Jump to content
guinness

new traffic laws

Recommended Posts

5 minutes ago, Odd days said:

Doing a good deed is getting some shopping for an elderly neighbor not poking your nose into something that is absolutely nothing to do with you.

 A see your getting a bit of " ack,ack flack" Odd's on the suggested Drunk Driver witness post or maybe someone no to well at the wheel . We will never know but answer me this if you drove or walked past a house with smoke rolling out a kitchen window would you call the Fire Service and report a fire ? Just curious that's all ...

 

GAS ...:rolleyes:

  • Like 2
  • +1 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Grumpy Auld Smeesh said:

 A see your getting a bit of " ack,ack flack" Odd's on the suggested Drunk Driver witness post or maybe someone no to well at the wheel . We will never know but answer me this if you drove or walked past a house with smoke rolling out a kitchen window would you call the Fire Service and report a fire ? Just curious that's all ...

 

GAS ...:rolleyes:

It would have to be a lot of smoke as I would have my eyes on the road. If it was that much smoke then they probably knew already.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Odd days said:

It would have to be a lot of smoke as I would have my eyes on the road. If it was that much smoke then they probably knew already.

 

:D .... OK...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been a passenger several times with drivers who frightened me by the risks they took, and I can state catagorically they had not been drinking.  Some drivers do crazy things by their nature. Hammering the alcohol tolerance level down further is barking up the wrong tree IMHO.  More should be done about crazy and illegal driving in itself.

 

The effect of drink varies greatly with the individual.  It is said that drink brings out people's inner nature - eg inherently aggressive people become more aggressive, pessimistic people become more pessimistic and you can argue that pessimism is a good thing when driving - thinking that child might step off the pavement for example. Being sober does not help if you skim along the edge of the pavement where there are children (I often see it) because even the fastest reaction time won't help. Selection for RAF pilots includes personality assessment - it would be no bad thing if that were extended to the driving test.

  • Like 1
  • Confused 1
  • +1 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Bolingbroke said:

I have been a passenger several times with drivers who frightened me by the risks they took, and I can state catagorically they had not been drinking.  Some drivers do crazy things by their nature. Hammering the alcohol tolerance level down further is barking up the wrong tree IMHO.  More should be done about crazy and illegal driving in itself.

 

The effect of drink varies greatly with the individual.  It is said that drink brings out people's inner nature - eg inherently aggressive people become more aggressive, pessimistic people become more pessimistic and you can argue that pessimism is a good thing when driving - thinking that child might step off the pavement for example. Being sober does not help if you skim along the edge of the pavement where there are children (I often see it) because even the fastest reaction time won't help. Selection for RAF pilots includes personality assessment - it would be no bad thing if that were extended to the driving test.

True, a reckless and inattentive driver, even when sober will always be a worse driver than basically good driver with a modest(below the main UK limit) alcohol level.

The evidence is clear cut that excessive alcohol level significantly increases reaction times and impairs judgement.

Quite what can be done about it is difficult, other than to have a sensible legal limit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Stevan said:

The evidence is clear cut that excessive alcohol level significantly increases reaction times and impairs judgement.

 

The evidence is clear cut that any alcohol effects your ability to drive

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

The evidence is clear cut that any alcohol effects your ability to drive

Granted, but what level of alcohol consumption reduces reaction times and judgement such that it becomes a significant factor in road safety?

Given that some people are going to drink whatever legislation is in place (prohibition in the USA proved that), What legal limit is going to have the greatest effect on road safety, bearing in mind that more people are likely to respect a moderate limit than a zero or near zero limit?

  • +1 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Stevan said:

Granted, but what level of alcohol consumption reduces reaction times and judgement such that it becomes a significant factor in road safety?

Given that some people are going to drink whatever legislation is in place (prohibition in the USA proved that), What legal limit is going to have the greatest effect on road safety, bearing in mind that more people are likely to respect a moderate limit than a zero or near zero limit?

 

My personal view is that it has to be zero. Everyone is different on how alcohol affects them so for some people they may be legal after 2 pints whilst others illegal after 1 pint (I dont drink at all so not a problem for me). With this unkown, someone may think it's ok to have a pint of beer and drive, they wont realise the effect it's had on them but general advice may be that 1 pints ok. That 1 pint may affect them more than they realise. Making the limit zero removed that doubt, if youre out in the pub then its coke or orange juice if youre driving. Its the only way to remove the grey area that exists at the moment, make it black and white.

 

  • +1 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

 

My personal view is that it has to be zero. Everyone is different on how alcohol affects them so for some people they may be legal after 2 pints whilst others illegal after 1 pint (I dont drink at all so not a problem for me). With this unkown, someone may think it's ok to have a pint of beer and drive, they wont realise the effect it's had on them but general advice may be that 1 pints ok. That 1 pint may affect them more than they realise. Making the limit zero removed that doubt, if youre out in the pub then its coke or orange juice if youre driving. Its the only way to remove the grey area that exists at the moment, make it black and white.

 

Whilst I am in no doubt that drinking and driving should not mix, and this is a well publicised guideline, there are many people who still insist on drinking and driving. Some of these (many?) drink in moderation and try to stay under the limit, whereas some disregard the legislation completely and drive after drinking to severe excess.

No changes to legislation will alter those in the second group.

The real issue is how to legislate for the greatest impact on road safety.

If the limit were to be revised to zero or near zero would it result more people adopting a no drinking policy making the roads safer, or more people deciding that if even one drink puts them on the wrong side of the law they may as well have as many as they want, making the roads less safe? 

I doubt that there is an easy answer, but I am inclined to believe that the latter would be the case.

Only a draconian approach to enforcement will stop the "one glass with my lunch/dinner brigade".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

The evidence is clear cut that any alcohol effects your ability to drive

Problem is that lots of other things also effect your ability to drive so where do you stop.  Tranquillisers, antidepressants, a heavy cold,  a heavy meal, lack of sleep.   Like one of the previous posters there were a couple of people I worked with that I wouldn’t travel in a car with.  How do you cope with them.

 

Best idea would seem to be wait till the effects of the reduction in the limit in Scotland have been researched and then decide if a reduction in the limit would be worthwhile in the rest of the UK

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Odd days said:

It would have to be a lot of smoke as I would have my eyes on the road. If it was that much smoke then they probably knew already.

Going by some of your comments (if serious since you might just be winding people up) and the flak aimed in your direction, I guess if you were ever struggling or needed some help and somebody offered, you would politely tell them where to go or give them a pile of money as payment.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Eirrab said:

Problem is that lots of other things also effect your ability to drive so where do you stop.  Tranquillisers, antidepressants, a heavy cold,  a heavy meal, lack of sleep.   Like one of the previous posters there were a couple of people I worked with that I wouldn’t travel in a car with.  How do you cope with them.

 

Best idea would seem to be wait till the effects of the reduction in the limit in Scotland have been researched and then decide if a reduction in the limit would be worthwhile in the rest of the UK

It is clear from this thread that nothing will convince the ‘zero’ brigade that their desired assault on the freedom of the “one glass with lunch/dinner brigade”, of whom I am one, and who are no real threat has been proven to be draconian and unnecessary by the unambiguous evidence of the Scottish changes. Nothing will convince these sorts of bigoted people.

3 hours ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

The evidence is clear cut that any alcohol effects your ability to drive

The evidence is clear that many factors have some effect on your ability to drive, so how about a slightly more reasoned approach that considers whether that risk is actually significant. If one were to follow your overly simplistic analysis we need to ban a whole host of other activities and stimulants that also affect your ability to perceive and react to hazards while on the road. 

Edited by Fat Albert
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

Its the only way to remove the grey area that exists at the moment, make it black and white.

 

The legal limit is already black and white.

  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Fat Albert said:

The legal limit is already black and white.

Is it really ? How much can I drink and still be legal to drive?

 

 

5 hours ago, Fat Albert said:

It is clear from this thread that nothing will convince the ‘zero’ brigade that their desired assault on the freedom of the “one glass with lunch/dinner brigade”, of whom I am one, and who are no real threat has been proven to be draconian and unnecessary by the unambiguous evidence of the Scottish changes. Nothing will convince these sorts of bigoted people.

 

It's also quite clear there are members here that condone driving whilst their ability is impaired by alcohol. No changing these drink drive people either who believe their ability to drive is not impaired by alcohol despite overwhelming evidence showing that it is.

 

 

5 hours ago, Fat Albert said:

The evidence is clear that many factors have some effect on your ability to drive, so how about a slightly more reasoned approach that considers whether that risk is actually significant. If one were to follow your overly simplistic analysis we need to ban a whole host of other activities and stimulants that also affect your ability to perceive and react to hazards while on the road. 

How do you determine significant? if only 1 death per year is caused by drinking and driving whilst under the limit? 5?, 10? where is the line that you find acceptable? The fact that other things may impair your ability to drive is irrelevant to this argument the fact is alcohol impairs your ability to drive and accidents happen without any such impairment. Give everyone a fighting chance here, ban drinking and driving.

  • +1 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Eirrab said:

Best idea would seem to be wait till the effects of the reduction in the limit in Scotland have been researched and then decide if a reduction in the limit would be worthwhile in the rest of the UK

 

Research shows the accident rate wasn't reduced https://discover.dc.nihr.ac.uk/content/signal-000815/scotland-drink-drive-limit-reduction-did-not-lower-accidents

  • +1 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm trying to find a good definition of 'bigot'.  In forums it seems to be used to describe someone with strong opinions that you do not agree with.  If you call people bigots how are you certain that it is not being hypocritical?  For this reason, I don't use the word myself.  ;)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

Is it really ? How much can I drink and still be legal to drive?

 

 

 

It's also quite clear there are members here that condone driving whilst their ability is impaired by alcohol. No changing these drink drive people either who believe their ability to drive is not impaired by alcohol despite overwhelming evidence showing that it is.

 

 

How do you determine significant? if only 1 death per year is caused by drinking and driving whilst under the limit? 5?, 10? where is the line that you find acceptable? The fact that other things may impair your ability to drive is irrelevant to this argument the fact is alcohol impairs your ability to drive and accidents happen without any such impairment. Give everyone a fighting chance here, ban drinking and driving.

As a start, do you accept the evidence from Scotland proves that reducing their alocohol limit has had no discernible effect on the accident rate? If not then there is no point continuing the argument as you won’t accept an evidence based approach.
It is simply ridiculous to say that anything that has any effect whatsoever, however minimal, on your ability to drive merits a ban. A cold: hay fever: being a little tired: preoccupied with something else: noisy children in the car: the radio - I could go on - by your criteria for reducing the alcohol limit to zero all these ought to result in a ban on driving.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Fat Albert said:

As a start, do you accept the evidence from Scotland proves that reducing their alocohol limit has had no discernible effect on the accident rate? If not then there is no point continuing the argument as you won’t accept an evidence based approach.
It is simply ridiculous to say that anything that has any effect whatsoever, however minimal, on your ability to drive merits a ban. A cold: hay fever: being a little tired: preoccupied with something else: noisy children in the car: the radio - I could go on - by your criteria for reducing the alcohol limit to zero all these ought to result in a ban on driving.

What's the difference between one person not accepting evidence from Scotland and another not accepting evidence that any alcohol consumption impacts ones ability to drive?  Both are evidence based approaches... If you make an argument please be consistent, otherwise it's just your opinion!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No one can say with any degree of accuracy how much it is 'safe' to drink before driving (or how long after drinking it is safe to drive. For this reason the advice from Government has always been not to drink and drive.

 

A persons metabolism will determine at what rate the alcohol is metabolised from the bloodstream. There is no fixed rate. An individuals metabolism can vary day to day and is dependant upon many factors. Eating can reduce the speed at which alcohol is absorbed into the bloodstream but this is not a guarantee that it would be safe to drink with a meal then drive.

 

Body mass and other general health conditions can also have an effect, either to speed up or slow down absorbtion.

 

Hence the question 'How much can I drink and be safe to drive' becomes a hypothetical one. Anyone asking that question and expecting a simple answer is deluding themselves.

 

The standard of driving in this country varies so much that one person just below the legal limit may well still be a better driver with faster reactions than another who has zero alcohol in their system.

 

Perhaps compulsory re-testing might have a greater effect on accident reduction than reducing the blood alcohol level to zero.

 

A comedian once said 5% of injury accidents are caused by drink drivers, so 95% must be caused by people who are sober. So for safer roads ban the sober ones!  (Not saying I agree,,,but it does show how statistics can be used to prove anything you want!)

Edited by reluctant
  • +1 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But banning 95% of drivers WOULD make the roads safer.  So it's not as silly as it sounds.

  • +1 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Guzzilazz said:

What's the difference between one person not accepting evidence from Scotland and another not accepting evidence that any alcohol consumption impacts ones ability to drive?  Both are evidence based approaches... If you make an argument please be consistent, otherwise it's just your opinion!!!!

I have been consistent. I haven’t denied that alcohol might have some impact, even if minimal and statistically irrelevant in the bigger scheme of things. I am trying to argue that the actual level of risk is not enough to demand a zero limit especially when compared with other factors that have a similar effect on one’s cognitive ability. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, AJGalaxy2012 said:

Is it really ? How much can I drink and still be legal to drive?

 

 

 

It's also quite clear there are members here that condone driving whilst their ability is impaired by alcohol. No changing these drink drive people either who believe their ability to drive is not impaired by alcohol despite overwhelming evidence showing that it is.

 

 

How do you determine significant? if only 1 death per year is caused by drinking and driving whilst under the limit? 5?, 10? where is the line that you find acceptable? The fact that other things may impair your ability to drive is irrelevant to this argument the fact is alcohol impairs your ability to drive and accidents happen without any such impairment. Give everyone a fighting chance here, ban drinking and driving.

 

AJGalaxy2012. You posted “Is it really ? How much can I drink and still be legal to drive?” The answer is that is your responsibility to abide by the black and white law. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
3 hours ago, Fat Albert said:

 

AJGalaxy2012. You posted “Is it really ? How much can I drink and still be legal to drive?” The answer is that is your responsibility to abide by the black and white law. 


Unfortunately the law isn’t black and white, one person can have a pint or two and even though they are not over the legal limit of 35, be impaired sufficiently to be unsafe to drive.

Another person can have 5 pints, blow over 35 but actually be safer than the first example.

If you managed to get home without being stopped, you then have to take into consideration how quickly an individual absorbs the alcohol before the level drops below the legal limit, every one is different, so again it’s not black and white.

 

4 hours ago, reluctant said:

Hence the question 'How much can I drink and be safe to drive' becomes a hypothetical one. Anyone asking that question and expecting a simple answer is deluding themselves.


I think if you bother to read AJ Galaxy’s other posts you will see it was a rhetorical question,  as he has all along advocated a zero limit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I disagree.  The law says you must not drive with over 0.08% alcohol in your blood.  That is the law in black and white.  It does not say anything about impairment; the offence is committed regardless of what effect the alcohol has on you.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
13 minutes ago, kelper said:

I disagree.  The law says you must not drive with over 0.08% alcohol in your blood.  That is the law in black and white.  It does not say anything about impairment; the offence is committed regardless of what effect the alcohol has on you.  

 

Another insightful reply but totally out of context, the question asked was "How much can I drink and still be legal to drive?”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...