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Wellys and Mac

No more Diesel or Petrol cars after 2035.

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I don't doubt petrols and Diesel will be around for awhile but your be paying for them in tax and fuel costs .

 

A garage sells less fuel it's overheads stay the same and the infrastructure to supply the fuel .

 

Fuel stations in time will start to disappear .

 

 

Dave

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8 minutes ago, CommanderDave said:

I don't doubt petrols and Diesel will be around for awhile but your be paying for them in tax and fuel costs .

 

A garage sells less fuel it's overheads stay the same and the infrastructure to supply the fuel .

 

Fuel stations in time will start to disappear .

 

 

Dave

I agree.  Look how quickly 4* leaded fuel disappeared.

 

I volunteer on a steam railway and we're starting to become concerned about supplies of coal in a few years time.  It's possible that we may need to change them over to oil powered - if we can still get the oil!

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3 minutes ago, Will deBeast said:

I agree.  Look how quickly 4* leaded fuel disappeared.

 

I volunteer on a steam railway and we're starting to become concerned about supplies of coal in a few years time.  It's possible that we may need to change them over to oil powered - if we can still get the oil!

 

A bag of Welsh steam coal produces the same carbon as a average car produces in 8 years .

 

This why Steam preservation are also something that the government will be looking at . 

 

Even the Great Dorset they use piles of coal over the week .

 

Interesting times ahead .

 

 

Dave

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11 minutes ago, Will deBeast said:

I agree.  Look how quickly 4* leaded fuel disappeared.

 

I volunteer on a steam railway and we're starting to become concerned about supplies of coal in a few years time.  It's possible that we may need to change them over to oil powered - if we can still get the oil!

 

Switch to electric locos.

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It would help if there was some kind of clear plan set out to show the priorities. Jo Public  could then see that the approach is logical (if it is), and get behind the plan. It should not be too difficult to identify priorities and the interdependence of actions. We all keep saying that sorting Electricity generation and the National grid is priority one. Pushing people out of using the I C Engine is dependent on it. As far as touring caravans and motor caravans is concerned, I think the industry will continue to switch to shared (rented) leisure accommodation. It is already doing so especially in France and Spain, but also here at a slower pace. 

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1 hour ago, GaryB1969 said:

 

It's human nature for a lot of us to fear the worse when we have a lot of unknowns.  We're still very much in the R&D stage and EV's are definitely coming.  I 100% share yours (and others) concerns on pollution and we should support anything that cuts pollution.  However, as a minority group (caravanners) we aren't getting the reassurance that we should be from our supporting associations and clubs.

 

There are road tests creeping through towing caravans but trust me by the time caravaners are involved in the purchase of a BEV towing shouldn't be an issue at all and they'll be a dream to tow your van with. Personally I'll also be very happy not to read anymore discussions on automatic transmissions or DSG gearboxes because you ain't got a gearbox on a EV 👍😂

 

Just think of those low maintenance costs ... Happy days 👍

Edited by Silverback
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2 hours ago, Ern said:

 Electricity generation and the National grid is priority one. 

 

The capacity market should ensure we have sufficient generation, carbon trading should ensure we achieve net zero by 2050.

What replaces gas is still questionable and how high this will push energy bills is not known.

 

What we need to do to the electricity network and how that will be funded is still not known.

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2 hours ago, Silverback said:

 

There are road tests creeping through towing caravans but trust me by the time caravaners are involved in the purchase of a BEV towing shouldn't be an issue at all and they'll be a dream to tow your van with. Personally I'll also be very happy not to read anymore discussions on automatic transmissions or DSG gearboxes because you ain't got a gearbox on a EV 👍😂

 

Just think of those low maintenance costs ... Happy days 👍

 

Skoda offer a service plan for the first two services on the Citigo at about 320 .

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7 hours ago, Wildwood said:

The taxman will have to do something as he gets a very large proportion of his revenue from vehicle road tax and petrol and diesel. Road pricing has been suggested and may come but it would be very expensive to install and unpopular. How it will be done only time will tell.


All cars (apart from electric) under £40k are £145pa (or £135pa for a hybrid), all cars over £40k will add £320.

 

VED take is already at a much higher level than it’s been for nearly two decades.

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1 hour ago, logiclee said:

 

…... carbon trading should ensure we achieve net zero by 2050.

I think carbon trading is an absolute scam. People who don't give a damn about the world but are wealthy enough to pretend to do so, pay money to enable their continued high carbon life style. By doing so the cost of carbon trading goes up.

Someone makes a pile of money, whilst someone else has to pay the real cost. It will not reduce their carbon foot print.

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1 hour ago, Ern said:

I think carbon trading is an absolute scam. People who don't give a damn about the world but are wealthy enough to pretend to do so, pay money to enable their continued high carbon life style. By doing so the cost of carbon trading goes up.

Someone makes a pile of money, whilst someone else has to pay the real cost. It will not reduce their carbon foot print.

COmpletely agree.

 

It lets wealthy green hypocrites to continue flying, whilst telling the 'little people' that their one annual holiday is immoral.

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2 hours ago, CommanderDave said:

 

Skoda offer a service plan for the first two services on the Citigo at about 320 .

 

We'll thats something you need to take up with VW . £160 for a cab pollen filter, vehicle checks and free valet. Basically £100 an hour to check over your vehicle  ... On the plus side no major servicing, no cambelt change, no oil change on your DSG gearbox or engine, no anti pollution auxiliaries, no engine management controls, no injectors, no adblue costs and no anti-pollution test on the MOT.

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7 hours ago, CommanderDave said:

A bag of Welsh steam coal produces the same carbon as a average car produces in 8 years .

 

 

I find this hard to believe if you are referring to carbon dioxide produced. A car doing 10 miles on  a litre of petrol or diesel so over 8 years about 80k miles and 8000 litres which is about 7000 kg of fuel. A bag of coal probably weighs 25 kg. The amount of carbon dioxide from the car will be about 300 times that from the bag of coal.

 

However, if you are referring to the amount of soot put up the chimneys then I can well imagine it to be the case, maybe the steam trains need filters.

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I've been reading this thread with interest, I have recently sold my caravan and my 4.4 Range Rover, my personal transport is now a BMW i3 BEV. I was concerned about range etc so I looked for the middle sized battery option - 94ah and I also found one with the Range Extender ( a 600cc Petrol Generator under the boot floor). My first experience of driving it was when I collected it from Ashford for the drive home to Gainsborough.

I'm totally bowled over by this electric super mini, carbon fibre shell, the performance is very surprising. The range shows around 135 miles ion a full charge, the petrol engine adding another 90 miles on 7.5 litres of useable fuel. My journey home got me to Peterborough Services where I connected up to a fast charger. A McD's was had and a Costa Coffee, returning back car I had 110 miles range showing and cost was £2.90 for the charge. I got home with Range to spare.

My daily operation I have a Polar charging point available, £7 per month and the charge is free, I've done 450 miles this week at £0 for fuel.
I have 2 long trips coming up (Gainsborough to Bristol return and Gainsborough to Bournemouth return), the little beemer plans the route with charging points listed and for me I have no issues with the short stops and a really like the silence and grunt this little beemer has got.
Financially its a no brainer, the £84 per year for the Polar network is less than the cost of one fill up in the Rangie, £0 road tax, insurance halved. Octopus Energy do a sub 5p tariff for charging at home. This little car has ticked many boxes for me, the REX giving me peace of mind if I need to do a sustained long journey.

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A friend of mine has an electric Zoe which he loves, and uses for his job as a driving instructor. From discussing the subject with him it would appear that a different approach to driving is needed, but otherwise there are no real negatives for him.

 

It would appear that the maximum range of an electric car isn't as important as you may assume. Its easy to assume you ned a range of say 350+ miles to equate to your current diesel/petrol car, but with a different mental approach this isn't necessarily true.

 

With a range of say 100 miles, it just takes some forward planning as to how your going to maintain your cars charge. If you have a charger at home then just plug it in every night. Some/most chargers can get the cars battery up to 80% charge in just a few minutes, with the remaining 20% charge taking much longer. So as AJGalaxy mentions above, a quick stop at a charging station with a cup of coffee gets you going again.

 

Plus, how often do you actually use a full tank of diesel/petrol in a single day? Unless its a works car then probably not very often.

 

So for many people they don't need their electric car to have a massive range. If your driving a long way, say from Sheffield to Devon then you just plan beforehand to see where the charging stations are along your route. If a 20 minute charge gets you 100 miles then this should be easily manageable for most of us, especially as lots of supermarkets have charging stations, so you can park up at Tesco, plug in, nip inside to the toilets, buy a choccy bar and a drink, or grab a coffee, or just sit in your car browsing the internet on your phone. If driving from Sheffield to Devon in my diesel car, I would probably have a couple of stops along the way, so I'd just take these stops at charging points.

 

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This experience from actual users will never do, it’s important to perpetuate the tired old arguments against the electric car.

 

My commute doubles shortly, 65 miles a day so it’s time to retire the A2 for high days and look after it and a used Zoe or even a new one is the most likely outcome!

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That's all fine assuming their is a charging point free. Take a busy weekend at our local Tesco and you can have 6 or 7 cars waiting at each pump. 

 

That's bad enough at 5 minutes a car but at 20 mins per charge there needs to be a lot of infrastructure...

 

Quadruple the time and a fifth of the distance would imply a service area with 20 petrol pumps would need 400 charging stations with potential queuing. That's probably bigger than the service area car park and if it it's a bank holiday weekend you'd be queuing to get in the car park!

 

Zapmap says:

 

For those EVs capable of accepting 100 kW or more, charging times are kept down to 20-40 minutes for a typical charge, even for models with a large battery capacity.

 

So that's 500 X 100kw. Will the service area need its own power station?

5 minutes ago, FrankBullet said:

This experience from actual users will never do, it’s important to perpetuate the tired old arguments against the electric car.

 

My commute doubles shortly, 65 miles a day so it’s time to retire the A2 for high days and look after it and a used Zoe or even a new one is the most likely outcome!

I think present users are very happy with electric cars but the main problems begin when it's not a niche market and people need to use them for more than commuting on a nights charge at home.

 

It's probably fair to say that most EV users are  affluent so likely have a drive on which to charge the car but that's not the case for people living in terraced houses or blocks of flats. Anyone here got experience of how this works when you have to park on any nearby available street??

 

I don't believe anyone has properly thought through how it's all going to work when we haven't got a decent petrol car as a backup.

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14 minutes ago, LeadFarmer said:

A friend of mine has an electric Zoe which he loves, and uses for his job as a driving instructor. From discussing the subject with him it would appear that a different approach to driving is needed, but otherwise there are no real negatives for him.

 

It would appear that the maximum range of an electric car isn't as important as you may assume. Its easy to assume you ned a range of say 350+ miles to equate to your current diesel/petrol car, but with a different mental approach this isn't necessarily true.

 

With a range of say 100 miles, it just takes some forward planning as to how your going to maintain your cars charge. If you have a charger at home then just plug it in every night. Some/most chargers can get the cars battery up to 80% charge in just a few minutes, with the remaining 20% charge taking much longer. So as AJGalaxy mentions above, a quick stop at a charging station with a cup of coffee gets you going again.

 

Plus, how often do you actually use a full tank of diesel/petrol in a single day? Unless its a works car then probably not very often.

 

So for many people they don't need their electric car to have a massive range. If your driving a long way, say from Sheffield to Devon then you just plan beforehand to see where the charging stations are along your route. If a 20 minute charge gets you 100 miles then this should be easily manageable for most of us, especially as lots of supermarkets have charging stations, so you can park up at Tesco, plug in, nip inside to the toilets, buy a choccy bar and a drink, or grab a coffee, or just sit in your car browsing the internet on your phone. If driving from Sheffield to Devon in my diesel car, I would probably have a couple of stops along the way, so I'd just take these stops at charging points.

 

There is no doubt that electric cars are absolutely great if your driving pattern is a good match for the car's capabilities.

Unfortunately that is not the case for many people!

If you do not drive far enough the cost per mile saving on fuel will never cover the extra capital outlay on the battery.

Although there are charging points in existence, when on a longer journey do you want, or are you able to, plan your journey to fit in with the charging points? You may be happy with a 20 minute re-charge, but what about when you need to queue?

What do you do if there is not a charging point near your destination?

The cost of an EV is a lot to stake on a bet that the right number of charging points will be built where you are going to want them.

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19 minutes ago, PandR said:

That's all fine assuming their is a charging point free. Take a busy weekend at our local Tesco and you can have 6 or 7 cars waiting at each pump. 

 

That's bad enough at 5 minutes a car but at 20 mins per charge there needs to be a lot of infrastructure...

 

Quadruple the time and a fifth of the distance would imply a service area with 20 petrol pumps would need 400 charging stations with potential queuing. That's probably bigger than the service area car park and if it it's a bank holiday weekend you'd be queuing to get in the car park!


The fundamental basic error in that is none of those cars could refuel whilst sat at home.
 

Yes there are people who can’t but many people will be able to charge their car at home sufficient for their daily use - public charging is by exception. People park in charging bays because a) they can and b) the funding model makes this easy; there will likely be a change to make public charging the exception.

 

Many counties such as the Netherlands easily support charging when you can’t park on your own drive - it’s not that difficult 

 

 

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At the moment the issue is finding a EV that has towing approval as they are rare the Tesla at 80k can tow but reports say although it can tow about 2500 kg just towing a trailer under 700 kg it reduces the range by half .

https://www.practicalcaravan.com/blog/139156-towing-with-electric-cars

 

 

Dave

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1 hour ago, CommanderDave said:

At the moment the issue is finding a EV that has towing approval as they are rare the Tesla at 80k can tow but reports say although it can tow about 2500 kg just towing a trailer under 700 kg it reduces the range by half .

https://www.practicalcaravan.com/blog/139156-towing-with-electric-cars

 

 

Dave

 

I've seen those reports but don't understand them - every petrol and diesel car I've had reduces it's range by a third when towing a caravan (as expected due to greater frontal area and weight) so I don't understand why an EV range should be reduced by much more than that.

 

We also need to remember that EV range in Europe is quoted using the old NEDC* test, which is equally over-optimistic for EVs as ICEs, by about 30% - it may well be that NEDC range needs to be reduced by 30%, to 70% to get real world range, before reducing by a further third to get the towing range, ie 70 > 47%.

 

* present production is tested to WLTP but then converted to NEDC for consistency - WLTP figures only need to be reduced by about 10% to get real world figures.

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I have never understood why an electric cars towing performance is so bad compared with an internal combustion engine but so far this seems to be the case.

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We had a power cut on our estate earlier in the week.  About 800 houses were off for until mid evening but about 120 were off until the morning of the following day.   I know at least two people that have BEV’s in the badly effected area and  noticed they were both still on the drive when I walked to get my paper the following morning. 

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20 hours ago, Black Grouse said:

 

Switch to electric locos.

 

They can't be pure electric so will have to be diesel or diesel electric, that's a bit "frying pan  / fire" so not exactly a long term solution. :rolleyes:

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For me to convert to EV, they need to drop by £30k at least. 

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