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Wellys and Mac

No more Diesel or Petrol cars after 2035.

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3 minutes ago, CommanderDave said:

 

My thoughts also as fuel demand drops the fuel stations will not be able to keep going and they will be like pubs disappearing .

The proposed ban only affect cars. Trucks will still be sold with diesel engines and they will need fuel for a very long time.

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18 minutes ago, CommanderDave said:

 

My thoughts also as fuel demand drops the fuel stations will not be able to keep going and they will be like pubs disappearing .

From my observations when I visit the UK I was of the opinion that fuel stations had already mostly disapeared (most have become hand car washes), mainly supermarkets that sell fuel in the UK now isn't it?

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There has certainly been an upsurge in Supermarkets selling fuel. The smaller fuel stations must find it hard to compete unless well placed

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Slightly off topic, around where we live houses are being built, not one of them have solar panels, surely if the government were really dealing with so called climate change, any planning applications should have them as part of the agreement.  🤔

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3 hours ago, David 38 said:

The news said no new petrol, diesel and hybrids after 2035

 

only found this out after posting

1 hour ago, Borussia 1900 said:

I was listening to Michael Gove being interviewed by Julia Hartley Brewer on Talk Radio this morning, she kept pushing him on who's going to pay for the electric car charging infrastructure and how much is it going to cost. As usual, he would not/could not give her a straight answer.

 

Borussia,   Are you going through in Germany what we are,   the UK seem to be making the right noises with regard to Climate Change, I hear not a jot about what China and India and USA are doing, as far as USA is concerned, Trump does not believe Climate Change is happening , if i'm around in 2035, which I doubt, I would be thinking of taking our van down to Spain and leaving it in storage and going down three times a year, we have thought about buying a van out there and leaving it in storage.

 

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27 minutes ago, Les Medes said:

 

only found this out after posting

 

Borussia,   Are you going through in Germany what we are,   the UK seem to be making the right noises with regard to Climate Change, I hear not a jot about what China and India and USA are doing, as far as USA is concerned, Trump does not believe Climate Change is happening , if i'm around in 2035, which I doubt, I would be thinking of taking our van down to Spain and leaving it in storage and going down three times a year, we have thought about buying a van out there and leaving it in storage.

 

The German Government love the 'Climate Emergency' it is literally a licence to print money (by taxing me even more) and the sheep just lap it up.

 

Problem is that Germany (Mrs M) has banned nasty nuclear power stations and they want to stop burning coal/lignite but the power network is struggling now so lord knows where they plan to get all this extra electricty from, there is no infrastructure for charging electric cars at the moment and most Germans live in flats, they can't park their cars next to their house to charge them.

 

As for leaving my caravan in Spain that may be an option, loads of Dutch folk do that already.

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This is a long article from The Times.

Grants to help buy electric cars could be scrapped in the next two months despite government plans to bring forward a ban on new petrol and diesel vehicles.

The £3,500 subsidy scheme for buyers of plug-in cars expires at the end of March and motor industry leaders fear that it will be ditched in favour of other measures.

Ministers have already said the long-term future of the grant will be “inviable in terms of costs to the taxpayer” as registration rates grow.

A cross-government strategy published 18 months ago said there would be a “managed exit from the grant in due course”, with public money spent instead on other incentives including support for more roadside chargers and industry funding to build more electric vehicles in the UK.

A final decision on the future of the grant – which can be put towards the purchase of cars such as the Nissan Leaf, Renault Zoe, BMW i3 and Volkswagen e-Golf – will be made in the budget on March 11, almost three weeks before it runs out.

Electric cars typically cost up to £10,000 more than their petrol and diesel equivalents. The Renault Zoe costs about £22,000, rising to £27,500 for the VW e-Golf and £37,500 for the Hyundai Kona premium.

The Society of Motor Manufacturing and Trading (SMMT) warned that any decision to cut or abolish the grant would blow a significant hole in Britain’s ambitions to cut roadside emissions. It also criticised the UK’s “woefully inadequate” public roadside charging networks.

The comments were made after Boris Johnson announced today that a ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel cars would be brought forward by five years.

The prime minister said that the purchase of new combustion engine cars and vans will now end in 2035 rather than the previous target of 2040. Restrictions could be introduced even earlier if a “faster transition is feasible”.

New hybrid vehicles which run on both a combustion engine and battery power will also be banned, subject to a consultation process.

The government insisted that it would work with the motor industry to accelerate the roll out of zero-emission vehicles including pure electric cars and those powered by hydrogen.

The announcement comes amid concerns that the transition to cleaner cars is still too slow in the UK despite a sharp rise in electric car sales recently.

Latest industry figures show that 37,850 battery electric cars were sold in the UK last year, well over double the number a year earlier. However, they still made up only 1.6 per cent of new cars sold last year and just 0.2 per cent of total vehicles on UK roads.

Mr Johnson’s pledge will be made at an event in central London to launch the next UN climate conference. The UK will host the conference – COP26 – in Glasgow in November.

However, the SMMT criticised the government for “moving the goalposts for consumers and industry”. It also said that uncertainty over the future of the plug-in car grant, which is a “significant driver” of sales, was a huge concern. It can be used to buy any plug-in vehicle with a zero-emission range of at least 70 miles.

Mike Hawes, chief executive of the motor industry body, said: “With current demand for this still-expensive technology still just a fraction of sales, it’s clear that accelerating an already very challenging ambition will take more than industry investment. This is about market transformation, yet we still don’t have clarity on the future of the plug-in car grant — the most significant driver of [electric vehicle] uptake, which ends in just 60 days’ time, while the UK’s charging network is still woefully inadequate.

 

“If the UK is to lead the global zero-emissions agenda, we need a competitive marketplace and a competitive business environment to encourage manufacturers to sell and build here. A date without a plan will merely destroy value today.”

Grant Shapps, the transport secretary, said: “Last year alone, a fully electric car was sold every 15 minutes. We want to go further than ever before. That’s why we are bringing forward our already ambitious target to end the sale of new petrol and diesel cars to tackle climate change and reduce emissions.”

The government is expected to launch a consultation into an earlier ban on combustion engine cars in the coming months.

Motoring groups criticised the “incredibly challenging” shift, which is made in the face of a shortage of new electric cars in the UK. Some models have waiting lists of up to 12 months.

It also criticised the proposed ban on the sale of hybrids which currently outsell pure electric cars.

Edmund King, the AA president, said: “We must question whether we will have a sufficient supply of a full cross-section of zero-emissions vehicles in less than 15 years.”

He added: “Manufacturers are also spending billions on developing state of the art hybrids which are zero emissions for many journeys but these will also be excluded from sale. This seems a very backward step that could backfire by encouraging drivers to hold onto older more polluting vehicles for longer.”

However, Mike Childs, head of policy at Friends of the Earth, said that the new target was not ambitious enough.

“The government is right to accelerate the phase-out of petrol and diesel cars to curb air pollution and address the climate emergency, but the ban should start in 2030, not 2035,” he said.

“A new 2035 target will still leave the UK in the slow-lane of the electric car revolution and meantime allow more greenhouse gases to spew into the atmosphere.”

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32 minutes ago, Tradewinds said:

This is a long article from The Times.

Grants to help buy electric cars could be scrapped in the next two months despite government plans to bring forward a ban on new petrol and diesel vehicles.

The £3,500 subsidy scheme for buyers of plug-in cars expires at the end of March and motor industry leaders fear that it will be ditched in favour of other measures.

 

It's a shame the grant didn't cover the price difference between the electric car and its petrol/diesel derivative, that would have been a proper leveler and would have encouraged more people to give it a go.

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A couple of points.

Did the gov create the petrol and diesel supply system, no the fuel companies did. So why should the gov fund an electric charging network? They just pass a law outlawing sales of diesel,petrol and hybrids and everyone else has to sort out the  issue at very little cost to gov!

Second with the massive loss of duty and tax on fuel (about £30 billion a year) how is the gov going to make up the shortfall?

 

Electricity  grid are already planning upgrades, they stopped selling off land surrounding substations a few years ago so they have space for bigger transformers!!!!

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Changing a house from gas heating to electric does not cost much, only a few £20 convector or fan heaters and the hot water cylinder already usually has an electric heating element. So no need for any government subsidies. It would make houses cheaper to build as well. Heating with electric though costs more than gas.

 

A big problem will be providing all the new power stations as pointed out earlier. This aspect is more significant than saying no more petrol/diesel cars and vans. They can not be gas since that would not be carbon neutral, similar burning oil (diesel not used in cars). It can not really be bio mass since that requires forests in south America to be cut down and still produces green house gases unless the CO2 is captured. Solar and wind turbines do not always produce enough and there needs to be many more. To build nuclear takes decades if it can get approval. It could be people will have to do without cars and not travel as much.

Edited by Paul1957
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22 minutes ago, Ched said:

Electricity  grid are already planning upgrades, they stopped selling off land surrounding substations a few years ago so they have space for bigger transformers!!!!

 

They have plans.

 

But currently only a small percentage of the funding required.

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Do not forget that dates can be changed and legislation can be delayed (anyone remember Brexit?).

It would not need to slip far to be beyond my lifetime!

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If common sense prevails,  which is unlikely, the money pit HS2 wll be killed. The savings could be used to make sure the whole country has decent broadband and mobile coverage.  Improve the existing rail network and repair our roads!

They could also encourage use of solar panels,  and ensure the electrical network can cope with increased demand.

Pigs might fly:)

 

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3 hours ago, Easy T said:

There is no planned change to existing properties at present. 

 

But it will come and quickly.

 

The UK has met it's rolling targets over the last decade by phasing out  coal generation. Now that's done the difficult bit starts, reducing gas.

There's no scope for Gas in homes if we are to achieve net zero by 2050.

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Interesting-then they've changed it since last time-we'll be joining the rush to buy a new tow car just before that date then unless they produce something decent in the meantime! Sorry I was wrong.

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Electric heating costs about 5-6 times as much as gas unless you can afford to install a heatpump which can cost between 3-4 times as much as a gas boiler. You also need to bear in mind that you cant just swap a boiler with a heatpump whatever any one says. You need to uptrade the whole heating system to suit the different operating characteristics of the heatpump. You also need to teach people how to use them properly.

 

I guess that those who cook with gas will all have to swap over to leccy as well

 

I am still wondering where all this extra electricity is going to come from and how it's going to get around the country when its heating our homes, cooking our meals and running our cars. I cant see solar panels doing much to keep my house warm, cooking my dinner or recharging my car when its freezing cold outside, the sun isn't shining and its only daylight for a few hours in the winter. The same with wind turbines.

 

As it happens we are all electric and we've got a heatpump but you should see how much leccy we use at this time of the year compared with what we use in the summer - in fact here it is (the divisons are 200kwh). Just think whats going to happen when evryone is doing the same AND trying to recharge their leccy cars. Try superimposing it on a solar power generation graph and see how well it matches the demand - it doesn't it's almost exactly opposite - lots of leccy in the summer and not much at all when you need it.image.thumb.png.6297cad4ec2d94abe9eb47110cba8acf.png

 

 

 

 

Edited by matelodave
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New ;houses should by law be heat pumps and come with solar panels-that would help us with cheaper heat pumps-would love to get off oil but heat pump would be VERY expensive and don't work well with radiators apparently.. As per usual as yet no joined up thinking. Hydrogen might help us!

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10 minutes ago, Paul1957 said:

Changing a house from gas heating to electric does not cost much, only a few £20 convector or fan heaters and the hot water cylinder already usually has an electric heating element. So no need for any government subsidies. 

 

I think that is not actually the whole picture. Lots of homes have gas combi. boilers which do not require a storage tank and consequently dont have a means to heat water via. electricity.

 

Lots have been built like that from new, or like us when we changed our ageing and environmentally unfriendly boiler we swapped to a combi. The copper storage tank was removed and sent for recycling.

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7 minutes ago, matelodave said:

Electric heating costs about 5-6 times as much as gas unless you can afford to install a heatpump which can cost between 3-4 times as much as a gas boiler. You also need to bear in mind that you cant just swap a boiler with a heatpump whatever any one says. You need to uptrade the whole heating system to suit the different operating characteristics of the heatpump. You also need to teach people how to use them properly.

 

I guess that those who cook with gas will all have to swap over to leccy as well

 

I am still wondering where all this extra electricity is going to come from and how it's going to get around the country when its heating our homes, cooking our meals and running our cars.

 

Maximum demand is expected to grow by 50%  - 75% by 2050. (Although it's been declining)

 

The model for house heating  is for solar/heatpump and insulation and not to stick a 3kW heater in every room.

 

How we do that and finance it is unknown.

Edited by logiclee

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I think to ban gas from new houses the insulation regs need to stipulate much much higher levels of insulation and better ventilation systems.

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16 minutes ago, logiclee said:

 

The model for house heating  is for solar/heatpump and insulation and not to stick a 3kW heater in every room.

 

 

Well that "model" is not being used here, many new builds are taking place and not a sign of any solar panels. :unsure:

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9 minutes ago, kiaboy said:

 

Well that "model" is not being used here, many new builds are taking place and not a sign of any solar panels. :unsure:

 

That's the model that EUETS, Carbon Trading and the grid have been using to predict future demand for the next 30-50 years.

Legislation other than the net zero by 2050 has been slow to come over the last 3 years due partly to brexit but expect that to change quickly as CO2 reductions have tailed off now we have dismissed nearly all coal

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You will need an electric boiler. The immersion  heater isn't of sufficient capacity to heat water and warm the house. About 10-12KW would be needed. In addition the water going round radiators is separate from bath water.

Extra electrical wiring would also be required, not only in your house but also down the entire road to the sub stations.

A recent reckoning was £5000 per three bedroom semi detached.

This is all before you work out the huge annual increase in your energy bill, lots of planning and thought needed for this one.

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1 hour ago, Jezzerb said:

Interesting-then they've changed it since last time-we'll be joining the rush to buy a new tow car just before that date then unless they produce something decent in the meantime! Sorry I was wrong.

Tempting, but I suspect that fossil fuel cars will be banned from many towns and cities.

 

 

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One additional point. When we reach electric car paradise, then what happens to the container ships bring all our toys from China etc. These ships burn about 200liters/minute of 500cst fuel oil, in their engines. Never mind lubricating oil and cylinder oils. What is going to move them about the oceans?

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