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Irishboy

Awning/Roof rail connection

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Hi.

what do I do if I take off the awning/roof rail on a bailey Pageant 2006 and the timber that I have to rescuew the rail to is damp/rotten?.

 

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5 minutes ago, Irishboy said:

Hi.

what do I do if I take off the awning/roof rail on a bailey Pageant 2006 and the timber that I have to rescuew the rail to is damp/rotten?.

 

 Sadly your options are limited:-

1. Give up and replace the van.

2. Pay a fortune to get it fixed.

3. Cobble it up to give you another season or two, avoiding using an awning.

4. Attempt a major repair yourself.

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What does a major repair entail?...

I presume the wall of an 2006 Bailey pageant are structured in timber ?. 

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29 minutes ago, Irishboy said:

What does a major repair entail?...

I presume the wall of an 2006 Bailey pageant are structured in timber ?. 

The wall is a bonded sandwich with an aluminium outer skin, a foam core and a plywood or hardboard inner skin, with wood around the edges to provide something to screw into.

To repair this properly would require removal of the wallboard from the inside over all the affected area, replacement of all the rotten timber, with new wood and rebuilding. Can be done, but very time consuming.

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thanks stevan . So from inside out , there is plywood fixed to wood framing with foam in between the timber frames and aluminium. The aluminium is glued to the foam and wooden frame also?.

 I bought a caravan recently and got stung...I will have to try fix it myself .

see wet area below.

 

A735AAD6-D4AB-4A6D-B04F-59B676EE71F2.jpeg

9E6E3AFA-B0EC-408B-AAAC-99B2A025279A.jpeg

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11 hours ago, Irishboy said:

thanks stevan . So from inside out , there is plywood fixed to wood framing with foam in between the timber frames and aluminium. The aluminium is glued to the foam and wooden frame also?.

 I bought a caravan recently and got stung...I will have to try fix it myself .

 

Yes, that's about it.

You need to start with a damp meter to find out just how far the damage has spread, and find out where the leaks are.

The structural strength of the van comes from the bonded sandwich with the wood only being there to reinforce the corners and mounting points and to provide something for the screws to hold into.

Remember that once you start dismantling there is no going back and you will not know the true extent of the damage until you are well past the point of no return.

Sorry I cannot be more optimistic!

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I have been where you are now, and in fact I am in that position again now, though not to such an extent. With (i presume) no warranty or comeback against the vendor and assuming you are not going to give up on the van you are really left with only one option, attempt the repair yourself. The encouraging words I can give is that the main cost is going to be your time, the materials you need are not drastically expensive. The most likely cause is the failure of the seal between the awning rail and the caravan due to over tensioning the awning poles. Everyone likes their awning to look perfect and ripple free and so tension the awning poles to within an inch of their lives, but all that tension is pulling the awning rail away from the van causing the seal to fail

 

The first thing you need to do is remove the awning rail, if not already done. Then working inside the caravan remove any furniture from the effected area, lockers, seat frames etc. Be careful when you do this as their strength is much reduced when they are not "in situ" and you will want to put them back, so make sure not to damage them. You are also going to have to remove any windows in the effected area, again be careful not to damage them as they are very expensive to replace. Remove the window seal by carefully pulling away the insert then removing the staples which hold the rubber seal in place. You can choose to reuse or replace the seal depending on your budget. A new seal comes with mastic ready attached and is the best option, it will cost around 30.00

 

Remove any lockers or inlets which go through the effected area of the wall (I don't know the van well but can't think there are any). Keep everything you have removed in a safe location. 

 

Now start peeling away the wall board. You don't want to disturb the polystyrene insulation if you can avoid it so a sharp flexible knife slid behind the board between it and the polystyrene is the best way, to break the bond and leave the insulation bonded to the outer skin. Again, slow and careful. Don't expect to pull it away in huge chunks, it is likely you will have to knife a bit free then break it away, then on to the next bit. Take your time as the more you rush the more you damage the insulation. 

 

Once the wallboard is removed you will see the damage to the frame, this is what you must replace. I used 18mm exterior wbp plywood. Use a large flat blade screwdriver and start digging away gently at the worst effected area and work outwards from there. Again, take care, don't go digging at the outer skin as it punctures very easily, almost like paper. The worst of the wood will simply fall away, it will resemble, and smell like well rotted compost. You must get rid of all of that until you reach something that the screwdriver cannot crumble away. This should be a different colour, borwn now not black. At that point stop. Coat everything you have exposed but not removed with Ronseal High performance wet rot wood hardener. This will be absorbed into the damp timber and combine with the moisture to set hard and restore the woods strentgh.

 

It will look horrendous, but take heart, you have done all the damage, now you can start rebuilding. 

 

Mark out all of the frame sections you need to replace on your plywood sheet. If possible make them in one piece, or at least the fewer joints the better, It will add strength. You need to bond these to the outer shell using a one part moisture curing polyurethane glue such as Bond It Beast or Gorilla Brown. Beware, this stuff foams and expands slightly as it cures and goes very runny before setting rock hard, so it will run. Mask fully the outside of the van anywhere the glue is likely to get to, infact mask it all if you can. I had some expand out of the window frame and onto the outer shell and it was a pig to get off. Clamp it as much as possible using g clamps or similar through the window opening, and lengths of timber across the van to put pressure on the new frame. Wherever you put these lengths of wood make sure to cushion them, you don't want to damage the opposite wall by shoving a plank through it. The more contact you can get between the frame and the shell the better. 

 

Once that is done you can replace the wallboard. These people can often help matching wallboard patterns

 

https://www.olearymotorhomes.co.uk

 

They may also be able to supply new window seals etc. Add the wallboard in a single piece covering window openings etc which you cut out later, with a router and laminate cutter bit if you have one, or very sharp craft knife and great care if you don't. The wall board is bonded to the frame and the insulation with the same pu adhesive. 

 

Once you have cut the window opening refit the seal, or use a new one. Make sure all traces of old sealant are removed. Rub with isopropyl alcohol to make sure. If you reuse the seal you need to apply new mastic between the outer lip and the van shell, the stuff on a roll is the best. Work out the width you need and apply it to the edge of the opening all the way round leaving the top paper on then work it onto the shell with a wall paper seem roller to ensure it is well stuck. If suing a new seal the mastic should be applied inside the deal already. Fit the seal carefully into the opening, I will link a video with hints on how to do this. 

 

Use the same mastic on a roll and roller technique to reattach the awning rail. Use new stainless steel screws. this sound stupid but you need to make a small hole in the mastic to put the screw through, then a dab of mastic on the screw to seal that hole. If you don't the screwing action as you drive the screw home deforms the mastic strip behind the awning rail and could leave voids which will allow water in. 

 

Once you have reattached the awning rail replace the infill strip covering the screws with new, available from most good caravan suppliers. 

 

Finally replace the furniture, and enjoy your caravan. 

 

No repair will be perfect. Whilst I wouldn't say don't use an awning be careful not to over tension the roof poles. I would also advocate getting a cover to keep the worst of the rain off whilst not in use. About 100-150 but it will seriously help expend the life of your van,  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Fantastic post PMW.

 

It's all a matter of perspective Irishboy.

Ok really disappointing for you but will be a therapeutic distraction from all the stuff going on around us.

And when you've done it you will have a caravan of which to be proud and enjoy some great hols with your family.

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On 21/03/2020 at 13:09, limecc said:

Fantastic post PMW.

 

It's all a matter of perspective Irishboy.

Ok really disappointing for you but will be a therapeutic distraction from all the stuff going on around us.

And when you've done it you will have a caravan of which to be proud and enjoy some great hols with your family.

 

Thanks everyone. Yes I am taking the positives now. Doesn’t seem overly important now. Plus the guy I bought is off gave me 1000 euro back .....

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On 18/03/2020 at 12:16, PMW said:

I have been where you are now, and in fact I am in that position again now, though not to such an extent. With (i presume) no warranty or comeback against the vendor and assuming you are not going to give up on the van you are really left with only one option, attempt the repair yourself. The encouraging words I can give is that the main cost is going to be your time, the materials you need are not drastically expensive. The most likely cause is the failure of the seal between the awning rail and the caravan due to over tensioning the awning poles. Everyone likes their awning to look perfect and ripple free and so tension the awning poles to within an inch of their lives, but all that tension is pulling the awning rail away from the van causing the seal to fail

 

The first thing you need to do is remove the awning rail, if not already done. Then working inside the caravan remove any furniture from the effected area, lockers, seat frames etc. Be careful when you do this as their strength is much reduced when they are not "in situ" and you will want to put them back, so make sure not to damage them. You are also going to have to remove any windows in the effected area, again be careful not to damage them as they are very expensive to replace. Remove the window seal by carefully pulling away the insert then removing the staples which hold the rubber seal in place. You can choose to reuse or replace the seal depending on your budget. A new seal comes with mastic ready attached and is the best option, it will cost around 30.00

 

Remove any lockers or inlets which go through the effected area of the wall (I don't know the van well but can't think there are any). Keep everything you have removed in a safe location. 

 

Now start peeling away the wall board. You don't want to disturb the polystyrene insulation if you can avoid it so a sharp flexible knife slid behind the board between it and the polystyrene is the best way, to break the bond and leave the insulation bonded to the outer skin. Again, slow and careful. Don't expect to pull it away in huge chunks, it is likely you will have to knife a bit free then break it away, then on to the next bit. Take your time as the more you rush the more you damage the insulation. 

 

Once the wallboard is removed you will see the damage to the frame, this is what you must replace. I used 18mm exterior wbp plywood. Use a large flat blade screwdriver and start digging away gently at the worst effected area and work outwards from there. Again, take care, don't go digging at the outer skin as it punctures very easily, almost like paper. The worst of the wood will simply fall away, it will resemble, and smell like well rotted compost. You must get rid of all of that until you reach something that the screwdriver cannot crumble away. This should be a different colour, borwn now not black. At that point stop. Coat everything you have exposed but not removed with Ronseal High performance wet rot wood hardener. This will be absorbed into the damp timber and combine with the moisture to set hard and restore the woods strentgh.

 

It will look horrendous, but take heart, you have done all the damage, now you can start rebuilding. 

 

Mark out all of the frame sections you need to replace on your plywood sheet. If possible make them in one piece, or at least the fewer joints the better, It will add strength. You need to bond these to the outer shell using a one part moisture curing polyurethane glue such as Bond It Beast or Gorilla Brown. Beware, this stuff foams and expands slightly as it cures and goes very runny before setting rock hard, so it will run. Mask fully the outside of the van anywhere the glue is likely to get to, infact mask it all if you can. I had some expand out of the window frame and onto the outer shell and it was a pig to get off. Clamp it as much as possible using g clamps or similar through the window opening, and lengths of timber across the van to put pressure on the new frame. Wherever you put these lengths of wood make sure to cushion them, you don't want to damage the opposite wall by shoving a plank through it. The more contact you can get between the frame and the shell the better. 

 

Once that is done you can replace the wallboard. These people can often help matching wallboard patterns

 

https://www.olearymotorhomes.co.uk

 

They may also be able to supply new window seals etc. Add the wallboard in a single piece covering window openings etc which you cut out later, with a router and laminate cutter bit if you have one, or very sharp craft knife and great care if you don't. The wall board is bonded to the frame and the insulation with the same pu adhesive. 

 

Once you have cut the window opening refit the seal, or use a new one. Make sure all traces of old sealant are removed. Rub with isopropyl alcohol to make sure. If you reuse the seal you need to apply new mastic between the outer lip and the van shell, the stuff on a roll is the best. Work out the width you need and apply it to the edge of the opening all the way round leaving the top paper on then work it onto the shell with a wall paper seem roller to ensure it is well stuck. If suing a new seal the mastic should be applied inside the deal already. Fit the seal carefully into the opening, I will link a video with hints on how to do this. 

 

Use the same mastic on a roll and roller technique to reattach the awning rail. Use new stainless steel screws. this sound stupid but you need to make a small hole in the mastic to put the screw through, then a dab of mastic on the screw to seal that hole. If you don't the screwing action as you drive the screw home deforms the mastic strip behind the awning rail and could leave voids which will allow water in. 

 

Once you have reattached the awning rail replace the infill strip covering the screws with new, available from most good caravan suppliers. 

 

Finally replace the furniture, and enjoy your caravan. 

 

No repair will be perfect. Whilst I wouldn't say don't use an awning be careful not to over tension the roof poles. I would also advocate getting a cover to keep the worst of the rain off whilst not in use. About 100-150 but it will seriously help expend the life of your van,  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you

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Hi can you tell me is it a 32mm wide mastic roll I need to rebed a bailey pageant awning rail.

also any suggestions on what type of glue to stick new timbers to aluminium outer layer. Timber is rotten 

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I’ve gone with gorilla glue 

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sorry I missed your posts, Gorilla Glue is perfect. As for the mastic roll measure the rail width and use the next size up. when you have fitted the rail trim it with a blunt knife or pastic scraper at an angle away from the rail

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So any helpful hints in removing the overhead cabinets on the pageant ... I believe these are stapled together in places... there are two horizonartal timbers running about a half a foot below the window and then one horizontal timber that sits right on top of the windows frame timber..I have taken out the window and the frame and the timber above it is coming off in my hand. Any guidance on when a timber is not usable any more. 
thanks . I’ll put up some photos in a few days 

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Wood that is still soft when it's dry has had it. To be honest, wood is cheap so if in doubt, just replace it.

 

Dave.

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What a 6 hours I just put down!!!Took down awning rail from half of one side of the pageant ... that white stuff is an absolute nightmare to work with. Tried wire... didn’t work... ended up using the wood chisel to get in behind . Slow  work. The rubbers at the top and bottom of the rail got a fair going over in the process. I presume I can clean them and slip the back in.  For interests sake I also notice cracks in the grp panel where it connects to the wall but this will be covered by the awning rail. Now the awning rail is on the ground waiting for me to clean it, have ye any tips on making my life easier when cleaning it?. Also one or two of the awning  screws seems to be spinning easily. How do I check that the timber rail taking the awning rail is sound. If I bend up the roof metal that is overlapping the wall metal, I might see something but when I bend it back down it might shear?...sorrry for long wandering post ... I’m tired!!!!.3C4FB0B8-4645-4E82-8D81-6933A5BD9A12.jpeg.0484ae3e31f3b33bd95521962f59e839.jpeg3958B0BE-D2A6-4824-9CAF-A2D71C88441B.jpeg.c6b77ed72e1886c48f2220bdc170f8ee.jpeg

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Hi again. Putting back on awning rail tomorrow and  need some advice . I got w4 32mm mastic strip. It seems quite thin! ???. If I put this on my rail first and then raise it into position will the sealant strip meet the wall of the caravan ...or does it expand. My awning is in two havles. See pic attached of the half it is connecting to....do I need sikaflex 512 with this also.. thanks guys  .

Irishboy 

14577EB9-904C-4168-B944-4E037D803162.jpeg

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The W4 mastic strip is probably the worst thing to use when reattaching the awning rail.

 

Unless you drill each screw hole before inserting the screw , the screw will twist the W4 and leave gaps , also it does not expand, and lastly it provides nothing but a kind of seal, and not a very good one at that.

 

Personally I would never use W4 for anything on a caravan.

 

The best sealant and adhesive to use is Soudall Fixall, and a really good bead so that it extends outwards as the rail is screwed up, then tooled off to a smooth, angled finish to allow water to run off.

 

As I understand things, you have the fridge on the side you are working on, which normally means that you would attach an awning to this rail so you want a strong attachment, not just relying on the screws, which is what will happen with W4. It has no adhesive strength.

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Thanks Brecon. I have Sikaflex 512 which I can use. You say a really good bead.? Where is that exactly .. is it in the groove of the rubber strip shown with the orange  arrow?I could use the W4 strip along the middle and then a bead of sikaflex at the orange arrow? 
thanks... really amazed that w4 strip is not your fancy cause the internet seems to love it for caravan awnings...

090D95B5-FE11-4C0C-AE60-D8C36E26C5F8.jpeg

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The rubber strip should not need any as it is , or supposed to , seal on its own as the rail is tightened up.

The mastic needs to be all along the centre, filling the whole distance between both rubber seals, which should be very clean and supple.

 

You could use Sikaflex but it is not as easy to tool or work with as Soudall Fixall is.

It uses a lot of mastic, but that is just how it is.

 

I am not surprised by your comment about the Internet seeming to love W4,,,but not everything is the way it "seems", those who love it are not caravan engineers or have the inclination to find out how to do a job properly with long lasting effectiveness.

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Hi all again,

Just an update post in relation to my 2006 Pageant damp repair. I bought the van for 4500 euro and the repairs would be too costly to pay for professionally so I am attempting myself. Here is what I have learnt so far:

·         The awning rail isn’t the most likeliest of places for water to get into the body of the van as the roof metal overlaps the wall metal. The screw holes are the only area that should in theory leak into the caravan if water got inside the awning rail.

·         The roof straps are by far the biggest problem.. the water flows down the roof to the roof strap and the only thing that keeps the water from entering at this location is mastic and sealant.. After taking off one side of the awning rail, I didn’t have the heart to take off the roof straps.

SO I eeked out all the mastic down the sides of the roof strap and am resealing with a good bead of Sikaflex 512… see photo of strap prepared and ready for sealing. I then intend on getting a 4 inch wide roll of Rooflock tape or Eternabond and sealing the entire length of the roof strap from awning rail to awning rail….I know its not professional standard but can you tell me if it sounds like a decent repair. I am not bothered about how the roof looks… its only me looking at it….

·         I have removed some of the caravan ‘wallpaper’ inside to see more damp. The structural timbers are fine, wet but fine, the plywood is dark now as it is wet…. Will the ply dry out or will I have to remove. Its not coming off in my hand.. I would have to use force to remove it.

Thanks

Irishboy

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Posted (edited)

Regarding the roof strap, what you are proposing is a waste of time, money and effort and materials.

There is only one way to deal with the strap and that is to remove it, clean it thoroughly , and the van, apply new Soudall Fixall and refit , making sure the mastic squashes out along the strap length and paying special attention to the ends to ensure there are no gaps anywhere. Put a covering of mastic over each screw head when tightened.

 

New mastic will not stick to old, and for the sake of undoing some screws and the time to clean everything up, it is a no brainer.

Edited by Brecon
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Your doing a fine job, cleaning off the old mastic is a pain but as already said a necessity. Use white spirit on the mastic anc clean the area really well, after all this effort you don't want to miss a bit. when its clean, go over the area with methylated spirits to clean off the white residue that white spirit leaves.

 

The screw that won't tighten is most likely going into a rotten of soft piece of wood, if you can get at it, have a look and replace it if possible. Don't be mean with the mastic.

 

Dave.

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Thanks Brecon and Dave. Spent all day yesterday replacing awning rail(half of one side). Put 2 tubes of sika512 in it. Didn’t quite squeeze out the top though. The 3 screws in the vicinity of the roof strap /awning rail did not tighten. This is where the water got in day one I think. I also did the roof strap.I got it off fine, cleaned fine. Put sh1t loads of Sika 512... this really squeezed out the side big time but again the end screw with the cap didn’t tighten and also the 3rd screw up in twisted out on me so I don’t know if it was fully tightened or not...I presume I can try to extract this one screw again sometime and replace with another screw with no major problem .if it tightens the strap a bit more at that location , will that adversely  affect the thing in any way?

I put two blocks on it for the night to weight it down and hopefully stick it.


I can’t get to the rotten timber where the screws won’t take without taking the thing apart completely and a2006 pageant is not worth it.

its a horrible job and the Sikaflex is a disaster of a material to work with...

thanks 

 

 

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Well done and congratulations on your efforts.

The screws that did not tighten will be held by the Sikaflex once cured, so you will probably get away with any further problems.

 

When you see how rippled the roof skin is under the strap, it is no wonder it is prone to leaking and tends to show the lack of care and expertise in the workmanship during build.

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