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Hybrid towing 1500cwt caravan?

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29 minutes ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

EV's produce 100% torque from zero RPM to Max, so yes, youre quite right, they will be excellent tow cars.

Being an "excellent" towcar is about a whole lot more than torque! The range issue seems to be progressing well, but the price of big enough batteries is still frightening, particularly for those who want long range, but only occasionally.

And the charging infrastructure is nowhere in site!

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I am going to change my diesel Ford Kuga 150bhp powershift to the new 2.4 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV later this year, I am under no illusion, at present the Kuga 2 litre diesel engine is far superior at towing than the Outlander PHEV, l however only tow a couple of times a year to the New Forest which is 180 miles each way and not too hilly and to several local CL or CMC sites, about 85/90% of my mileage is less than 25 miles. So for me it is a no brainer

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16 minutes ago, Stevan said:

Being an "excellent" towcar is about a whole lot more than torque! The range issue seems to be progressing well, but the price of big enough batteries is still frightening, particularly for those who want long range, but only occasionally.

And the charging infrastructure is nowhere in site!

 

The calculation for EV range suffers from the same over-optimism that official fuel consumption show, as it's the same NEDC/WLTP test - so real world range (solo) is about 75% of the quoted figure while the range towing is likely to be around 50%.

 

I've not come across any discussion about charging for vehicles with trailers, I don't think it's been thought about yet.

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1 hour ago, James Donald said:

We've had a Toyota Estima Hybrid fr 3 yrs.( just sold brought a diesel ) It had no tow rating as such ! I put a towbar on and towed a garden trailer at times and a 12ft dinghy and outboard. No trouble with that, but I was never confident enough to tow our Pegasus Rimini ? It had the 2.4 liter motor same as aCamry  so was quite powerful on petrol, but ran on electric up to 30 mph the both. So it was very Eco round town but no better mpg  in the open Road travel than normal petrol I didn't think? But the thing was as it ran on EV up to 30 mpg if you were starting on a steepish incline or especially with a load in ( seated 7 passengers ) it was only running on electric and I got caught 2 or 3 times where it wouldn't take of so had to run back down onto the flat!!!!! They have 2 electric motor's to one in front and one on the diff at the rear which then gave it 4WD. I was not confident enough t hook up the 1474 kg van in case I ever got caught. Have a Ford Territory 2.7 Diesel 4WD now , no worries. So for normal motoring no real problems but careful on inclines ?.

I have found this link, the Toyota Estima Hybrid was underpower so I am not surprised?

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-reviews/15576/toyota-estima-hybrid

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I'm not sure what this prototype powertrain that your neighbour has but JLR already have a choice of hybrid models.

 

Infact the business model is to be entirely EV or Hybrid within one model cycle. They don't really have a choice as legislation, for the EU at least, mandates all manufacturers to average 95g/km CO2 or less and that starts on a graduated scale from this year.

 

A PHEV with it's relatively small battery would charge off many site hook ups but I've already seen signs up in receptions requesting vehicles are not charged on site.

 

Having recently tried a 530E my next car will probably be PHEV.

 

I've also had a recent discussion with my local Skoda dealer. The new 245PS 1.4TSi Phev being fitted across the range soon looks very promising.

Edited by logiclee
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27 minutes ago, Oscarmax said:

I am going to change my diesel Ford Kuga 150bhp powershift to the new 2.4 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV later this year, I am under no illusion, at present the Kuga 2 litre diesel engine is far superior at towing than the Outlander PHEV, l however only tow a couple of times a year to the New Forest which is 180 miles each way and not too hilly and to several local CL or CMC sites, about 85/90% of my mileage is less than 25 miles. So for me it is a no brainer

It's a pity that the new Kuga 2.5 PHEV can only tow a trailer up to 1200kg mass. The new Kuga 2.0 MHEV can tow up to a 1900kg mass trailer though.

Edited by Legal Eagle

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1 minute ago, Legal Eagle said:

It's a pity that the new Kuga 2.5 PHEV can only tow a trailer up to 1200kg mass. The new Kuga 2.0 MHEV can tow up to a 1900kg mass trailer though.

I having been reading the reviews on the US Ford Escape PHEV it did not fair very well due to all the additional weight of the hybrid system against the 1.5 litre 3 cylinder engine, so I am not surprised it has a 1200 kg limit.

On the CMC site strangely it can tow 1500kg ? 

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4 hours ago, Stevan said:

Being an "excellent" towcar is about a whole lot more than torque! The range issue seems to be progressing well, but the price of big enough batteries is still frightening, particularly for those who want long range, but only occasionally.

And the charging infrastructure is nowhere in site!

You are of course right Steven, lets see if I can add a few more reasons:-

1) 100% Torque from zero RPM, very useful to have full power available for moving off

2) No gear changes - no momentary lapse in acceleration etc, all good for stability

3) Battery Weight - Batteries tend to be heavy and mounted low down, excellent for stability

4) Very quiet - Good on sites, doesnt disturb the neighbours

5) Generally TRUE 4 wd with an effective centre diff done electronically

6) Regenerative Braking - Charges the batteries whilst slowing down, not wasteful like braking and wont suffer brake fade

7) Fuel is cheap - Even when towing it will be much cheaper than petrol or diesel (and greener)

8) Road Tax - £0

 

Theres a few more points for you and I maintain, EV's will make excellent tow cars. Tesla Model X compares favourably price wise to Range Rover (£86,000) and can tow 2250kg. Range solo over 300 miles.

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31 minutes ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

8) Road Tax - £0

VED is zero but still £320 pa to pay for those >£40k list on 2nd year renewal https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tables and the following four.

 

£86k will buy you a house or two in some parts of the country!

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AND don't forget , as well as being great towcars as per above-totally agree with all points, they are an absolute hoot to drive. Have had unlimited access to a Nissan Leaf-the new version but the slower one with lower battery power and it was fantastic fun to drive with all that torque from standstill-enjoyed embarrassing many a cocky Audi and BMW! To 30mph it flew, but tails off after that but top speed of 90mph plenty fast enough imo!! Never tested that but it was absolutely fine on the motorway at legal speeds. 

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30 minutes ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

You are of course right Steven, lets see if I can add a few more reasons:-

1) 100% Torque from zero RPM, very useful to have full power available for moving off

2) No gear changes - no momentary lapse in acceleration etc, all good for stability

3) Battery Weight - Batteries tend to be heavy and mounted low down, excellent for stability

4) Very quiet - Good on sites, doesnt disturb the neighbours

5) Generally TRUE 4 wd with an effective centre diff done electronically

6) Regenerative Braking - Charges the batteries whilst slowing down, not wasteful like braking and wont suffer brake fade

7) Fuel is cheap - Even when towing it will be much cheaper than petrol or diesel (and greener)

8) Road Tax - £0

 

Theres a few more points for you and I maintain, EV's will make excellent tow cars. Tesla Model X compares favourably price wise to Range Rover (£86,000) and can tow 2250kg. Range solo over 300 miles.

1) I have never noticed lack of torque being a problem, even when towing with a small petrol engine.

2) I have never been aware of the need to change gear being a problem.

3) The weight of batteries may help stability, but lugging batteries around hardly makes for energy efficiency!

4) Modern engines are capable of being amply quiet as long as the exhaust is appropriately designed and in good condition.

5) Merely a design feature, and "true 4wd" can be fitted to any powertrain if the makers decide to.

6) Regenerative braking only yields useful amounts of power when braking from high speeds or down long, steep inclines.

7) Currently the fuel is cheap, but who knows how much roadside charging points will charge in the future?

8) Currently, but what government will allow that to continue?

£86,000 is eyewateringly expensive for many of us!

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3 minutes ago, Stevan said:

6) Regenerative braking only yields useful amounts of power when braking from high speeds or down long, steep inclines.

 

 

6) Also works well in stop-start traffic, as the energy regenerated is used for the subsequent acceleration

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46 minutes ago, Black Grouse said:

 

6) Also works well in stop-start traffic, as the energy regenerated is used for the subsequent acceleration

Only if you get a fair speed up between stops! The energy yield from stopping at (say) 10mph is minimal.

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2 minutes ago, Stevan said:

Only if you get a fair speed up between stops! The energy yield from stopping at (say) 10mph is minimal.

 

Braking and acceleration energies are roughly equal regardless of the change in speed - the braking energy recouped from 10 mph is almost enough to accelerate back up to 10 mph

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9 minutes ago, Black Grouse said:

 

Braking and acceleration energies are roughly equal regardless of the change in speed - the braking energy recouped from 10 mph is almost enough to accelerate back up to 10 mph

Yes if the regenerative braking is anywhere near 100% efficient and does all the braking! But back in the real world, most drivers in stop/start traffic accelerate up to speed then coast as far as possible up to the next stop, losing the energy in the coasting stage.

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1 hour ago, Stevan said:

1) I have never noticed lack of torque being a problem, even when towing with a small petrol engine.

2) I have never been aware of the need to change gear being a problem.

3) The weight of batteries may help stability, but lugging batteries around hardly makes for energy efficiency!

4) Modern engines are capable of being amply quiet as long as the exhaust is appropriately designed and in good condition.

5) Merely a design feature, and "true 4wd" can be fitted to any powertrain if the makers decide to.

6) Regenerative braking only yields useful amounts of power when braking from high speeds or down long, steep inclines.

7) Currently the fuel is cheap, but who knows how much roadside charging points will charge in the future?

8) Currently, but what government will allow that to continue?

£86,000 is eyewateringly expensive for many of us!

1) You probably dont but having more available if needed is good

2) It's not a problem but better if you dont have to do it

3) It's more energy efficient than all of the waste heat produced by IC engines

4) Absolutely but not as quiet as electric

5) Yes it can but is often standard on electric cars

6) Wrong, it yields useful power at all times its being used, being very efficient the power saved during slowing down and stopping gets you moving again

7) We dont know just like we dont know whats going happen to the volatile price of oil, price of electricity is more likely to be stable.

8) I would imagine most governments will be lenient for a considerable time

9) £86k is a lot of money agreed but I see many Range Rovers towing and many motor homes around in this price bracket.

I stand by what I said, EV's will be good tow vehicles.

 

40 minutes ago, Stevan said:

Yes if the regenerative braking is anywhere near 100% efficient and does all the braking! But back in the real world, most drivers in stop/start traffic accelerate up to speed then coast as far as possible up to the next stop, losing the energy in the coasting stage.

You must drive in a very strange place, most drivers I see go from accelerator straight to brake pedal no coasting involved. I have driven our PHEV 5 miles in stop start traffic and only lost 5 miles on the range due to regen braking working so well.

2 hours ago, Rodders53 said:

VED is zero but still £320 pa to pay for those >£40k list on 2nd year renewal https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tables and the following four.

 

£86k will buy you a house or two in some parts of the country!

I hadnt seen that tax, I was only going on our PHEV which is £0

 

£86k can buy you a house or two or nearly a motorhome in certail classes.

 

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1 hour ago, Stevan said:

Yes if the regenerative braking is anywhere near 100% efficient and does all the braking! But back in the real world, most drivers in stop/start traffic accelerate up to speed then coast as far as possible up to the next stop, losing the energy in the coasting stage.


Coasting regenerates the battery too, indeed many modern EV’s have a single

pedal mode

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1 hour ago, FrankBullet said:


Coasting regenerates the battery too, indeed many modern EV’s have a single

pedal mode

Our PHEV is almost single pedal mode if you turn regen up to max, I quite like it set like this, makes driving easy.

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On 10/01/2020 at 18:24, FrankBullet said:


Dunno where you get that idea - the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV is rated at 1500kg, the Passat GTE 1600kg (and various VAG models with the same drivetrain at 1400-1600kg).

 

 

That's very low towing capacity. With diesels I would expect them to tow over 2000kg .

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28 minutes ago, AndersG said:

 

That's very low towing capacity. With diesels I would expect them to tow over 2000kg .

Uh? A diesel Up won't tow 2000 kg...

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46 minutes ago, AndersG said:

 

That's very low towing capacity. With diesels I would expect them to tow over 2000kg .

A great many diesel SUVs have a towing limit around 1500Kg! When I was looking for mine this factor reduced my choices significantly.

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2 minutes ago, Stevan said:

A great many diesel SUVs have a towing limit around 1500Kg! When I was looking for mine this factor reduced my choices significantly.

Our Yeti has a towing limit of 2100. Passat and outlander are much bigger cars and with diesels I would be amazed if they did not tow more than 2100 at least with 4x4.

 

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Towload limits are often dictated by engine cooling performance. In the case of a hybrid, which has two modes of propulsion which both have to be packaged under the bonnet, there could be so little air space left in the engine compartment, that cooling becomes a real issue, resulting in a lower towing limit than what one would otherwise expect.

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The current Toyota RAV hybrid can tow 1500kg, apparently pretty well. Thee will be a plug in option later .

Its under £40k for standard hybrid so escapes the extra road tax.

I would consider one if I change, but not in immediate future.

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3 hours ago, AndersG said:

 

That's very low towing capacity. With diesels I would expect them to tow over 2000kg .


I’m not sure it matters though, my Passat is plated to just over 2000kg but there is no chance I would tow a caravan of that size behind it. 1600kg in a Passat GTE would be more than enough, likewise plenty of people seem to be happy to tow with Outlander PHEV’s - it only becomes an issue if you are into dragging bungalows around.

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