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Petrol and diesel sales to be banned by 2032?

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A Government advisory body is calling for the Petrol and Diesel ban to be bought forward to 2032.

 

Also calling for VED and BIK tax to be made more expensive for current internal combustion engined vehicles to move people into PHEV and BEV.

 

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/108960/bring-uk-petrol-and-diesel-car-ban-forward-2032-and-include-motorcycles-say-government?_mout=1&utm_campaign=autoexpress_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&fbclid=IwAR3rcS7ImdfSuSMvv7uw-JCDdb_5Ux76bFadK9n-C6fFEH2gpjLd8LNDUMM

 

To be honest the lockdown and increasing costs of running a big towcar have me thinking whether to buy a static or holiday home.  I've been touring since 1987 and it's getting more and more expensive and more and more difficult to just get up and go. 

Our current van is fine for a few more years but I can't see me buying another.

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We're in the same mind.  We've had our current caravan just over 5 years, and made the decision not to buy a replacement.

 

Similarly, the only reason we have a big car is for towing the caravan.  We'll keep the existing car for now.

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If I am still here. I think by then if I want to continue this pass time, I will have a Hydrogen propelled Campervan or Tug. Electric not going to work. Today the UK has not got the infrastructure to support electric, the Nation grid just copes with major peaks in demand. Something has to improve, if electric is the way!

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The problems of getting the infrastructure up and running to support these vehicles by then may may this like the smart meter farce. Those in the industry who deal with the problem have said it will be difficult or impossible and anyway it will be a ban on the sale of new cars so the old ones will still work.

Given the work being done on this type of vehicle I think they will have cars that will do the job by then, but the price might be the problem.

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9 minutes ago, logiclee said:

 

 .... Also calling for VED and BIK tax to be made more expensive for current internal combustion engined vehicles to move people into PHEV and BEV.....

 

I understand the governments aim but how can it force people to buy something that is unaffordable. The EV market needs time to develop so that there are capable affordable cars available in the secondhand market.  

 

I'd be happy to drive an EV tomorrow but I simply can't afford one. There is no amount of savings to be realised  from running an EV that will actually cover the cost of buying on.e   

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1 minute ago, jetA1 said:

 

I understand the governments aim but how can it force people to buy something that is unaffordable. The EV market needs time to develop so that there are capable affordable cars available in the secondhand market.  

 

I'd be happy to drive an EV tomorrow but I simply can't afford one. There is no amount of savings to be realised  from running an EV that will actually cover the cost of buying on.e   

 

It's the old Carrot and Stick approach.

 

Increase tax on the vehicles you want people to avoid and offer subsidies on those vehicles you want to buy.

 

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5 minutes ago, Will deBeast said:

We're in the same mind.  We've had our current caravan just over 5 years, and made the decision not to buy a replacement.

 

Similarly, the only reason we have a big car is for towing the caravan.  We'll keep the existing car for now.

we are also seeing this van as our last, we've only had it a year and sadly last year we had to end the season in September as I had a couple of horsefly bites that put me out of action and of course this year hasn't started so the van is almost new.   I was going to say that my OH , if he's still around would be too old to drive , but with  the robot type cars that drive themselves, he could get himself one of those  so it would probably be an electric one .   Do you think that solar energy may be the way to go in the future?

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13 minutes ago, logiclee said:

A Government advisory body is calling for the Petrol and Diesel ban to be bought forward to 2032.

 

Also calling for VED and BIK tax to be made more expensive for current internal combustion engined vehicles to move people into PHEV and BEV.

 

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/108960/bring-uk-petrol-and-diesel-car-ban-forward-2032-and-include-motorcycles-say-government?_mout=1&utm_campaign=autoexpress_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&fbclid=IwAR3rcS7ImdfSuSMvv7uw-JCDdb_5Ux76bFadK9n-C6fFEH2gpjLd8LNDUMM

 

To be honest the lockdown and increasing costs of running a big towcar have me thinking whether to buy a static or holiday home.  I've been touring since 1987 and it's getting more and more expensive and more and more difficult to just get up and go. 

Our current van is fine for a few more years but I can't see me buying another.

 

They can all call for what they like, however, until a massive update of electricity supply, infrastructure and production is updated as well as, the again massive investment for a hydrogen system , production, storage, transport and distribution is up and running, transport manufacturers will have to sit on the fence, as always, pondering which way to jump and which system to plough billions in  to R&D and production.

 

Can all this be achieved in 12 years ?

 

Well, after watching, over many years, many government deadlines for many " advisory body " suggestions and projects, over run by years and decades, with the consequential increase in costs, I doubt it very much.

 

I've never had a bet in my life, but wonder what the odds a bookie would give on every thing being in place for the 2032 deadline ?

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4 minutes ago, joanie said:

 

   Do you think that solar energy may be the way to go in the future?

 

As part of the Energy mix yes. But not for charging a car by it's own solar panels. 

 

Tesla are experimenting with PV Solar roofs but only as a means to maintain electronics and connectivity while parked.

 

I  have a 3kW Solar array that covers my entire house roof (14 panels). As I type this It's a mixture of sunshine and cloud and I'm getting 1kW.  On a large EV with a 90kWh battery that's 90 hours of this weather and daylight. I'd estimate a week to charge.

7 minutes ago, Silversurf said:

 

They can all call for what they like, however, until a massive update of electricity supply, infrastructure and production is updated as well as, the again massive investment for a hydrogen system , production, storage, transport and distribution is up and running, transport manufacturers will have to sit on the fence, as always, pondering which way to jump and which system to plough billions in  to R&D and production.

 

Can all this be achieved in 12 years ?

 

Well, after watching, over many years, many government deadlines for many " advisory body " suggestions and projects, over run by years and decades, with the consequential increase in costs, I doubt it very much.

 

I've never had a bet in my life, but wonder what the odds a bookie would give on every thing being in place for the 2032 deadline ?

 

To be honest it's only bringing it forward 3 years.  

 

The UK has an abysmal record on infrastructure times and cost.  We'll have to see whether the Government sees this as a way to buy the economy out of the current mess we are in.

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Lack of infrastructure aside, there is the issue of range. I know it’s improving at a fast pace, but the reality is that nobody is going to want to do 300+ mile business trip, and have to park up for at least 45 mins to refuel. 
Not so bad for tourists, but small vans and commercial travellers would find it unworkable  

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This will be our last caravan, not a year old yet but by 2032 should it happen, (snigger) we will  be looking to a holiday home.

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The move away from ICE vehicles is aspirational and a target date has been set with probably the very best of intentions. However........

 

Once get nearer to that target date the government, of whatever colour, will say “Well we will have to delay this because the hoped for infrastructure and vehicle improvements haven’t improved as well as we hoped they would. Therefore the target date needs to be reassessed to a date when it’s realistic” 

 

That way everyone is kept happy. The fluffy bunny eco mad brigade will stop pestering because “Govt” has taken steps to phase out ICE cars and the ICE manufacturers will be happy because they can keep selling cars. What happens as we hear the target date is of course another matter! 

 

In the meantime the current, and anticipated, infrastructure simply could not cope with vast numbers of EV’s. How do you charge them if you don’t have an off street space ? You cannot trail leads all over the pavements (H&S wouldn’t stand for it) and nor can you dangle them out of apartment block windows. Add to that the not inconsiderable issue of how exactly all the electricity needed to recharge these vehicles is going to be generated on a cold, cloudy and windless winters day when solar panels and wind turbine produce two tenth of three fifths of nothing and everyone wants to heat their house with electricity because gas boilers have been phased out :rolleyes:

 

Quit worrying folks, it ain’t gonna happen for a long time yet regardless of all the noises coming out of government. 

 

The UK produces about 1% of global pollution so if we go totally carbon neutral the difference will be as good as non existent, I just wish the crusty XR mob would get their heads around that inconvenient fact ;)

 

Back to caravans............. If you look at Continental “campsites” a huge number are starting to instal cabins to rent out and greatly reduce the number of touring pitches. That allows them to greatly extend their season and increase income. Out of season they certainly DO offer a very reasonably priced alternative to towing a caravan around when you take into account the amount a caravan costs. There’s the initial cost, insurance, servicing, extra ferry cost, extra fuel cost etc etc. It’s certainly an option I am looking looking at.

 

Andy 

Edited by Mr Plodd
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22 minutes ago, logiclee said:

 

It's the old Carrot and Stick approach.

 

Increase tax on the vehicles you want people to avoid and offer subsidies on those vehicles you want to buy.

 

 

I understand the carrot and stick approach but for me there needs to be a magic wand! My main car is 12 year old diesel Benz estate, at very best its worth  £4k. I don't have a nest egg to draw a lump sum from, I don't have the income to support a monthly payment of £100's for PCP or other finance. So for me the idea of an EV is an unaffordable dream, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this situation.  

 

I know that I could get a very early Leaf for about £6k, but that would have a realistic summer range of less than 70 miles, unfortunately that isn't adequate for our primary car, that's why I have the Benz estate car.  Even if it was adequate there is a cost to change that would take years to recover. And this is nothing to do with towing a van, we've already given that up. 

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12 minutes ago, logiclee said:

 

It's the old Carrot and Stick approach.

 

Increase tax on the vehicles you want people to avoid and offer subsidies on those vehicles you want to buy.

 

 

Even the carrot and stick won't work when, a) even with subsidies the vehicles will be unaffordable for very many folk, b) there isn't a suitable vehicle available for the buyers needs, caravanners as an example amongst many others and c) the problem, time , places  ( at home ) for refuelling electric vehicles, slightly less for hydrogen vehicles, is overcome.

 

Caravans as we know them now may disappear, with either statics or motorhomes being the options.

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2 minutes ago, Silversurf said:

Caravans as we know them now may disappear, with either statics or motorhomes being the options.

Hi, apart from the large investment needed to purchase a MH, how does a MH with an ICE improve on a car with an ICE?

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2 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

The move away from ICE vehicles is aspirational and a target date has been set with probably the very best of intentions. However........

 

Once get nearer to that target date the government, of whatever colour, will say “Well we will have to delay this because the hoped for infrastructure and vehicle improvements haven’t improved as well as we hoped they would. Therefore the target date needs to be reassessed to a date when it’s realistic” 

 

That way everyone is kept happy. The fluffy bunny eco mad brigade will stop pestering because “Govt” has taken steps to phase out ICE cars and the ICE manufacturers will be happy because they can keep selling cars. What happens as we hear the target date is of course another matter! 

 

In the meantime the current, and anticipated, infrastructure simply could not cope with vast numbers of EV’s. How do you charge them if you don’t have an off street space ? You cannot trail leads all over the pavements (H&S wouldn’t stand for it) and nor can you dangle them out of apartment block windows. Add to that the not inconsiderable issue of how exactly all the electricity needed to recharge these vehicles is going to be generated on a cold, cloudy and windless winters day when solar panels and wind turbine produce two tenth of three fifths of nothing and everyone wants to heat their house with electricity because gas boilers have been phased out :rolleyes:

 

Quit worrying folks, it ain’t gonna happen for a long time yet regardless of all the noises coming out of government. 

 

The UK produces about 1% of global pollution so if we go totally carbon neutral the difference will be as good as non existent, I just wish the crusty XR mob would get their heads around that inconvenient fact ;)

 

Andy 

 

 

Hi Andy.

 

Maybe.

 

It depends how they want to play it and what they do with the market.

 

The energy market in the UK has been transformed and that change was all done to timescale.

 

That was done by legislation, taxation and subsidies.  

 

They only have to mandate no new ICE cars to be sold in the UK by 2032 and manufacturers will have to comply.

6 minutes ago, jetA1 said:

 

I understand the carrot and stick approach but for me there needs to be a magic wand! My main car is 12 year old diesel Benz estate, at very best its worth  £4k. I don't have a nest egg to draw a lump sum from, I don't have the income to support a monthly payment of £100's for PCP or other finance. So for me the idea of an EV is an unaffordable dream, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this situation.  

 

I know that I could get a very early Leaf for about £6k, but that would have a realistic summer range of less than 70 miles, unfortunately that isn't adequate for our primary car, that's why I have the Benz estate car.  Even if it was adequate there is a cost to change that would take years to recover. And this is nothing to do with towing a van, we've already given that up. 

 

2032 or 2035 is for new cars, you will still have the option to buy used ICE.

 

But the choice of ICE cars will diminish and those with more polluting engines will be taxed more.

 

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1 minute ago, logiclee said:

 

 

Hi Andy.

 

Maybe.

 

It depends how they want to play it and what they do with the market.

 

The energy market in the UK has been transformed and that change was all done to timescale.

 

That was done by legislation, taxation and subsidies.  

 

They only have to mandate no new ICE cars to be sold in the UK by 2032 and manufacturers will have to comply.

 

But any legislation has to take into account what is actually available. It’s all very well  saying we all have to use EV’s but if there are no vehicles available to do the job (EV artic?) And no way of providing the amount of charging points or the amount of electricity required all the legislation in the world will count for nought! 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

But any legislation has to take into account what is actually available. It’s all very well  saying we all have to use EV’s but if there are no vehicles available to do the job (EV artic?) And no way of providing the amount of charging points or the amount of electricity required all the legislation in the world will count for nought! 

 

 

 

Commercials over 3.5T are not covered under this legislation.

 

On our journey to ditch coal generation which has used the Carbon Trading Mechanism the big change will have been completed in under ten years. It's been at a massive cost to the consumer and the treasury. Leaving the UK with some of the highest energy bills in the world.

But these costs have been somewhat hidden and the blame shifted somewhat.

 

12 years to get the UK's EV charging infrastructure is tight but anything is possible if the investment is there.

 

And lets remember if the ban on new ICE cars start in 2032 or 2035 all the existing ICE cars will still be in use for many years,

 

For me that's not the biggest issue.  The calls for VED and BIK to be changed will mean heavy towcars will be hit hard and soon. 

 

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I wonder how joe blogs would charge an EV living on a 3rd floor or in a terraced house.

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15 minutes ago, Allan Guest said:

Hi, apart from the large investment needed to purchase a MH, how does a MH with an ICE improve on a car with an ICE?

 

I should have said when ICE's are no more and everything is electric, bearing in mind that a successful hydrogen powered car could be either ICE or Fuel cell ( electric ) powered.

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8 minutes ago, logiclee said:

  The calls for VED and BIK to be changed will mean heavy towcars will be hit hard and soon. 

 

 

I have no doubt at all that the first few years VED for any new diesel cars that are registered will be raised very substantially in the near future to try and reduce their popularity and get us back to petrol. The same will probably then happen to petrol cars to shift us to EV’s.

 

In the meantime the value of used, decent diesel tow cars, will quite possibly increase once new ones become expensive to register. 

 

The number of people wanting to tow caravans is so small it will be totally ignored by the politicians in their decision making anyway:angry:

 

Andy

Edited by Mr Plodd
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3 minutes ago, hinchy said:

I wonder how joe blogs would charge an EV living on a 3rd floor or in a terraced house.

 

To be honest everyone having a home charger is a non starter and if you are in your forever home, you have a drive and are thinking of EV in the future you should get one installed now as restrictions will come eventually.

 

The future is superfast chargers, 350kW and above that can give 150miles of range in 10 minutes.

 

The challenge is to get enough superfast chargers and vehicles that can use them.

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11 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

The number of people wanting to tow caravans is so small it will be totally ignored by the politicians in their decision making anyway

Possibly, but when you look at the figures that the two main clubs quote as “contributions to local economies” there maybe some room for any government to take a good look

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2 minutes ago, logiclee said:

 

Commercials over 3.5T are not covered under this legislation.

 

On our journey to ditch coal generation which has used the Carbon Trading Mechanism the big change will have been completed in under ten years. It's been at a massive cost to the consumer and the treasury. Leaving the UK with some of the highest energy bills in the world.

But these costs have been somewhat hidden and the blame shifted somewhat.

 

12 years to get the UK's EV charging infrastructure is tight but anything is possible if the investment is there.

 

And lets remember if the ban on new ICE cars start in 2032 or 2035 all the existing ICE cars will still be in use for many years,

 

For me that's not the biggest issue.  The calls for VED and BIK to be changed will mean heavy towcars will be hit hard and soon. 

 

 

My neighbour and I who is a biochemist for a large fuel company spoke about the time when cars etc will no longer use petrol and derv and the  consequences of the reduced demand, with the possibility of the demand being reduced further as commercial vehicles are brought into the scheme.

 

One interesting point she made and not often heard is that the cost of many things that use the products of  refining crude oil, oils, paints, plastics, pharmaceuticals, including petrol,  derv and a bewildering number of things, is based on the volume output of production, remembering that the production of just say one product, a particular oil,  from a barrel of crude will leave a quantity of residue that can't be used to produce any more of that product, where as in the present state of production virtually all the barrel will be used up, and economically, as each fraction is used, remove part of that production and the revenue from it, petrol and derv, the cost of the rest of the items will increase.

 

Not only that but the need to reduce output will have an effect at plant replacement time where decisions will have to be made made to either run the present plant at low capacity, less economical or build smaller plant that can be run at maximum capacity, more economical.

 

It's not as simple as some Green folk want us to believe.

 

 

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No new internal combustion engine vehicles after 2032, not even plugin hybrids to help the transition and no gas boilers in new homes within next few years.

These are indeed aspirations and fashionable green headline grabbers. Even Talk now of increasing VAT on heating gas for everyone - including those older less well insulated homes. Methane is a hydrocarbon but it is THE lowest carbon hydrocarbon fuel.

I understand the idea is to move away from gas heating to electricity in the form of heat pumps which (ignoring their limitations) would lead to a huge increase in demand for electricity nationwide.

Couple this extra demand with the extra demand to charge electric vehicles and we have the perfect storm to overload the National Grid.

 

Wind farms and the like often generate surplus unusable energy on windy days that aren't very cold and this could be used to electrolyse water to produce Hydrogen.

However, rather than rushing to develop hydrogen fuel celled vehicles (with a whole new infrastructure needed and another carbon impact), why oh why don't they plan to use the hydrogen to mix with the country's natural gas supply. Gas boilers can be easily adapted to run on a hydrogen/methane mix and the whole distribution infrastructure is in place. So less CO2 from your boiler, so no need to build and install new heating systems (with yet another carbon impact) to heat your home with electricity. This would leave more electricity to cope with the huge likely demand for electric vehicle charging.

 

I would be more willing to support current green thinking if it actually made sense to me. I hope someone can explain what I am not seeing.

 

 

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