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Oscarmax

Hybrids Towing

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I have just being looking at some of the latest Hybrid coming onto the market, the majority having very limited towing ability, the new Ford Kuga PHEV 1200 kg, Peugeot 3008 PHEV 1250 kg, Honda CRV Hybrid as far as I can remember 750 kg, Toyota RAV4 2WD 800 kg, only the Toyota RAV4 4WD/VW Passat PHEV/Skoda Superb PHEV has a decent 1600 kg, however the VW based vehicle need factory upgrades to the cooling system, the old outgoing  Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV has a 1500 kg, but this is due to be replaced midway through 2020 with the new model who not say they may follow other manufacture trends and reduce the towing weight to protect the drive train and batteries. There are some very expensive PHEV like the Audi/Volvo/BMW etc capable of towing, but virtually out of reach of the average caravanner.

 

Electric vehicles  Jaguar iPace can tow around 750 kg, the Tesla can tow 2000kg but I have read somewhere to protect the drive train only 100 miles at any one time ? 

 

Before all of this scandal I was happily running with my diesel Honda CRV's/Audi A4 and Ford Kuga getting around 40 mpg and 28 mpg towing, now there is a mass exodus manufactures producing less than less decent diesel towing vehicle, what is left being strangle?

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No big surprise there, most hybrids are based on one of the manufacturers standard platforms. The GTW is based on that platform. Any extra weight of electric motor and batteries has to be taken out of the towing limit.

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Volvo XC90 T8 (plug in hybrid) will tow 2400kg. 

 

BMW X5 Plugin Hybrid will tow 2,700 kg.

 

Both expensive cars.

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Going back to original post the 'average caravaner' also Hybrid need to serviced by main dealership, the average garage is not equipped to service or work on these cars.

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There is no mainstream hybrid that I know of totally suitable for towing. The ICE tends to be fairly low powered and not up to the job once the electrics have no power. The cars will come though but at a price.

There are no electric cars suitable for most of us at any price. Even those that can tow have a very low limit or a towing range that is likely to be under 100 miles. Added to that is that all charging points that I have seen have had room for only the car they would need somewhere to leave the caravan when on tour while you charge the car. I would wait a bit before changing to any of them.

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Hybrid is still in its relative infancy and the only real reason the cars are so popular is the company car tax benefits and now private buyers jumping on the eco band wagon. At the moment car manufactuers make plenty of quality alternative diesel and petrol cars which tick the boxes for people who need to tow, when the regulations see these IC cars banned then they will focus there efforts on making a suitable car. I wouldn't be surprised if in the future we see the 3500kg limit lifted for normal car licenses which special caveats for electric commericals or large 4x4s.

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1 minute ago, tom_1989 said:

Hybrid is still in its relative infancy and the only real reason the cars are so popular is the company car tax benefits and now private buyers jumping on the eco band wagon. At the moment car manufactuers make plenty of quality alternative diesel and petrol cars which tick the boxes for people who need to tow, when the regulations see these IC cars banned then they will focus there efforts on making a suitable car. I wouldn't be surprised if in the future we see the 3500kg limit lifted for normal car licenses which special caveats for electric commericals or large 4x4s.

 

Why would the extra weight of batteries be justification for increasing the 3,500 kg limit? Mid-market family caravans have increased from 800 to 1800 kg over my caravanning time, it's time now for their weights to start reducing.

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14 minutes ago, Black Grouse said:

...it's time now for their weights to start reducing.


100% agree.

 

As for hybrids towing, you can go used with the VW Golf GTE which could tow a smaller family van

 

We will probably keep our Pursuit longer than we originally intended (5 years) as we really like it and it does 95% of what we want it to which means 1300kg is enough for me so a Mk8 Golf Hybrid would work a treat when it comes out. 

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1 hour ago, Oscarmax said:

I

 

Electric vehicles  Jaguar iPace can tow around 750 kg, the Tesla can tow 2000kg but I have read somewhere to protect the drive train only 100 miles at any one time ? 

 

 

i'm not aware of any limitations on towing but haven't read the tesla model x handbook fully-you buy it with the towing pack-it can't be added afterwards, and is rated at towing 2200kg. The mileage limitation would probably be the reduced range rather than any limitation of the drive train-towing will knock the 300mile range significantly and of course the heavier the caravan the less the range. I really want one but £80k!!!!!

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26 minutes ago, Black Grouse said:

 

Why would the extra weight of batteries be justification for increasing the 3,500 kg limit? Mid-market family caravans have increased from 800 to 1800 kg over my caravanning time, it's time now for their weights to start reducing.

 

Batteries and electric motors weigh considerably more than fuel and an IC engine so to keep the same weight carrying capacity and a practical range the GVW will have to increase aswell, i was thinking more for LGVs such as vans and pick ups. Forget caravans there are millions more miles a year done by people towing trailers for work, builders, contractors, tree surgeons, horse transport or like us vehicle transport and no matter what you do these weights cant really be reduced.

Edited by tom_1989

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I find it disappointing that hybrids have been included along with ICE vehicles in the 2035 target ban.
Most transitions rely on intermediate staging posts to ease that changeover.  So a hybrid vehicle could be such a stage in the transition to full electric. It would relieve some of the pressure on the construction of the required charging infrastructure for all electric vehicles.

 

I can’t help thinking that the derisory electric range of current hybrids has played into the governments hands. Were there a hybrid out there that had a 100mile electric range it might have had a bigger voice.  I must say I would consider a hybrid with that sort of ‘day to day’ range. I wouldn’t expect to use electric when towing.  It goes without saying that such a vehicle must be capable of safely towing a heavy trailer.
 

Frankly, the idea of towing a caravan to the south of France, Austria, Spain or Italy twice a year with a purely electric car fills me with dread. It’s not just OUR charging infrastructure but the preparedness in these other countries as well. 
 

So a hybrid with sensible electric range (and an adequate tugging capability for us) would seem to be a positive step rather than a distraction.
 

 

 

Edited by ericfield

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I believe the Government have included Hybrids because it is clear that manufacturers are clearly bringing out hybrids that do the minimum required to bring down the CO2 emissions across their ranges to just below the required level by law.

It is a clear case of manufacturers doing just the required. The ban including hybrids forces the hands of these manufacturers to clearly look at  proper alternatives to ICE rather than to just do the minimum.

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24 minutes ago, warrenb said:

I believe the Government have included Hybrids because it is clear that manufacturers are clearly bringing out hybrids that do the minimum required to bring down the CO2 emissions across their ranges to just below the required level by law.

It is a clear case of manufacturers doing just the required. The ban including hybrids forces the hands of these manufacturers to clearly look at  proper alternatives to ICE rather than to just do the minimum.

 

Exactly - hybrids are designed specifically to reduce CO2 during the short period of the test cycle - as well as reducing a manufacturer's corporate CO2 output to minimise the effect of EU fines they are attractive to business users as they reduce their BIK tax - hybrids do virtually nothing to reduce global CO2.

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Rav4 has a 1650kg towlimit for one version of hybrid, but only something like a 70kg nose weight limit, a more powerful version is out late this year.

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18 minutes ago, Black Grouse said:

 

Exactly - hybrids are designed specifically to reduce CO2 during the short period of the test cycle - as well as reducing a manufacturer's corporate CO2 output to minimise the effect of EU fines they are attractive to business users as they reduce their BIK tax - hybrids do virtually nothing to reduce global CO2.

As regards CO2, if a plug tested in hybrid PHEV running in pure petrol mode only how would it fair.

 

My other question will the vehicle manufactures really be interested in manufacturing car capable of towing a caravan, it seems Honda have turned their backs. 

4 minutes ago, xtrailman said:

Rav4 has a 1650kg towlimit for one version of hybrid, but only something like a 70kg nose weight limit, a more powerful version is out late this year.

 

That's going to be  the new PHEV.

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I have actually placed an order for a new Mitsubishi Outlander Design PHEV, at present due to the new model coming out later this year, plus pressure from other manufactures like Ford Kuga and Peugeot PHEV entering the market, they are virtually giving them away, I have gone for a very basic model.

 

From my position I can charge up off peak at night 0.30 - 04.30 am @ 5 pence a kWh = £0.50 for 20 or so miles, the majority of my journeys are around the 25 mile mark, so for me it a financially decision, I have had a long test drive and we are more than happy with the Outlander PHEV compared to our Ford Kuga diesel powershift. 

 

The Ford Kuga is  a  good match to our swift Conqueror 480, obviously we have not had the opportunity to tow with the latest 2.4 Outlander PHEV, we except we are going to be towing in petrol mode according to others and the Outlander forums 24 mpg towing seems the average in the UK.

 

Like I said ours is a pure financial decision the sums add up we only tow 2,000 miles or so a years so are not big caravaners, we do not expect the Outlander to tow as well as the Kuga

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What can the big Lexus tow?

theyve been out for year’s surely more affordable 

Duncan

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I tow a Pegasus Ancona with a Passat GTE 2020 model.

 

No problem at all. It doesn't need or have any extra cooling fitted.

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On 25/02/2020 at 13:44, Oscarmax said:

I have actually placed an order for a new Mitsubishi Outlander Design PHEV, at present due to the new model coming out later this year, plus pressure from other manufactures like Ford Kuga and Peugeot PHEV entering the market, they are virtually giving them away, I have gone for a very basic model.

 

How much dearer than the equivalent Diesel model though? 

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3 hours ago, Easy T said:

How much dearer than the equivalent Diesel model though? 


Can’t get one now

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On 25/02/2020 at 12:24, warrenb said:

I believe the Government have included Hybrids because it is clear that manufacturers are clearly bringing out hybrids that do the minimum required to bring down the CO2 emissions across their ranges to just below the required level by law.

It is a clear case of manufacturers doing just the required. The ban including hybrids forces the hands of these manufacturers to clearly look at  proper alternatives to ICE rather than to just do the minimum.


I am aware there is a hidden agenda. But if they can effect a reduction in CO2 to meet current legislation.....make the legislation even stronger to get emissions even lower....rather than giving up on a process that could offer an interim solution for those of us that aren’t going to be catered for by EV for some time (viz caravan towers)

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11 minutes ago, ericfield said:


I am aware there is a hidden agenda. But if they can effect a reduction in CO2 to meet current legislation.....make the legislation even stronger to get emissions even lower....rather than giving up on a process that could offer an interim solution for those of us that aren’t going to be catered for by EV for some time (viz caravan towers)

Unfortunately you can neither legislate, nor tax into existence technology which has not been invented yet!

 

All hybrids, other than plug in, are only an ICE Car with a bit of battery power to help when at its least efficient.

Plug in hybrids are stuck with the same battery limitations as EVs, truly suitable batteries are yet to be developed, even if they are possible.

And when the battery runs out they are back to ICE.

Edited by Stevan

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36 minutes ago, Stevan said:

Plug in hybrids are stuck with the same battery limitations as EVs, truly suitable batteries are yet to be developed, even if they are possible.

And when the battery runs out they are back to ICE.


Not quite. For example, the VW 1.4 plug-in can work in a number of modes, the most interesting to me is that it will use a small amount of engine power to keep the battery charged either to ensure you have battery power when you need it (in town, for example) or when towing in the performance option which always ensures you have battery support for the 1.4 engine to get the full 200+ bhp and near 300lb/ft of torque.

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17 minutes ago, FrankBullet said:


Not quite. For example, the VW 1.4 plug-in can work in a number of modes, the most interesting to me is that it will use a small amount of engine power to keep the battery charged either to ensure you have battery power when you need it (in town, for example) or when towing in the performance option which always ensures you have battery support for the 1.4 engine to get the full 200+ bhp and near 300lb/ft of torque.

But when the battery runs low it is still an IC engine lugging around the dead weight of a set of batteries and a motor. Even when running electric it is lugging around the dead weight of an IC engine and transmission.   Might yield favourable results on the official test, but hardly efficient in reality.

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