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Germany outlaws speed camera alerts from 27th April 2020


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From  27 April 2020 Germany outlaws speed camera alerts.

 

The new Road Traffic Regulation in Germany prohibits the use of devices that alert users to the locations of fixed and mobile speed camera locations.

It is recommended that you disable speed camera alerts before and while driving in Germany however you can reactivate these alerts for travel outside Germany.

More information from TomTom

 

Related information from TomTom (check for details if you use an alternative sat nav system):-

FRANCE - TomTom’s service in France is certified to be 100% legal. Instead of warning for exact locations of cameras, TomTom warns for Danger Zones around any potential danger, including cameras.

TURKEY, SWITZERLAND, CYPRUS, MACEDONIA - In these countries all Speed Camera warning systems are illegal. Because of this, TomTom does not offer the Speed Camera service in these countries, and users driving in these countries do not need to manually change the settings of their device.

Fourwinds Hurricane 31D Motorhome. Also MGTF135 1. 8i Roadster (fun) & Volvo V70 3.2Ltr LPG (everyday car)
Unless otherwise stated, my posts will be my personal thoughts and have the same standing as any other member of Caravan and Motorhome Talk.

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I wonder if TomTom would do the same fro Germany as they have done for France.  How would the police prove that you are using a speed camera alert on your device as the device contains personal data therefore they would need a warranty to inspect the device?  I guess rather than argue with a German police officer the best is to make sure that you are within the speed limit.  :D

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3 minutes ago, Guzzilazz said:

Both Garmin and TomTom have emailed out about this, saying to disable safety cameras if entering Germany.  

 

I have both makes of Sat Nav, not had any emails (yet) 

 

It is exceedingly difficult to see how the German authorities could prove any motorist was using such a facility on their sat Nav. “No officer, the sat Nav is switched off, look” or “Yes the sat Nav is built into the car but I wasn’t using it” etc 

 

If you ARE using a sat Nav can you be compelled, at the roadside, to demonstrate that the camera alert system is disabled? Knowing their concerns over personal data I cannot see that being allowed. 

 

Legislation that has has been brought in without enough thought being applied to the difficulty of its effective application. 

 

Whats next? Outlawing speed limiters as fitted to many cars, or lane departure assist etc? 

 

Andy

Experience is something you acquire after you have an urgent need for it.

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21 hours ago, Durbanite said:

I wonder if TomTom would do the same fro Germany as they have done for France.  How would the police prove that you are using a speed camera alert on your device as the device contains personal data therefore they would need a warranty to inspect the device?  I guess rather than argue with a German police officer the best is to make sure that you are within the speed limit.  :D

The police do not need a warrant in the UK to inspect, seize and/or secure evidence or items that may contain it in spontaneous situations such as a roadside stop. The power is granted under Sec 19 PACE 1984. Section 117 PACE gives the power to use reasonable force in order to secure and/or seize it. Section 1 PACE gives the power to search persons and vehicles which are reasonably suspected to be carrying prohibited (or stolen) articles.

Under data protection legislation there is a full exemption for the purposes of law enforcement. Remember, they have full access to PNC & PND to check personal data held on you and your car without a warrant or, in fact, even speaking to you.

 

I cannot speak for enforcement powers in Germany but imagine it to be similar within the bounds of their legislative and judicial systems.

Edited by Legal Eagle
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LE

 

Isnt the offence in Germany of USING the warning system on the sat Nav? If so it’s difficult to see how such “use” can be proven. It’s not an offence to have the facility available. 

 

A car has the facility to exceed speed limits but a prosecution can only be undertaken when that facility is used! Same as having a mobile phone in your jacket pocket not being hands free, it’s only an offence if it’s used whilst driving! 

 

Andy

Edited by Mr Plodd

Experience is something you acquire after you have an urgent need for it.

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11 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

LE

 

Isnt the offence in Germany of USING the warning system on the sat Nav? If so it’s difficult to see how such “use” can be proven. It’s not an offence to have the facility available. 

 

A car has tge facility to exceed speed limits but a prosecution can only be undertaken when that facility is used! 

 

Andy

Come on Andy, you know as well as I do how the investigative process works. Firstly, the exact wording of the legislation and points to prove must be known. We don't know those details so cannot comment, and making assumptions is dangerous. Is the offence just using it or does it include the facility being present on the device? We only have Gordon's wording, not Germany's!

Secondly, knowing that detail then facilitates the path of the investigation - what you see, what you know, what you hear (questions/answers) and what you find.

Edited by Legal Eagle
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4 minutes ago, Legal Eagle said:

Come on Andy, you know as well as I do how the investigative process works. Firstly, the exact wording of the legislation and points to prove must be known. We don't know those details so cannot comment, and making assumptions is dangerous.

Secondly, knowing that detail then facilitates the path of the investigation - what you see, what you know, what you hear (questions/answers) and what you find.

 

I agree with you 100%. But somewhere in the legislation there will be something that has to be “ proved” and, to my mind, it is very difficult to see how “use” can be proven “beyond all reasonable doubt” or whatever the the standard of proof is in Germany. 

Clearly there is no offence of having the facility installed on a Sat Nav (Tomtoms/Garmins advice is to disable it in Germany) So how can it proven that firstly it was actually switched on, and secondly that it was being “used”?

 

Dont think I would want to be the one standing up in court (opposite you ;)) trying to prove that a motorist was actually “using” speed camera alert system on a sat Nav rather than just the Navigation part. I know what questions I would be asking! 

 

The law in Germany is “The Law” and I am not suggesting anyone should break it, but I am questioning just how that particular one could be enforced. 

 

Andy

Experience is something you acquire after you have an urgent need for it.

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19 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

I agree with you 100%. But somewhere in the legislation there will be something that has to be “ proved” and, to my mind, it is very difficult to see how “use” can be proven “beyond all reasonable doubt” or whatever the the standard of proof is in Germany. 

Clearly there is no offence of having the facility installed on a Sat Nav (Tomtoms/Garmins advice is to disable it in Germany) So how can it proven that firstly it was actually switched on, and secondly that it was being “used”?

 

Dont think I would want to be the one standing up in court (opposite you ;)) trying to prove that a motorist was actually “using” speed camera alert system on a sat Nav rather than just the Navigation part. I know what questions I would be asking! 

 

The law in Germany is “The Law” and I am not suggesting anyone should break it, but I am questioning just how that particular one could be enforced. 

 

Andy

I have never had to study German law so cannot recall if their standard of proof for criminal law is the same as ours  "beyond a reasonable doubt". Perhaps the legislation does not require it to be switched on, only enabled or there are two possible offences. Who has the burden of proof?, the prosecution to proof it was switched on or enabled or the defence to prove, at the roadside, that it wasn't.

Maybe Lutz will come along and educate us all!

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Yes, let's all find a way around this so that we can continue to speed and possibly kill ourselves and others in between where the cameras are.

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5 minutes ago, daveat92 said:

Yes, let's all find a way around this so that we can continue to speed and possibly kill ourselves and others in between where the cameras are.

Since this is German law I don't think summising on here will have any effect on Germany's road collision statistics, particularly where they have no speed limit on autobahns! The debate was about how evidence could be gathered, not how to get around it.

Edited by Legal Eagle
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5 minutes ago, daveat92 said:

Yes, let's all find a way around this so that we can continue to speed and possibly kill ourselves and others in between where the cameras are.

Did anybody mention finding ways to ‘continue to speed‘?  All I have read concerns the potential legal consequences of actually having the capability to detect speed cameras.

 

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Loopholes already being found. I've just read this comment on autoevolution.com:-

 

The new regulations, however, also cover smartphones and speed camera apps, as they state the device which is used for traffic monitoring system alerts doesn’t have to be specifically built for this purpose, but for “other uses” as well. In other words, pretty much any app that can warn of a speed camera is now forbidden, no matter if it runs on a phone, a tablet, or a GPS navigation system.

But as German site iTopNews noticed, the updated traffic laws only refers to someone who drives a vehicle. So in theory, a passenger of the car can still use a speed camera app like Waze just fine. The Google-owned traffic navigation app comes with both visual and audio alerts on a series of reports, including speed cameras, so technically, you can still use it without having the phone on the car’s dashboard.

 

John. 

 

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26 minutes ago, daveat92 said:

Yes, let's all find a way around this so that we can continue to speed and possibly kill ourselves and others in between where the cameras are.

 

In Germany when you pass the 130K sign with a diagonal line through it you can drive at any "safe" speed you choose😀

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All depends on who’s definition of “safe” you use of course! 

 

The one thing that is so noticeably different between the UK an Continent is lane discipline. I get really cheesed with the UK’s CLODS

 

Centre

Lane

Only

Drivers

 

We have all seen them.

 

Andy

Experience is something you acquire after you have an urgent need for it.

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4 hours ago, Legal Eagle said:

 We only have Gordon's wording, not Germany's!

Just for the record, what I posted is a quotation from an email I received from TomTom on Friday 22nd May 2020 - presumably that comes with some authority.

Gordon.

Fourwinds Hurricane 31D Motorhome. Also MGTF135 1. 8i Roadster (fun) & Volvo V70 3.2Ltr LPG (everyday car)
Unless otherwise stated, my posts will be my personal thoughts and have the same standing as any other member of Caravan and Motorhome Talk.

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The actual wording of the law is:

 

Wer ein Fahrzeug führt, darf ein technisches Gerät nicht betreiben oder betriebsbereit mitführen, das dafür bestimmt ist, Verkehrsüberwachungsmaßnahmen anzuzeigen oder zu stören. Das gilt insbesondere für Geräte zur Störung oder Anzeige von Geschwindigkeitsmessungen (Radarwarn- oder Laserstörgeräte). Bei anderen technischen Geräten, die neben anderen Nutzungszwecken auch zur Anzeige oder Störung von Verkehrsüberwachungsmaßnahmen verwendet werden können, dürfen die entsprechenden Gerätefunktionen nicht verwendet werden.

 

Translated, this means that the driver must not use or carry a technical device specifically capable of displaying or interfering traffic surveillance measures, in particular speed measuring equipment. In the case of other technical devices that can also be used to display or interfere traffic surveillance measures, such functions must be disabled.

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3 hours ago, Gordon said:

Just for the record, what I posted is a quotation from an email I received from TomTom on Friday 22nd May 2020 - presumably that comes with some authority.

Gordon.

I understand that. What I meant was, we didn't have the official, and crucial, wording of the actual law, only the wording of your source. 😉

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1 hour ago, Mr Plodd said:

All depends on who’s definition of “safe” you use of course! 

 

The one thing that is so noticeably different between the UK an Continent is lane discipline. I get really cheesed with the UK’s CLODS

 

Centre

Lane

Only

Drivers

 

We have all seen them.

 

Andy

 

Centre Lane Owner-Drivers Society, and then there's the British Offside Lane Owners Club but I'll leave that to your imagination, I don't want to get banned! :D

 

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9 hours ago, Lutz said:

The actual wording of the law is:

 

Wer ein Fahrzeug führt, darf ein technisches Gerät nicht betreiben oder betriebsbereit mitführen, das dafür bestimmt ist, Verkehrsüberwachungsmaßnahmen anzuzeigen oder zu stören. Das gilt insbesondere für Geräte zur Störung oder Anzeige von Geschwindigkeitsmessungen (Radarwarn- oder Laserstörgeräte). Bei anderen technischen Geräten, die neben anderen Nutzungszwecken auch zur Anzeige oder Störung von Verkehrsüberwachungsmaßnahmen verwendet werden können, dürfen die entsprechenden Gerätefunktionen nicht verwendet werden.

 

Translated, this means that the driver must not use or carry a technical device specifically capable of displaying or interfering traffic surveillance measures, in particular speed measuring equipment. In the case of other technical devices that can also be used to display or interfere traffic surveillance measures, such functions must be disabled.

Lutz

 

The translation suggests speed measuring devices. Now surely all sat navs have the capability to measure how fast you are going. I appreciate that it also mentions the likes of radar detection but I thought such things were outlawed years ago. Also many new cars and motorhomes have built in satellite navigation systems which, in most case, the owner of the vehicle can't change. Are we perhaps missing some subtleties here?

 

David

David - Milton Keynes

Bailey Alliance 66-2 Motorhome for holidays and a Kia Venga for home.

 

Caravan Travels

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1 hour ago, klyne said:

Lutz

 

The translation suggests speed measuring devices. Now surely all sat navs have the capability to measure how fast you are going. I appreciate that it also mentions the likes of radar detection but I thought such things were outlawed years ago. Also many new cars and motorhomes have built in satellite navigation systems which, in most case, the owner of the vehicle can't change. Are we perhaps missing some subtleties here?

 

David

I think you have misunderstood what it says. It isn't a ban on speed measuring devices, it's a ban on technical devices that are capable of displaying or interfering with speed measuring equipment. It appears a word was missed out by Lutz. The legislation obviously applies to devices with the single specific purpose of interfering with or displaying the location of traffic enforcement equipment and devices, such as phones and sat navs,  that  have a secondary function of showing the location. The former is prohibited and the latter must be disabled.

 

Translated, this means that the driver must not use or carry a technical device specifically capable of displaying or interfering with traffic surveillance measures, in particular speed measuring equipment. In the case of other technical devices that can also be used to display or interfere traffic surveillance measures, such functions must be disabled.

Edited by Legal Eagle
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22 hours ago, Legal Eagle said:

I think you have misunderstood what it says. It isn't a ban on speed measuring devices, it's a ban on technical devices that are capable of displaying or interfering with speed measuring equipment. It appears a word was missed out by Lutz. The legislation obviously applies to devices with the single specific purpose of interfering with or displaying the location of traffic enforcement equipment and devices, such as phones and sat navs,  that  have a secondary function of showing the location. The former is prohibited and the latter must be disabled.

 

Translated, this means that the driver must not use or carry a technical device specifically capable of displaying or interfering with traffic surveillance measures, in particular speed measuring equipment. In the case of other technical devices that can also be used to display or interfere traffic surveillance measures, such functions must be disabled.

 

You have interpreted my reply correctly.

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