When is a member not a member?

[Benny65]

Bit of a cryptic title.

I have been watching a couple on youtube who are fulltiming in a MH for a couple of years. The videos are interesting as he has fitted and reviewed lots of things eg solar panels and inverters, ebikes etc.

Anyway, they do use campsites as well as park ups, but are members of the CMC. They stopped enroute at a CMC site as they had been told by other members that they would allow MH'er members to stop and top up the water and empty the cassette waste. 

 

So they did top up the water, but were refused to empty the waste, and were informed by the warden if he/she had know who they were they would have refused the water.

But, also they said you are not a member until you book into the site.  So are we members of the club or not, as if as the warders intimated, its not a club anymore and really a discount card if you want to use the site. And do we think its acceptable that if you are a member, you should be allowed to do this? - I know it could be abused by certain members of the caravan community who shall remain nameless, but this was a £50k MH. I assume if they could have booked in and paid then it would have been all well and good.

There has been a suggestion in the comments to table a question at the AGM regarding this.

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFcfBrwRNNkvyYKXxZ4HH1g

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-Qw5gt8r4RCpDaXTxY46Fg

 

My personal opinion is that you should be allowed to do this, but not take your vehicle onsite, especially as most sites have a late arrivals area outside the main gates

[Legal Eagle]

My personal opinion is to contact the CMC to clarify the situation and if the warden is wrong make a complaint. If the warden is right ask the CMC to clearly publish an explanation for the benefit of all that pay what they believe is an annual membership fee and carry what is described in correspondence as a membership card . It also states upon it that the holder has been a member since a given date. In addition, on the reverse is a phone number for membership enquiries.

 

This sounds more like the case that they rolled straight on to a site and helped themselves without the common courtesy of speaking to the warden first to which the warden took offence. I note that they have been moved on twice by the police (Derbyshire & Gloucestershire) but cannot find reference to any details as to why.

However, we weren't there so do not know what has actually happened.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Legal Eagle

[macafee2]

why would the warden have refused them water?

Why should motor-homers use site facilities for free? I get the impression from the op's post that was the intention

cant see why you need to book a site to become a member, surly once you have paid your subs you are a member.

what does the value of the motor home got to do with anything?

 

macafee2

[joanie]

I think that the CCC allows this or used to for a small fee, but where does it end, a quick shower, maybe.  One site that I use regularly, a woman stays there and has her grandchildren visit her every day, usually 3 or 4 and they are showered and in their pyjamas ready for their mum to pick them up at 5 o'clock. 

[Benny65]

7 minutes ago, macafee2 said:

why would the warden have refused them water? Watch the video - no idea

Why should motor-homers use site facilities for free? I get the impression from the op's post that was the intention  - is it free when you pay a membership fee? 

cant see why you need to book a site to become a member, surly once you have paid your subs you are a member. Thats the point.

what does the value of the motor home got to do with anything? Nothing - it was stated in the video( not the value exactly, but implied value)

 

macafee2

I think they were trying to make a discrimination between travellers and themselves, although there is nothing to stop travellers becoming members. This is my interpretation as well which could be wrong.

 

[SamD]

I agree with macafee2 in that membership is nothing to do with it but access to the site and its facilities is by the payment of the site fees.  I understand that the mohos have a good comms system and if all did this to facilitate their wild camping.....?

[OWOMW]

Normally the water and waste points are inside a barrier, so the "members" must have spoken to reception to gain access ?

[GaryB1969]

I have heard similar before where a "club" member asked to use the laundry facilities of a site that they weren't staying on and were refused.  I think some folks really do believe that once the yearly subs are paid that they do indeed belong to some sort of "club" and have access to use site facilities and other benefits as needed, personally I view my yearly subscription as access to a directory of sites and other services such as insurance, rather than belonging to a club as one may view belonging to a cricket club for example.

[johnsev]

Not only CMC sites but on rural CL,s.Many times we have seen motor homes arrive,fill the water,empty the cassette and bin the rubbish.When confronted they say they are members then stay the night and leave the in the morning without paying ,before the farmer arrives.

[Benny65]

 

7 minutes ago, GaryB1969 said:

I view my yearly subscription as access to a directory of sites and other services such as insurance, rather than belonging to a club as one may view belonging to a cricket club for example.

Being Devils Advocate for debate, when the shutdown was in full force, the Club was promoting itself as Club, rather than a directory of sites.

 

I think there should be a directive, and there may be one already as Gary has stated in his post,  which would makes things crystal clear, and should be posted in the memebrship handbook,although if you did the laundry you would be paying for that service.

 

30 minutes ago, joanie said:

I think that the CCC allows this or used to for a small fee

This could well have been where they got the idea.

 

I have heard that you can ask for a drink of tap water in a pub for free, and also to use the toilets if there is no public ones withing a certain distance, but these maybe old wives tales as well

 

3 minutes ago, johnsev said:

Not only CMC sites but on rural CL,s.Many times we have seen motor homes arrive,fill the water,empty the cassette and bin the rubbish.When confronted they say they are members then stay the night and leave the in the morning without paying ,before the farmer arrives.

Thats typical of certain people in all areas of society, as the unknown individuals who are flytipping around my rural area rather than pay to use the local recycling center. 

 

According to the video the MH'ers asked permission.

[Rodders53]

Water costs money.

Waste disposal (esp. Chemical Toilet Waste) costs money.

 

Why should anyone - member or not - rock up to a site and use the facilities with no charge? 

 

The Club could, if they wanted, have a charge for such use by members and/or others?

 

Repeating second/third/??? hand what was said between Warden and the other party can get a bit mangled "send 3s 4d .... " ?

 

 

[LongTimeCaravaner]

9 minutes ago, Rodders53 said:

 

 

Repeating second/third/??? hand what was said between Warden and the other party can get a bit mangled "send 3s 4d .... " ?

 

 

Think you are showing your age there Rodders. It is many years since I heard that one and I bet there are a lot on here who never have.

 

[daveat92]

My take on this is that by becoming a member, you can, for a fee, book onto their sites and enjoy certain other benefits after paying the appropriate fee.

It doesn't mean that everything is free once you are a member.

 

I think the Site Managers were quite right in refusing free use of site facilities to those who have not paid for them.

[Grandpa Steve]

1 hour ago, Benny65 said:

I think there should be a directive, and there may be one already as Gary has stated in his post,  which would makes things crystal clear, and should be posted in the memebrship handbook,although if you did the laundry you would be paying for that service.

 

It doesn't need anything else as it couldn't be more clearer.

 

1. You pay your annual fee to be a member of the C&MC, this gives you access to book members only club sites, and where none members are permitted reduced nightly fees, and a network of members only Certified Locations.

2. As a member you also get access to a raft of other services which offer a potential saving, such as insurance, ferries,  breakdown recovery etc

3.  To utilise any of the sites made available you are required to a pay a nightly fee made up of various elements, this gives you access to a pitch and any facilities provided as part of that fee, such as electric hookup, fresh water, grey water disposal, toilet emptying points, shower blocks and play areas etc.

 

Only those that want to abuse these benefits of membership will be the ones claiming anything different.

[Jaydug]

3 hours ago, Benny65 said:

My personal opinion is that you should be allowed to do this,

 

I disagree!   Site fees pay for the facilities on the site and are there for those members who are staying.   Recently I stayed on a CC site in Gloucestershire and one morning a private contractor arrived with a sludge-gulper to empty the four cesspits built close to the four disposal points.   The vehicle was on site for a couple of hours or more and no doubt the Club would be left with a hefty bill for the removal and disposal of the waste.     Why should Tom, Dick & Harry be allowed to increase that bill without having stayed at the site?   Likewise with water.   I doubt that the Club is allowed a 'free' water supply.

[daveat92]

3 hours ago, macafee2 said:

why would the warden have refused them water?

Why should motor-homers use site facilities for free? I get the impression from the op's post that was the intention

cant see why you need to book a site to become a member, surly once you have paid your subs you are a member.

what does the value of the motor home got to do with anything?

 

macafee2

If they turned up at my house and wanted to fill their home with water I would have refused. My house has a water meter which measures how much water I use, and am charged accordingly.

All commercial properties, like caravan sites, are on meters, so the use of water is charged according to how much is used.

Water from the public water system is NOT free.

[Ern]

I was going to respond to the OP,  but decided to refrane from anything which might cause offence to the many decent motor caravanners who use this site. 

 

[JTQ]

4 hours ago, Benny65 said:

 

I have heard that you can ask for a drink of tap water in a pub for free, and also to use the toilets if there is no public ones withing a certain distance, but these maybe old wives tales as well

 

There is IMO a massive gulf between asking for a free tumbler of tap water to drink, or to use a toilet, compared to asking for a free top up of the motorhome's water storage tank, circa 0.20 litre vs 70 plus and the dumping of one or more cassette waste; very surprised it was suggested as a parallel supporting argument.

 

Is it not the site fees as opposed to our membership fees that cover these consumables ?

All could have been handled equitably by booking and funding just a nights stop over, or was that the very reason it was not done?

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by JTQ

[joanie]

we see people in newsagents and supermarkets reading the newspapers and the kids eating the grapes and pick n' mix sweets, I've even seen children eating bananas and cold meat when shopping and the item not being paid for. It's all theft . Coming onto a site and  using the facilities  and not paying for it is theft.  Can you imagine me turning up in my caravan and using all the facilities and not paying, or even just emptying my toilet and rubbish and then driving off again.

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by joanie

[Mr Plodd]

Seems to be a fairly widespread opinion (shared by me)  that the actions of the MH’ers were well out of order and, if I was the warden, I would have kicked them off as well. 

 

To those who say it was OK I address the following question.......

 

Should they also have been permitted to use the showers as well as filling up and emptying their waste tank(s) ? As, by your comments, you are intimating that membership gives all sorts of rights.

 

Iw was wrong, pure and simple. 

 

I pay to be a member if Brittany Ferries Club voyage, if I use the same logic as some appear to have I should just be able to turn up and use the ships facilities for free! 

 

 

[macafee2]

6 hours ago, Benny65 said:

I think they were trying to make a discrimination between travellers and themselves, although there is nothing to stop travellers becoming members. This is my interpretation as well which could be wrong.

 

which video? The OP's links just seems to go to two pages with loads of links

 

macafee2

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Mr Plodd said:

Seems to be a fairly widespread opinion (shared by me)  that the actions of the MH’ers were well out of order and, if I was the warden, I would have kicked them off as well. ...

I agree,  but there seems to be an obvious alternative.

 

Why not let motorhomes discharge their waste and fill their tanks for a fee.  Say £5.

 

(I'm a caravanner, but understand from friends that many CLs are not set up for motorhome grey waste - so providing a service where the tanks can be emptied safely seems entirely reasonable).

Edited August 17, 2020 by Will deBeast

[Ern]

8 minutes ago, Will deBeast said:

I agree,  but there seems to be an obvious alternative.

 

Why not let motorhomes discharge their waste and fill their tanks for a fee.  Say £5.

 

(I'm a caravanner, but understand from friends that many CLs are not set up for motorhome grey waste - so providing a service where the tanks can be emptied safely seems entirely reasonable).

Sites are not designed for this and many are not siutable. Security can not be maintained unless there is a locked entrance with warden control. Wardens are not available at all hours for arrivals. Some vehicles will be towing trailers or a frames. There will be more than one vehicle inviolved at a time. Some sites have single track roads with timed arrivals. Some travellers will want to use other facilities whilst there - toilets,showers, laundry. I could go on. 

[klyne]

10 hours ago, joanie said:

I think that the CCC allows this or used to for a small fee, but where does it end, a quick shower, maybe.  One site that I use regularly, a woman stays there and has her grandchildren visit her every day, usually 3 or 4 and they are showered and in their pyjamas ready for their mum to pick them up at 5 o'clock. 

I think that is probably where the confusion has arisen. The C&CC do allow motorhomers to use the services, at a cost, on certain sites but not all. Thus far the CMC has not followed in allowing this service. Access to CMC sites is strictly on payment of a minimum of one night stay which allows you to use all the service that particular site offers.  I am not sure how the person in question managed to access even the water? Being a member of the Club gives him no right to use any of the facilities unless he has paid to stay on site.  There are some practical reasons why the Club would not be encouraged to provide this service. It wouldn't be able to control arrival and departure time if people just turned up to fill with water. Perhaps it wouldn't increase traffic by much it could place extra demand on over stretched facilities. I am also not sure the Club want to encourage "wild camping"

 

David

[moorgate]

The Caravan Club changed its name to include motorhomes but made precious few other changes to provide for them.  Was the re branding just a paper exercise?