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Hybrid towing 1500cwt caravan?

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32 minutes ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

The emissions aspect can be fairly quickly sorted, the diesel engine would start, be run at optimum RPM for all systems, turbo, dpf, catalytic converter etc. It would be run under maximum load avoiding lightly loaded diesel issues and would run long enough to fully charge the batteries again. 

 

But for PHEV ideally you want to start with a full battery from the mains and then only use the ICE when need which may only be for a little bit of added power. Diesel PHEV's will struggle with NOx doing that unless you use Electricity to pre-heat.

There's just no advantage doing that, you lose most of the efficiency improvements and add in the refinement issues.

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On 11/01/2020 at 01:29, AJGalaxy2012 said:

EV's produce 100% torque from zero RPM to Max, so yes, youre quite right, they will be excellent tow cars.

Yes and at least you will have somewhere to sleep while the batteries are charging !!!

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8 minutes ago, Black Grouse said:

 

IF they need replacing - Nissan have sold 35,000 Leaf EVs globally - they've replace just 3 batteries - all in the USA where temperatures are higher in the southern states (the Leaf battery cooling is inferior to other makes)

Our 2015 Outlander PHEV has 140,000 miles on the clock and running the battery diagnostics shows it has lost 3.7% of it's capacity. I have tried it out locked down to electric only, with heating running and driven 23 miles before the engine had to start.

 

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All car diesels start off cold.  How is a hybrid any worse?

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Just now, James Donald said:

Yes and at least you will have somewhere to sleep while the batteries are charging !!!

What an odd statement, on rapid charger EV's generally charge to 80% in 40 minutes or so. At least with an EV a) you can find a parking space and b) it's close to the door. Many of the charging points are free too!

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40 minutes ago, kelper said:

Mercedes-Benz, Peugeot, Land Rover all make diesel hybrids.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/202001075896473?advertising-location=at_cars

 

There are a few and VAG etc are adding mild Hybrid systems to current diesels to help them through this transition period.

 

But there's very little development of diesel PHEV. 

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I'd have thought a small diesel could warm up very quickly.  They can fit lightweight exhaust manifolds.  And isn't there a time allowed before the engine has to meet emission standards?  I'm amazed how some cars heaters start working in half-a-mile while others take considerably longer.  Computers can predict when the engine will be needed and preheat the inlet manifold electrically.  Diesel fuel will continue to be available as ships burn it in port.  80% of cargo transported in the US is by diesel.

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19 minutes ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

What an odd statement, on rapid charger EV's generally charge to 80% in 40 minutes or so. At least with an EV a) you can find a parking space and b) it's close to the door. Many of the charging points are free too!

 

I have been following the Outlander PHEV on the Outlander Forum for the past 18 months, apparently the Outlander batteries do not like the fast charger?

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2 hours ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

I have to say Im amazed in the lack of Diesel Hybrids. A diesel engine could be run under it's optimum conditions, plenty of heat fed into the DPF to minimise emissions, batteries charged it could then shutdown, all of the drive being accomplished by electric motors.

The latest 2litre TDCI Kuga is a "mild hybrid"

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12 minutes ago, kelper said:

I'd have thought a small diesel could warm up very quickly.  They can fit lightweight exhaust manifolds.  And isn't there a time allowed before the engine has to meet emission standards?  I'm amazed how some cars heaters start working in half-a-mile while others take considerably longer.  Computers can predict when the engine will be needed and preheat the inlet manifold electrically.  Diesel fuel will continue to be available as ships burn it in port.  80% of cargo transported in the US is by diesel.

 

There's just no need to try and manage a cold DPF and SCR on a diesel engines that are being used intermittently. NOx regs are much stricter going forward. Petrol is a much easier option.

Diesel sales continue to drop world wide so there's little appetite from manufacturers to invest in diesel PHEV.

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4 minutes ago, Guzzilazz said:

The latest 2litre TDCI Kuga is a "mild hybrid"

 And Kia Sportage  1.6 and 2.0 Diesel Hybrid

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2 minutes ago, Oscarmax said:

 And Kia Sportage  1.6 and 2.0 Diesel Hybrid

 

Yes there are mild hybrids from nearly every manufacturer, it's the only way they will get diesels through the next round of emission controls and reduce CO2.

 

These mild 48V systems will not allow you to run on electric only so there's no issue with emission system temps.

 

But the 2.0 Sportage mild hybrid still has a CO2 output of 152g/km so is only a short term proposition for Kia,

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6 minutes ago, logiclee said:

 

Yes there are mild hybrids from nearly every manufacturer, it's the only way they will get diesels through the next round of emission controls and reduce CO2.

 

These mild 48V systems will not allow you to run on electric only so there's no issue with emission system temps.

 

But the 2.0 Sportage mild hybrid still has a CO2 output of 152g/km so is only a short term proposition for Kia,

If they will not allow you to " run on electric only  ", even for short distances at low speed, it is stretching a point to call them "hybrid" at all!

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44 minutes ago, Oscarmax said:

 

I have been following the Outlander PHEV on the Outlander Forum for the past 18 months, apparently the Outlander batteries do not like the fast charger?

The batteries (YUASA) are fine with fast charging, I suppose it depends on how fast, Ive had ours connected to the big Nissan Chargers and they charge at 300 amps and more.  When using the fast charger the heat pump starts up straight away to cool the batteries, it does seem to have good battery temperature management. The heat pump is used to provide vehicle heating and air conditioning, it is very efficient the heating working immediately if you havent already heated it up remotely.

 

There is however an issue with BMU (Battery Management Unit) that prematurely ages the battery. It reports to the system when the battery is depleted and needs to start the engine, it artificially raises the flat cell voltage and when it hits that threshold displays flat battery and runs the engine.  This can be reset by the Mitsubishi Dealers or by the 'Lindquist Method'. When we first got our Outlander the range was about 17 miles as opposed to the 29 miles claimed by Mitsubishi. I purchased the ODBII Dongle and downloaded the Watchdog App and sure enough it was switching over to engine way before the batteries were truly discharged. I did the reset, the range was restored and the BMU started to report a fairly true picture of state of battery.

 

I actually reported Mitsubishi to the advertising standards authority for their ridiculous MPG claims 4 years ago, my complaint was upheld and they were made to amend their advertising. That said, I am seriously impressed with this car, its very good even with the engine running and is very well equipped.

Edited by AJGalaxy2012

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6 minutes ago, Stevan said:

If they will not allow you to " run on electric only  ", even for short distances at low speed, it is stretching a point to call them "hybrid" at all!

 

A 48V 0.44kWh battery wouldn't get you very far on electric only.

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6 minutes ago, Stevan said:

If they will not allow you to " run on electric only  ", even for short distances at low speed, it is stretching a point to call them "hybrid" at all!

I agree, they should be able to do meaningful mileages on electric only. I believe many of these low voltage / low power ones are merely to get around legislation and tax etc.

 

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Just now, AJGalaxy2012 said:

I agree, they should be able to do meaningful mileages on electric only. I believe many of these low voltage / low power ones are merely to get around legislation and tax etc.

 

 

They are just to lower CO2 to meet targets, not alot more. A short term fix. 

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1 hour ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

The batteries (YUASA) are fine with fast charging, I suppose it depends on how fast, Ive had ours connected to the big Nissan Chargers and they charge at 300 amps and more.  When using the fast charger the heat pump starts up straight away to cool the batteries, it does seem to have good battery temperature management. The heat pump is used to provide vehicle heating and air conditioning, it is very efficient the heating working immediately if you havent already heated it up remotely.

 

There is however an issue with BMU (Battery Management Unit) that prematurely ages the battery. It reports to the system when the battery is depleted and needs to start the engine, it artificially raises the flat cell voltage and when it hits that threshold displays flat battery and runs the engine.  This can be reset by the Mitsubishi Dealers or by the 'Lindquist Method'. When we first got our Outlander the range was about 17 miles as opposed to the 29 miles claimed by Mitsubishi. I purchased the ODBII Dongle and downloaded the Watchdog App and sure enough it was switching over to engine way before the batteries were truly discharged. I did the reset, the range was restored and the BMU started to report a fairly true picture of state of battery.

 

I actually reported Mitsubishi to the advertising standards authority for their ridiculous MPG claims 4 years ago, my complaint was upheld and they were made to amend their advertising. That said, I am seriously impressed with this car, its very good even with the engine running and is very well equipped.

 

Hi were do you get the dongle from?

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4 hours ago, logiclee said:

 

Being a bit cynical I'd say the massive rise in PHEV's is due to legislation that mandates every manufacturer to achieve an average of 95g/km on the WLTP cycle. 

For the likes of JLR/BMW/Merc etc PHEV is currently the only way to achieve that until the market is ready for a full switch to BEV.

As the legislation is phased in over the next few years the cost for exceeding the limit increases and the offset for zero emmision vehicles decreases. 

I doubt we will have any straight internal combustion engines in passenger vehicles by the end of the decade and we have yet to see any real appetite for diesel PHEV.

I realised later I had missed this.

 

Another thing, councils are making changes for vehicle use to reduce pollution in towns. Some are introducing charges which can depend on the engine emissions such as Leeds for commercial vehicles and taxis, London with the congestion charge and others are looking at banning cars such as Bristol banning diesels for part of the day and now Birmingham is looking at banning private cars going through the centre. Lincoln is building a bypass to reduce traffic going through the town. It is these changes that are likely to push the change to electric and in the shorter term hybrid cars if we all find our older cars can no longer be used.

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24 minutes ago, Paul1957 said:

Another thing, councils are making changes for vehicle use to reduce pollution in towns. Some are introducing charges which can depend on the engine emissions such as Leeds for commercial vehicles and taxis, London with the congestion charge and others are looking at banning cars such as Bristol banning diesels for part of the day and now Birmingham is looking at banning private cars going through the centre. Lincoln is building a bypass to reduce traffic going through the town. It is these changes that are likely to push the change to electric and in the shorter term hybrid cars if we all find our older cars can no longer be used.

 

Although that is starting to have some effect on what people are buying and will affect what manufacturers are offering what we are seeing now with the proliferation of mild hybrid and the increasing PHEV options has been coming for many years. The development and tech is not done over night but over many years.

 

This has been on every manufacturers radar since 2009. What twisted the development somewhat was dieselgate and the massive shift away from diesel.

 

https://ec.europa.EU/clima/policies/transport/vehicles/cars_en 

Edited by logiclee

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45 minutes ago, Oscarmax said:

 

Hi were do you get the dongle from?

Amazon, have a look on the PHEV Watchdog site, theres a list of dongles there.

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Have towed with a Rav4 Hybrid for over 3 years with no issue. Refined and powerful pulling our 1485kg van. Average 25mpg when towing and 45-50 when solo. Absolute no brainer as far as I am concerned. Electronic 4wd as well, back driven my eletric motors only have got us out of some very sticky fields.

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4 hours ago, kelper said:

Mercedes-Benz, Peugeot, Land Rover all make diesel hybrids.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/202001075896473?advertising-location=at_cars


Not sure about the others but PSA (Peugeot Citroen) stopped making diesel hybrids a few years ago - the cost and complexity of achieving EU6 emissions and hybrid Powertrain was making them too expensive.

 

There will be a price point that’s more viable but the current hybrid PSA products are petrol

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18 minutes ago, FrankBullet said:


Not sure about the others but PSA (Peugeot Citroen) stopped making diesel hybrids a few years ago - the cost and complexity of achieving EU6 emissions and hybrid Powertrain was making them too expensive.

 

There will be a price point that’s more viable but the current hybrid PSA products are petrol

 

Most of the new diesel hybrids are mild hybrids that have a small 48V battery that charges with regenerative braking and uses that energy to offset diesel used during acceleration. 

It's a tech to slightly reduce CO2, there's no electrical range.

 

Having electrical range as you say causes major issues with diesel emission controls as DPF and SCR require the engine to be at operating temperature to be efficient.

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1 hour ago, logiclee said:

Having electrical range as you say causes major issues with diesel emission controls as DPF and SCR require the engine to be at operating temperature to be efficient.

 

Surely if it was like the Outlander 20 to 30 miles range a diesel engine would be a good fit? The engine would run at high load for 20 minutes or so which should get the DPF upto temperature and provide optimum conditions for a regen, CATS would be warmed up too. Engine could be optimised for constant speed running with low emissions. With the engine under relatively constant load it should be fairly straight forward to minimise pollution by getting it really efficient. Once the battery was back to 80% or more the engine could then shut down again and the cycle continue. The system could be spec'd so that at say a constant 70mph the engine was enabled to provide the power needed to sustain the relative high speed, the batteries fully charged ready for when it leaves the motorway.

3 hours ago, Oscarmax said:

 

Hi were do you get the dongle from?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B071D8SYXN/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

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