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BOAC

Smart Motorways or not so smart?

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50 minutes ago, Talking Flag said:

 

Good one.   I've always kept a hi viz coat in the car in case of breakdown.  It helps to stay warm if you're not going to be in the car!  Where you keep it for quick and easy access is another question.

 

In our case as it's just high viz vests and not jackets one for the driver and one for the front seat passenger reside in the seat back pockets, the driver can reach the one in the passenger seat pocket and the passenger can reach the one in the drivers seat pocket.

 

This is because in France you are supposed to don your high viz before you exit the vehicle.

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If you have an accident where you hit a stationary vehicle it does not matter if you are using a two second or any other rule, you will be judged as at fault. If you cause death or serious injury you will be in court and fined, possibly banned and might even end up in jail, depending on the exact circumstances. You must use good judgement to maintain a safe distance  including having the ability to stop before you hit something if the vehicle in front swerves to avoid a stationary vehicle ahead.

That is the position and no excuses can save you, although you might get away with a plea in mitigation to reduce the sentence in some cases.

 

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28 minutes ago, Wildwood said:

If you have an accident where you hit a stationary vehicle it does not matter if you are using a two second or any other rule, you will be judged as at fault. If you cause death or serious injury you will be in court and fined, possibly banned and might even end up in jail, depending on the exact circumstances. You must use good judgement to maintain a safe distance  including having the ability to stop before you hit something if the vehicle in front swerves to avoid a stationary vehicle ahead.

That is the position and no excuses can save you, although you might get away with a plea in mitigation to reduce the sentence in some cases.

 

A few years ago our friend was travelling behind a vehicle at a safe distance in a 30mph zone when for no reason the car in front braked harshly.  Our friend went into the back of the vehicle however damage was minimal with only a few scratches.  They exchanged details etc.  A few weeks later she got a claim for thousands of pounds for whiplash.  Her insurance were going to give in and pay, but she argued against it and was prepared to go to court.  A few days before the court case, the other side dropped the claim.  TBH I think it was a scam. 

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On 04/02/2020 at 21:22, BOAC said:

 

I am not alone I suspect, however, as I only have a once a year outing to places afar and usually use the A roads how would I know that? Who is going to say "Hey Pete, if you see a red cross on a gantry then ..............................". I just asked my neighbour what it means and he did not know the meaning either, so I am not alone so remain astonished Dave. 

 

VERY worrying indeed! 

 

It is up to everyone to maintain their knowledge base on respect of motoring law. You are in charge of a machine that is more than capable of killing another human being and to fail to stay abreast of motoring law, and what is required of you, as the controller of a lethal machine  is totally and utterly inexcusable. Electricians and gas engineers have to stay abreast of current legislation! This is a perfect example of why drivers should be re-tested every so often rather than being allowed to blithely carry on driving AND PUTTING OTHERS AT RISK due to their ignorance.

 

Ignorance of the law is NO excuse. 

 

The Highway Code is not an expensive publication, perhaps you should buy a modern copy and read it to see how many other things you are ignorant of? 

 

I make NO excuses for the tone of this post,  I have picked up too many dead bodies off the road to have ANY tolerance for ignorance of the law on such vital matters.

 

Andy

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On 04/02/2020 at 00:51, BOAC said:

One thing I didn't know - and I will admit it - that if there is a red cross on a gantry above a lane - get out of that lane double quick - it indicates there is a broken down vehicle in that lane somewhere ahead - not roadworks. 

 

Well to be more accurate, it means everyone must move out of that lane, except me as I will remain in it whilst over/undertaking everyone to get a few places further ahead :D

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54 minutes ago, Durbanite said:

If you have an accident where you hit a stationary vehicle it does not matter if you are using a two second or any other rule

The two-second rule does not apply in this case!  But if you stop suddenly and some clot runs into you he will say, 'why did you stop without warning?'  Unfortunately when there is a multiple pile up and your car is pushed into one in front (when both were stationery), it's very hard to prove and your insurance company will probably no 'knock-for-knock'.

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1 hour ago, The Happy Gnome said:

 

In our case as it's just high viz vests and not jackets one for the driver and one for the front seat passenger reside in the seat back pockets, the driver can reach the one in the passenger seat pocket and the passenger can reach the one in the drivers seat pocket.

 

This is because in France you are supposed to don your high viz before you exit the vehicle.

 

I have a set of 5 Hi-viz vests under the driver's seat as we occasionally travel 5-up - there's also a small first aid kit in the driver's seat and a small fire extinguisher under the front passenger's seat - there's a 2 kilo extinguisher in the boot as well.

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59 minutes ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

VERY worrying indeed! 

 

It is up to everyone to maintain their knowledge base on respect of motoring law. You are in charge of a machine that is more than capable of killing another human being and to fail to stay abreast of motoring law, and what is required of you, as the controller of a lethal machine  is totally and utterly inexcusable. Electricians and gas engineers have to stay abreast of current legislation! This is a perfect example of why drivers should be re-tested every so often rather than being allowed to blithely carry on driving AND PUTTING OTHERS AT RISK due to their ignorance.

 

Ignorance of the law is NO excuse. 

 

The Highway Code is not an expensive publication, perhaps you should buy a modern copy and read it to see how many other things you are ignorant of? 

 

I make NO excuses for the tone of this post,  I have picked up too many dead bodies off the road to have ANY tolerance for ignorance of the law on such vital matters.

 

Andy

Highway Code aside, I would have thought common sense would dictate what a ruddy great red X above a lane means.

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1 hour ago, Mr Plodd said:

The Highway Code is not an expensive publication, perhaps you should buy a modern copy and read it to see how many other things you are ignorant of? 

 

You don't even have to pay for it these days, as long as you have access to the internet.

 

https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/

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19 minutes ago, kelper said:

Unfortunately when there is a multiple pile up and your car is pushed into one in front (when both were stationery), it's very hard to prove and your insurance company will probably no 'knock-for-knock'.

 

A good reason to invest in a dash-cam, at least it will show if you were stationary when hit! 

 

3 minutes ago, Joe1002 said:

 I would have thought common sense would dictate what a ruddy great red X above a lane means.

 

You would like to thing so wouldn’t you, but clearly not according to some of the comments posted!  

 

The worrying thing for me is that these ignorant individuals are out there driving around at the same time as I am. 

 

My rule has ALWAYS been if you break down on a motorway then get out as quickly as humanly possible and get behind the Armco barrier or as far off the carriageway as possible. Also try and leave your car with the steering in full LEFT hand lock so IF it gets punted up the *** it will go OFF the carriageway and not back onto it. 

 

Andy

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4 minutes ago, Joe1002 said:

Highway Code aside, I would have thought common sense would dictate what a ruddy great red X above a lane means.

 

If they didn't know what a red cross means on an overhead gantry, then they presumably wouldn't have the faintest idea what those numbers mean that magically appear occasionally on the gantry. 🙄😕

1 minute ago, Mr Plodd said:

 

A good reason to invest in a dash-cam, at least it will show if you were stationary when hit! 

 

 

You would like to thing so wouldn’t you, but clearly not according to some of the comments posted!  

 

The worrying thing for me is that these ignorant individuals are out there driving around at the same time as I am. 

 

My rule has ALWAYS been if you break down on a motorway then get out as quickly as humanly possible and get behind the Armco barrier or as far off the carriageway as possible. Also try and leave your car with the steering in full LEFT hand lock so IF it gets punted up the *** it will go OFF the carriageway and not back onto it. 

 

Andy

 

 Oi, I was going to say that Mr. P. 😄

 

I've got front and rear facing cameras so the whole story can be told.

 

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1 hour ago, LeadFarmer said:

 

Well to be more accurate, it means everyone must move out of that lane, except me as I will remain in it whilst over/undertaking everyone to get a few places further ahead :D

 YOU can't do that! Audis, B.M.W.s and Mercs only   :rolleyes:

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1 hour ago, Wildwood said:

If you have an accident where you hit a stationary vehicle it does not matter if you are using a two second or any other rule, you will be judged as at fault.

When vehicles are moving insurers may not necessarily see it this way. When a car hit the back corner of our car on the M60 it was their fault but we did not have a witness and their insurer would not accept liability so the insurers went 50/50. The repair to our car was only about £400 though so maybe it was the cheapest option to our insurer and the other car (an old Honda CRV) only had a scratch on the front bumper so was probably not repaired. Afterwards I found the other car was not taxed so wish the police had been called and it might have been crushed.

 

Another time a van went in to the back of Mrs Ps car writing it off and the van driver tried to claim she had reversed in to his van. Fortunately her insurers did not accept this. Another occasion somebody drove in to the back of our parked car and they had not removed the frost from their windscreen  so could not see - the driver accepted responsibility and we had no problem with the insurance claim.

 

I keep hi-viz vests in the front door pockets so they can be put on before getting out of the car.

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18 minutes ago, Flat_at said:

 YOU can't do that! Audis, B.M.W.s and Mercs only   :rolleyes:

Despite the emoji,I personally take offence of/at that remark - I drive both 2001 BMW 330i Touring Automatic and a 2004 Mercedes Benz SLK 230 Automatic :angry:

Not all owners/drivers of those vehicles drive like they have a death wish.

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7 minutes ago, AWanderingLancastrian said:

Despite the emoji,I personally take offence of/at that remark - I drive both 2001 BMW 330i Touring Automatic and a 2004 Mercedes Benz SLK 230 Automatic :angry:

Not all owners/drivers of those vehicles drive like they have a death wish.

 

He typed this on his phone, whilst driving :D

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2 minutes ago, LeadFarmer said:

 

He typed this on his phone, whilst driving :D

 

Oh no he didn't,he is not that stupid - he stopped in the third lane because the hands free kit is in the BMW :lol:

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2 hours ago, The Happy Gnome said:

In our case as it's just high viz vests and not jackets one for the driver and one for the front seat passenger reside in the seat back pockets, the driver can reach the one in the passenger seat pocket and the passenger can reach the one in the drivers seat pocket.

 

This is because in France you are supposed to don your high viz before you exit the vehicle.

Our "high viz" vests are kept in the glove box of the cars, and the over-windscreen locker of the motorhome. All are accessible from within the vehicles and can be donned before exiting. I also carry an additional fully waterproof "canary suit" (waterproof leggings and insulated hooded jacket) in the boot along with a warning triangle (two if towing). 

 

None of which of course are of any use if you break down in a live lane and are hit from behind.

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On 06/02/2020 at 12:26, BOAC said:

Car breaks down - hit by car towing caravan - then watch what happens. Guess what - no hard shoulder. Minister of transport please view. Beginning to 1 minute 20 secs.. Driving to close to the vehicle in front?

Then at 3 mins a blowout on a caravan.

HERE 

Like others I too find the increasing use of smart motorways in the UK a terrifying prospect for drivers so I too have added my name to the petition.

I read this article in the Metro recently and I fear that the proposals will turn sections of our safe motorways effectively into killing zones!

image.thumb.png.94a1e3070fd6b97ba44321c56a1809dd.png

Picture map from the Highways Agency

I accept the environmental argument but do not object in principle to expanding the present motorway network however PLEASE spend our money more sensibly and make our roads safer not more dangerous.

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19 hours ago, kelper said:

The two-second rule does not apply in this case!  But if you stop suddenly and some clot runs into you he will say, 'why did you stop without warning?'  Unfortunately when there is a multiple pile up and your car is pushed into one in front (when both were stationery), it's very hard to prove and your insurance company will probably no 'knock-for-knock'.

I never said what you have quoted.  That came from Wildwoods post?

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Down here in Sussex we have 11 miles of the M23 currently being "upgraded"  to smart motorway.  According to local press one of our local MP's has recently met with Grant Shapps to ask that when the construction phase is complete it is opened as 3 running lanes plus a hard shoulder. Grant Shapps is reported as saying that he wants 'smart motorways' to be demonstrably safer than 'ordinary' motorways.  As construction nears completion it'll be interesting to see what decisions are made about how road is actually used. 

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Dual carriageways are very similar no hard shoulder and few laybys so if you breakdown on one of those your in same position . Having said that I believe the hard shoulder should be only used as originally intended as an area of refuge or for emergency vehicles to get to where needed quickly 

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17 minutes ago, Durbanite said:

I never said what you have quoted.  That came from Wildwoods post?

My apologies.  I quoted the text and the forum software attributed it to you.

4 minutes ago, paul 28 said:

Dual carriageways are very similar no hard shoulder and few laybys so if you breakdown on one of those your in same position . Having said that I believe the hard shoulder should be only used as originally intended as an area of refuge or for emergency vehicles to get to where needed quickly 

Most dual carriageways are not lined with Armco.

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 Sorry didn't realise smart motorways had Armco on nearside if they do surely removing it would give a bit more space to pull over unless there to protect drivers from a steep drop/river

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21 hours ago, kelper said:

The two-second rule does not apply in this case!  But if you stop suddenly and some clot runs into you he will say, 'why did you stop without warning?'  Unfortunately when there is a multiple pile up and your car is pushed into one in front (when both were stationery), it's very hard to prove and your insurance company will probably no 'knock-for-knock'.

Knock for knock is long gone. In multiple collisions it is very difficult for insurers to sort out if you stopped and were pushed forward or hit the vehicle in front and were then hit from behind. It is sometimes possible to get an expert opinion on the damage to see if the damage at the front is consistent with the drivers description, but otherwise unless it is on the a motorway CCTV or the driver has a dash cam, it will probably have to be compromised.

There are also a lot of false whiplash claims and they are very difficult to defend as there is normally no actual medical evidence and the doctor relies on the claimant describing the symptons convincingly. Defending one and getting it wrong is very expensive but insurers are getting better at weeding out the chancers.

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I would not rely on motorway CCTV to provide evidence. When somebody crashed in to us on the M60 I phoned the police about it but they said they only record if an accident has occurred so any initial event is unlikely to be recorded. This was 10 years ago so maybe things are a bit different now.

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