safe fill bottles

[Jay]

23 minutes ago, SteveH2020 said:

I've just joined the forum so sorry if I'm asking a daft question but,,

 

We're taking delivery of our new caravan in February & I really would like to start with the Safefill Gas bottle system.

 

Are people saying that the places (apart from Morrissions) to refill are being phased out?

 

 

Not at all. I have 5 locations I can fill up locally. 

There's an app you can download and it tells you of LPG locations

[meadowsweet]

Arriving at this thread late.  Our towcar Subaru Tribeca was already converted to LPG/Petrol when we purchased it.  We are lucky as there are two service stations within a short drive of our home that have an LPG pump.

 

When we go away in the caravan we use the LPG app to identify the nearest supplier.  We have been to south Wales, Snowdonia, Norfolk and north Somerset this year to date.  Autogas suppliers in North Wales were the furthest away from the caravan site - 20 miles.  However, in all the other locations we have been able to find a supplier within 5 miles.  A few of them were not service stations but suppliers with an Autogas pump.    Our fuel bills would be eye watering were it not for the LPG conversion.

 

In France there were numerous petrol stations supplying LPG.

[Mr Plodd]

Certainly my experience, probably down to the fact there are less and less LPG powered/converted vehicles so the market for LPG is shrinking, thus making the dispensing of LPG from garage forecourts uneconomical. 

 

I would suggest you carry out your own research as to where  you can access LPG near to you. My nearest (Rural Dorset) is over 20 miles distant) 

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by Mr Plodd

[JTQ]

2 hours ago, SteveH2020 said:

I've just joined the forum so sorry if I'm asking a daft question but,,

 

We're taking delivery of our new caravan in February & I really would like to start with the Safefill Gas bottle system.

 

Are people saying that the places (apart from Morrissions) to refill are being phased out?

 

 

 

Shell are as this LINK and locally here BP removed theirs from a station I use about a year back.

[Jay]

1 hour ago, Mr Plodd said:

Certainly my experience, probably down to the fact there are less and less LPG powered/converted vehicles so the market for LPG is shrinking, thus making the dispensing of LPG from garage forecourts uneconomical. 

 

I would suggest you carry out your own research as to where  you can access LPG near to you. My nearest (Rural Dorset) is over 20 miles distant) 

 

Dacia have started to do  a dual fuel option on their cars

[PMW]

4 minutes ago, JanandJay said:

Dacia have started to do  a dual fuel option on their cars

 LPG is still very popular in Eastern Europe where Dacia are manufactured, it's a brave move bringing them to the UK market though where LPG is shrinking rapidly. Several manufacturers have offered LPG dual fuel cars in the past, most noticeably Volvo, Vauxhall and Ford but even at the height of the LPG era there were not sufficient sales for them to continue. I think the Volvo were factory fits, the Vauxhall and Ford cars were pre delivery third party conversions.

 

Even here on the not so rural East/West Midlands border we are now 15 miles plus from our nearest filling stations. Since I started using LPG in the early 1980s no fewer than ten local outlets have closed. I wasn't aware until recently that new legislation was introduced about 18 months ago effecting the resale of LPG, since when our last two local suppliers, a taxi firm and a poultry farm have stopped selling LPG to the public. 

 

Both Shell and BP have withdrawn their support for LPG and Morrison's have said that no new fuel stations being built will offer LPG and no existing stations will be upgraded to offer it. A friend of mine works for Asda who offer LPG in some of their filling stations, their policy is not to have a policy which most likely means LPG will be withdrawn as current equipment meets the end of it's service life. 

 

With the move from fossil fuels to electric propulsion I doubt there will be many LPG outlets other than Calor or Flogas depots in ten years time. Our local flogas depot does not allow the refilling of bottles, even refillable ones.

[Mr Plodd]

I had  Gaslow systems in all of my motorhomes (5) and found it very useful indeed, but over the years I did notice the reduction in places I could refill. 

 

If I was starting out from scratch now I would be thinking long and hard about purchasing any form of refillable system. With the every increasing number of electrical items fitted as standard to caravans, and the almost universal access to EHU on campsites (and many CL’s) the amount of LPG consumed by caravanners is making the  economics of refillable become questionable.

 

It is certainly a lot cheaper to top up a refillable, but how many top ups would it take to recoup the capital outlay when compared to the cost of exchange cylinders? 

 

Two years ago we did a nine week continental trip, we used just over 50% of a single 7kg cylinder BUT we were, when on site, always on EHU and we used a single induction hob (£30) for the majority of cooking rather than the caravans gas cooker.. 

 

So you really do need to think very long and hard before investing in something that may (sadly) become obsolete in a fairly short period of time from now. 

 

.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Mr Plodd

[richardandros]

Well, I'm quite happy with the Safefill cylinder I bought a couple of years ago.  I have a garage selling LPG about 5 miles from home so I just ensure it's full before we go away and there's no way I'm going to get through a full cylinder in 2 weeks or so.  I was asking them recently if there was a danger of them closing the LPG facility and having seen an upturn in Safefill usage amongst some of their commercial as well as private customers, they had no intention of withdrawing it in the forseeable future.

[micktheshed]

On 03/09/2020 at 12:14, Ern said:

That ( 1Kg = 2L approx)  is one of the best snips of information I have read here for a while so thanks.  

1.8L per Kg is far more accurate.

[Rodders53]

35 minutes ago, micktheshed said:

1.8L per Kg is far more accurate.

Not according to Flogas https://www.flogas.co.uk/frequently-asked-questions/gas-conversions

 

2 is close enough  (1000kg = 1969 litres, therefore 1kg = 1.969 litres)

 

and its small k for kilo not big K for Kelvin, too!

[PMW]

2 hours ago, Rodders53 said:

Not according to Flogas https://www.flogas.co.uk/frequently-asked-questions/gas-conversions

 

2 is close enough  (1000kg = 1969 litres, therefore 1kg = 1.969 litres)

 

and its small k for kilo not big K for Kelvin, too!

 

1.85 litres per kg is considered accurate for LPG used as road fuel, which is a mixture of propane and butane which have different values. In order to know the precise value you would need to know the specific percentage mix plus the exact temperature of the liquid. 

 

1.969 is valid for propane, butane is around 1.72

Edited November 10, 2020 by PMW

[JTQ]

"Reportedly", forecourt LPG in the UK is 100% propane, making its density more determinate, leaving only to agree on the temperature we need to Talk about!

Reference

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by JTQ

[Ern]

We were considering buying a Safefill at one time but our caravanning doesn't consume enough gas there days to make it viable.  The discussion here seems to miss one point regarding convenience of refilling - although we dont have a refilling places near our home , I always thought that refilling would probably be carried out when en route to or from a site location. Its not neccesary to have a refilling place near home. 

[Mr Plodd]

And if the refill location is 20 miles in the opposite direction to the one you wish to go in??? 

[Ern]

1 hour ago, Mr Plodd said:

And if the refill location is 20 miles in the opposite direction to the one you wish to go in??? 

The point I was trying to make is that you would find a location with the filling facility by using the app or web site  before leaving home. It could be one near your destination or located en route to or from it. The location doesn't neccesarlily have to be near your home. In the event that the location was 20 miles in the opposite direction to the one you wish to go in, you wouldnt go there. Rather like filling your car fuel tank with diesel eh?

Edited November 10, 2020 by Ern
typo

[JTQ]

Sadly, the reality "Ern" for those of us living in the South and caravanning along the coast of Hampshire, Dorset, Devon and Cornwall, a massive area, that option is not a viable reality, let alone a "convenience". 

There are now so few retailers the numbers having decreased, Couple to that, not all of the few left are viable locations to be taking a towed unit to on the route.

Check these coastal areas out on this Safefill map.

 

Things are evidently different depending where you live and where you travel to caravanning.

How you are going to get a refill,  ought IMO to be a primary consideration if buying into a refillable. I am a fan of the idea, the reality of owning one was not viable when they came to the market, and the case has become weaker.

 

[Alan Stanley]

Having been using Safefill for some years I would sum up my experience as follows 

1.  If you are always on electric and do not use more than a couple of gas bottles a year. Don’t bother

2.  More than that it’s worth considering

3.  If rallying or Off grid then it will pay for itself many times over

4.  Safefill web site is not much cop

5.  In practical terms it’s much better than you initially think

 

we carry Safe Fill and one full calor.  As we can see the Safefill contents we run that until 3/4 has been used.  (In winter off grid say 5 days.  In summer 10 plus days. If on Electric a long long time.  ).  Then if necessary revert to calor.  If a refill point nearby. Refill and off we go again. If not then we are now using calor. ( which we would be anyway without it).  So in worst case we’ve saved about £15 that trip.  In the best in 14 days winter of grid we have saved at least £50.  In real terms we are seldom away for more than 7 days at a time in winter so, with a Safefill point near to home. It is all we use.

 

When the reserve calor calor reaches about 25%. I run that to empty.  Which has only happened twice in the last 6 years.   Once when I forgot to top up the Safefill.  I repeat if always on electric I wouldn’t bother. Although you would still be in profit after a few years. For us it saves us £100s and no guessing as to contents.  It’s lighter and according to my gas engineer cleaner gas.  He hates Calor. On a big rally I went round with him to my fridge service. The flue was spotless. Unlike many of my neighbours who used calor.  Just saying. 

[Mr Plodd]

I don’t think anyone is criticising the concept of a refillable cylinder, its the possible issues surrounding being to able to refill it that can be the problem, especially with the ongoing reduction in refill points. 

 

Have any new LPG forecourt facilities been opened in the last few years?? compared to how many have been withdrawn over the same  period?,

[Ern]

42 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

I don’t think anyone is criticising the concept of a refillable cylinder, its the possible issues surrounding being to able to refill it that can be the problem, especially with the ongoing reduction in refill points. 

 

Have any new LPG forecourt facilities been opened in the last few years?? compared to how many have been withdrawn over the same  period?,

Yes I agree, and also agree with JTQ that some areas are hopelessly short of refilling places. As I said, we looked at it about a year back and I really liked the idea but it just wasnt justifiable on cost because of our low gas consumption. Right now we have 3 x Calorlites and use them for the caravan and in the garden. I fancy the Flogas Gaslite cylinders are siutably light and not bad prices.   

[PMW]

I look at it this way. 

 

A safefill cylinder is certified for ten years, and costs about £170 if we take LPG to be two liters per kg as above then each refill costs around £9.80

 

At one refill per year that equates to 26.80, similar to one gas bottle so if you use more than one gas bottle per year your saving money on a safefill, if not then don't bother. 

 

We use the van around 7 weeks a year, use the gas cooker for most meals but always use electric for heating and hot water and a 7kg butane lasts us well over a year, plus we have a supplier in Devon where we get them for around £20 a bottle, so no way would safefill suit us, but they might well suit others who use more gas. 

[Mr Plodd]

 

No-one, and certainly not me (as a user of Gaslow for many years with a MH) is saying refillable are not a good thing to have, because they are.

 

What  I/we are saying is that for some of us there is nowhere reasonably close at hand we can get the things filled, and it appears such locations are diminishing other than in  very large conurbations , and yes I am sure there are some in rural spots, but not along the South coast. 

 

£150 for a Safefill represents 5-6 Calor refills at £25-30 a time (yes it’s a lot more than filling a Safefill) and, despite using my caravan probably a lot more than the average family does, I get through less than a single 7kg cylinder a year by making best use of paid for EHU on sites. (We don’t “do” rallies) 

 

 So that’s a 5-6 year payback time, and  that’s wholly dependant on having access to an LPG outlet. There are none anywhere near me, and they are decreasing all the time, and that fact alone  means that if I was starting out from new I would need to carefully consider the viability of a refillable cylinder. Economically (when considering just the cost of the gas) it’s an utter no brainer! But  the cost of the gas immaterial if you cannot get it