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Wellys and Mac

No more Diesel or Petrol cars after 2035.

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3 hours ago, JCloughie said:


Therefore passing the emissions on to open areas and through high chimneys.  Great for towns and cities, but how effective, if any, for the global  situation?

 

John 

Very effective. Consider, green energy solar / wind etc, where a power station is used it is run in the most efficient way with minimal emissions. Every way you look at EV's they improve the overall emissions.

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The EV manufacturers have been coming in for some scrutiny from the likes of Amnesty International. They use 15kg or more of cobalt in each one. Most of which comes from the DRC, where there human treatment is disgraceful. Look up the child labour force working for pennies a day, while the Chinese owned refineries make money hand over fist. 
 

There’s some call for cobalt to be treated in the same way as conflict diamonds, to try and make the supply more ethical. 

 

Not to mention the environmental damage caused by the mining. But the affluent western EV proponents seem to gloss over that. 

 

Of course the petrochemical industry is not saintly in any way either. 

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1 hour ago, Fireman Iain said:

The EV manufacturers have been coming in for some scrutiny from the likes of Amnesty International. They use 15kg or more of cobalt in each one. Most of which comes from the DRC, where there human treatment is disgraceful. Look up the child labour force working for pennies a day, while the Chinese owned refineries make money hand over fist. 
 

There’s some call for cobalt to be treated in the same way as conflict diamonds, to try and make the supply more ethical. 

 

Not to mention the environmental damage caused by the mining. But the affluent western EV proponents seem to gloss over that. 

 

Of course the petrochemical industry is not saintly in any way either. 

Interesting point about cobalt and all manufacturers are developing batteries which dont use it, several solutions have been found but not in production yet. Cobalt is of course used in many other applications - laptops, phones, power tools etc. I'm not glossing over it nor am I going to not have an EV because of whats happening, the mining companies need to make a stand to improve conditions and we have to pay the price, the latter being not popular with all of us!

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58 minutes ago, FrankBullet said:

It certainly hammers the range, down to 50%, the important question being what range do you have to start with. A Tesla with it's 300+ would be OK, especially with the 'Superchargers' the Audi with it's 200 mile may start to get a little tiresome and any less would be a right pain. 

Thanks for the link, interesting reading.

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1 hour ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

It certainly hammers the range, down to 50%, the important question being what range do you have to start with. A Tesla with it's 300+ would be OK, especially with the 'Superchargers' the Audi with it's 200 mile may start to get a little tiresome and any less would be a right pain. 

Thanks for the link, interesting reading.

 

Well they reckon an ICE  loses 50% of its power due to trailer drag ... 🤔

 

Any form of energy to power a vehicle will be increased when towing a trailer .

 

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/towing/towing-capacity/information/towing-gas-mileage.htm

Edited by Silverback

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I quite agree, the Passat will do mid 50’s mpg cruising at an indicated 75mph for hours on end and 28mpg towing.

 

Appreciate an e-tron isn’t the most efficient electric car but over 100 miles before taking a break isn’t a bad thing

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On ‎12‎/‎02‎/‎2020 at 23:00, The Happy Gnome said:

 

Not quite, lets not have 'fake news' perpetrated here thank you very much.

 

Both dates are subject to parliamentary approval and bringing the date forward is subject to consultation and is merely a suggestion..

I'm not doing "fake news", I don't just say things for the sake of it.  I quoted this date because it was stated on Radio 2 news last week whilst I was listening to the Jeremy Vine show.  Couldn't really care less whether it has to have parliamentary approval.  It seems to me that if the Government wants something done, it seems to make sure it does.  Personally, I would rather the diesel cars keep going.  At this point in time, you can't now get a new diesel Volvo as they don't make them anymore.  Don't know about other car manufacturers

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9 hours ago, Paul1957 said:

Another thing that has reduced emissions in the UK is closing factories and making most things abroad.

Business premises in the UK cleaned up when the Clean Air Act legislation forced them to. Many process which were traditionally unhealthy and dirty are now completely clean. There have been casualties because some could not afford to invest in the expensive equipment to comply. 

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16 minutes ago, Babstreefern said:

I'm not doing "fake news", I don't just say things for the sake of it.  I quoted this date because it was stated on Radio 2 news last week whilst I was listening to the Jeremy Vine show.  Couldn't really care less whether it has to have parliamentary approval.  It seems to me that if the Government wants something done, it seems to make sure it does.  Personally, I would rather the diesel cars keep going.  At this point in time, you can't now get a new diesel Volvo as they don't make them anymore.  Don't know about other car manufacturers

 

Sorry but from my point of view quoting anything from Jeremy Vine is a lost cause, I've no idea how he gets away with the "so called" journalism on his show; lightweight and inaccurate barely scratches the surface of some of his dreadful comment.

 

As to the comment about "parliamentary approval"  well I'm lost. This just goes to prove how the government can easily manipulate the media, the government will be so pleased to see this. They make unsubstantiated claims about something and the next thing is people are quoting it as fact, just what they want. Without parliamentary approval the comments are worthless but it obvious some are taken in ... 

 

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1 hour ago, Babstreefern said:

I'm not doing "fake news", I don't just say things for the sake of it.  I quoted this date because it was stated on Radio 2 news last week whilst I was listening to the Jeremy Vine show.  Couldn't really care less whether it has to have parliamentary approval.  It seems to me that if the Government wants something done, it seems to make sure it does.  Personally, I would rather the diesel cars keep going.  At this point in time, you can't now get a new diesel Volvo as they don't make them anymore.  Don't know about other car manufacturers

 

Im afraid Mr. Vine is rather well known for not being entirely accurate in how he puts things across, distorting things in order to increase his audience figures.

 

This was a prime example, reporting things as 'fact' when it was nothing of the sort.

 

You can still buy a new diesel Volvo BTW, its just that they have said they wont be launching any new models with diesel engines. They are moving to petrol electric hybrids as a transition to fully electric across all their range.

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8 hours ago, Babstreefern said:

At this point in time, you can't now get a new diesel Volvo as they don't make them anymore.  Don't know about other car manufacturers


That’s simply not true.

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I went on the Volvo web site last week to see what V90 models have replaced my D4. The answer was none! I honestly thought Volvo were now all hybrids only but you can still order the same today that you could last year. Back in March last year I tried to order a V90 as a company car but Volvo had stopped taking orders for new cars as a model change was due in summer 2019. I assumed it was to do with a "hybrids only" policy but it looks like nothing changed at all.

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Volvo and other manufacturers are not so daft as to cease diesel sales whilst there remains a demand for them.

 

Of course demand is falling so there will come a point when it becomes uneconomical to maintain production but (nox production aside) they remain the best choice for high mileage users, especially if you need to tow something.

 

Petrol electric hybrids, particularly self charging ones are a reasonable alternative especially for those people not lucky enough to be able to charge their vehicles at home, (like my daughter who would have liked full electric but it was niether practical nor affordable).

 

To include hybrids (especially petrol electric) in the forthcoming ban on ICE cars is IMHO utter folly. They were a totally logicalal way to transition to full electric.

 

Edited by The Happy Gnome

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6 minutes ago, The Happy Gnome said:

Volvo and other manufacturers are not so daft as to cease diesel sales whilst there remains a demand for them.

 

Of course demand is falling so there will come a point when it becomes uneconomical to maintain production but (nox production aside) they remain the best choice for high mileage users, especially if you need to tow something.

 

Petrol electric hybrids, particularly self charging ones are a reasonable alternative especially for those people not lucky enough to be able to charge their vehicles at home, (like my daughter who would have liked full electric but it was niether practical nor affordable).

 

To include hybrids (especially petrol electric) in the forthcoming ban on ICE cars is IMHO utter folly. They were a totally logicalal way to transition to full electric.

 

 

Volvo aren't launching any new models with solely combustion engines. So basically any new model launched will not have diesel or petrol engines as options. Volvo launch their first BEV this year.

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Just now, Silverback said:

 

Volvo aren't launching any new models with solely combustion engines. So basically any new model launched will not have diesel or petrol engines as options. Volvo launch their first BEV this year.

 

Yes, correct. I said that in my earlier post when I was responding to a claim that Volvo diesels are no longer available.

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9 hours ago, Silverback said:

 

Well they reckon an ICE  loses 50% of its power due to trailer drag ... 🤔

 

Any form of energy to power a vehicle will be increased when towing a trailer .

 

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-parts/towing/towing-capacity/information/towing-gas-mileage.htm

 

My experience, over nearly 4 decades is that about a third is "lost" - not nearly as much as half.

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How many 150 kw charging points is there here ? 30 minutes recharge every 100 miles .

 

https://jalopnik.com/an-audi-e-tron-towed-a-gm-ev1-from-tulsa-to-austin-ran-1841707034?utm_source=jalopnik_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2020-02-16

 

Dave

Edited by CommanderDave

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2 hours ago, Black Grouse said:

 

My experience, over nearly 4 decades is that about a third is "lost" - not nearly as much as half.

 

Depends what your towing,  where your towing  & what your towing with 🤔

 

There's also no clear stats to say you loose an additional 50% battery capacity when towing. 

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19 minutes ago, Silverback said:

 

Depends what your towing,  where your towing  & what your towing with 🤔

 

There's also no clear stats to say you loose an additional 50% battery capacity when towing. 

Its a good assumption though.

 

I guess most of us find that our towing range reduces and fuel consumption increases by around 30-50% whether we are using petrol or diesel so it would be a reasonable guess that an EV vehicle would perform similarly.

 

However battery capacity is also reduced when higher loads are drawn from them - Puerkert's Law applies to Lead Acid batteries and I'd guess that there's a similar reduction when pulling more current from a Li-on battery and I'm sure that heaving an extra ton(ne) or more around will hammer the batteries a bit more than usual.

 

Have a look at this - I'm not suggesting that the battery management system in an EV would act like this but it does show what happens when you increase the current drain to both the capacity and cycle life of the battery so towing may have an adveres effect on the longevity of the battery pack (even if it just increases the number of charge/discharge cycles)

li-on battery-discharge.png

Edited by matelodave

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5 minutes ago, Silverback said:

 

Depends what your towing,  where your towing  & what your towing with 🤔

 

There's also no clear stats to say you loose an additional 50% battery capacity when towing. 

 

For all my various tow cars and three caravans of distinctly different shapes, the loss of 1/3 of the mpg when towing caravans has been consistent for me

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As I mentioned previously, three phase supplies are now being discussed for new properties to help with system load balancing and the use of better chargers, but the one point that is being danced around is the fact that at present, household EV's tend to be only one car.  Seeing as most households have at least TWO cars there might be a future point reached where multiple charging points are needed.  This is creating a problem.

 

The only real solution is a complete mind-set shift over cars and transport needs, but most folk (me included) simply cannot comprehend life without the convenience of the I.C.E sitting in the drive.

 

EV's are coming.  Change will be forced upon us.  No-one knows all the details because they still haven't been decided on.  All we can do is keep our eyes and ears open because we cannot change the direction of the path that is being followed.

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1 hour ago, Black Grouse said:

 

For all my various tow cars and three caravans of distinctly different shapes, the loss of 1/3 of the mpg when towing caravans has been consistent for me

I have found a similar loss. There is one thing though to consider, when towing we are likely to be driving slower. A better comparison might be solo or towing but at the same speed when it might be towing a caravan doubles the fuel use. In the 1980s I towed a trailer tent with a Maxi and found my fuel consumption reduced which I put down to driving slower, might have been a 50 mph limit then when towing.

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I have always found my motorway towing mpg to be close to the declared Urban mpg of the solo vehicle.

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