this is a possibility in the future.

[Silversurf]

6 minutes ago, Dave Capiro owner said:

are you suggesting the possibility of meter control and deliberate supply interruption is a conspiracy theory?

 

AS Xyleth suggests this is a possibility in the future.

 

As it was in the 3 day week ?

[halifaxdan]

If nothing else it would make a good movie 😁

[halifaxdan]

43 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

 

But “they” (the conspiracy theorists) clearly know much better than you 

All the technologies start off with good intentions, just look at mobile phones. Now we all carry a 1984 style tracking beacon with built in camera and mic. 
 

“computer” turn the lights on. Sorry Dave I can’t do that, you have been smoking again and will have to be punished, no electricity for 24hrs.  😂

Edited September 23, 2020 by halifaxdan

[halifaxdan]

16 minutes ago, halifaxdan said:

Obviously I am just being silly but I am confident the smart meter system is Built to the highest standards and apart from a state sponsored attack it would be pretty much secure. 

Edited September 23, 2020 by halifaxdan

[Wildwood]

Octopus are not against smart meters, but believe it is your choice as to whether you have one. They will offer them but do not harass you or increase your tariff if you do not fit one. 

I did read we are now looking at a third type to replace the second type so I do wonder if there is any point fitting one just now.

[logiclee]

Most people don't have a clue about the work and money it takes to keep the power on. 

 

It's not just the megawatts either, it's frequency, power factor and that requires the correct mix of base loading and renewable power in the correct areas for the expected load.

 

It's all done on complex modelling and is very much time of year and weather dependent.

 

Generators bid years in advance to be available and bid daily to run. 

 

A large power station could get called to run with a few house notice and then at the last minute get called off which costs tens of thousands.

 

Smart Meters allow far more real time data in specific areas, they make the modelling easier which should make the grid more efficient. As EV charging becomes more common and the country has more renewable generation this will be far more important.

And yes variable EV charging rates and even pulling power from EV's will be used in future years. 

[halifaxdan]

15 minutes ago, logiclee said:

Most people don't have a clue about the work and money it takes to keep the power on. 

 

It's not just the megawatts either, it's frequency, power factor and that requires the correct mix of base loading and renewable power in the correct areas for the expected load.

 

It's all done on complex modelling and is very much time of year and weather dependent.

 

Generators bid years in advance to be available and bid daily to run. 

 

A large power station could get called to run with a few house notice and then at the last minute get called off which costs tens of thousands.

 

Smart Meters allow far more real time data in specific areas, they make the modelling easier which should make the grid more efficient. As EV charging becomes more common and the country has more renewable generation this will be far more important.

And yes variable EV charging rates and even pulling power from EV's will be used in future years. 

So what you are saying is what is good for the energy companies/providers is also good for us. This should translate into lower prices as we can run the network lean?

[logiclee]

19 minutes ago, halifaxdan said:

So what you are saying is what is good for the energy companies/providers is also good for us. This should translate into lower prices as we can run the network lean?

 

 

Lower Prices?

 

More like they won't go up as much.

 

We still need to get rid of gas by 2050.

[halifaxdan]

4 minutes ago, logiclee said:

 

 

Lower Prices?

 

More like they won't go up as much.

 

We still need to get rid of gas by 2050.

Ok, more specifically, prices lower than they would otherwise be if we didn’t have smart meters. 

[David 38]

1 minute ago, halifaxdan said:

Ok, more specifically, prices lower than they would otherwise be if we didn’t have smart meters. 

Smart meter users do get lower tariffs.

You won't get the tariffs I'm on unless you agree to smart meters.

[Silversurf]

23 minutes ago, logiclee said:

 

Smart Meters allow far more real time data in specific areas, they make the modelling easier which should make the grid more efficient.

 

 

That's if and when they work,  suppliers are still fitting SMETS1 meters !

 

Two of us on CT, there may be more, have  recently had their SMETS 2 meters go dumb, mine has only been in for 11 months, so I will be expected to give meter readings monthly which will only be done if and when I have time, my previous supplier only required readings once every three months, so I may revert to that timescale.

 

The smart meter was sort of forced on me so I could get the cheapest tariff, yes I could have refused but I had no problem with them fitting one simply because it benefited my pocket.

 

I wonder how I will go on when I move supplier at the end of October if, to give me the best price, they enquire if I have a smart meter, to which my honest answer will be yes.

 

If, I also mention that it has gone dumb, will they refuse to supply me with the smart meter tariff, or if I say nothing and they realise after a while, that the meter is not sending data, though they are a company that could use my SMETS2, will they then force me onto a higher tariff ?

 

Next month could bring interesting times. 😂

 

The only time that the grid will be more efficient, will be when virtually every consumer has a smart meter and more important, that at least 95% of the meters work all the time.

 

The initial deadline was 2020 ,then 2024, now 2025, it's getting to be like bids at a cattle auction.

 

There are around 20 million meters fitted to date so a long way to go to reach the target, but what's the point when  a great proportion of them turn dumb for various reasons and the suppliers have no idea how to get them communicating again.

 

As Mr. Burns wrote  "The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men Gang aft agley,"

 

 

 

 

[logiclee]

41 minutes ago, Silversurf said:

 

 

As Mr. Burns wrote  "The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men Gang aft agley,"

 

 

 

 

 

The great free market economy and enterprise. The UK's grid is a mess. Privatise the energy market then try and control it with legislation.

Doesn't work.

Then the big foreign European Generators can make a fortune from the UK.

 

That's where we are.

 

 

 

 

[Ern]

15 minutes ago, logiclee said:

 

The great free market economy and enterprise. The UK's grid is a mess. Privatise the energy market then try and control it with legislation.

Doesn't work.

Then the big foreign European Generators can make a fortune from the UK.

 

That's where we are.

 

 

 

 

Do you propose Nationalising it in favour of improved value for money? 

[logiclee]

9 hours ago, Ern said:

Do you propose Nationalising it in favour of improved value for money? 

 

What we have hasn't worked and has led to decades of underinvestment. Through the 90's and 00's we lived on the investment made in the 70's and 80's. We now have different mechanisms to try and get back to where we need to be but that has left the consumer with some of the highest energy prices in the world.

We no longer have any capacity or skill to fund and build our own large scale power stations. Hincley C will leave the consumer paying guaranteed over inflated energy costs for 50 years.

The French are not nationalised but the majority shareholders in EDF are the French Government.  They have a modern mostly carbon free grid with consumers enjoying lower energy prices than the UK.

 

[halifaxdan]

what happened to all the world class industries we had? The only thing I can think of is lack of engineers. When I was at school it was certainly not an aspiration of anyone I knew to become an engineer. If anyone did think that, we probably thought they were going to turn metal or something. In Germany engineer is a protected profession so the title of engineer is held in high regard like doctor or lawyer etc. Here the guy who installs sky is an engineer. 

Edited September 25, 2020 by halifaxdan

[logiclee]

44 minutes ago, halifaxdan said:

Here the guy who installs sky is an engineer. 

 

Yes, or the guy that repairs your washing machine is an engineer, and that really annoys real engineers like myself.  

 

Six years further education and seven years training, Actually quicker to become a Medical Doctor.

[Xyleth]

3 hours ago, halifaxdan said:

what happened to all the world class industries we had? The only thing I can think of is lack of engineers. When I was at school it was certainly not an aspiration of anyone I knew to become an engineer. If anyone did think that, we probably thought they were going to turn metal or something. In Germany engineer is a protected profession so the title of engineer is held in high regard like doctor or lawyer etc. Here the guy who installs sky is an engineer. 

In a word, Financialization.  

 

Everything has become subservient to the needs of finance and their need to extract rent from everything.  The myth that a company exists only to enhance 'shareholder value' is one of the most destructive ideas in the world.

 

Pretty much everything else flows from that.

[Ern]

2 hours ago, logiclee said:

 

Yes, or the guy that repairs your washing machine is an engineer, and that really annoys real engineers like myself.  

 

Six years further education and seven years training, Actually quicker to become a Medical Doctor.

I completely agree with you about people using the term Engineer. It should be the sole title of qualified Engineers.

I question your statement about domestic electricity prices  being among the highest in the world though. You cant compare the price of one commodity in a place without the whole picture. Aren't energy prices around Europe all similar?

[WispMan]

3 hours ago, logiclee said:

 

Six years further education and seven years training, Actually quicker to become a Medical Doctor.

Are talking here about a timed served skilled man like a fitter or turner? Or a proper engineer with a degree in engineering?